I got on a set for research and...

[harmonica44]

Well they shot the movie with no lighting and just used the lights from the ceiling that came with the building. And they didn't put any blankets up for reducing echo in dialogue. I asked the director and he says that he couldn't have much control over lights for such a low budget and will deal with the look in post. I asked him about how he reduces echo, and he says that with his shotgun mic, he doesn't have any echo problem. He says he sometimes has to add echo in post just to make it sound more realistic. It could be cause his shotgun looked to be a very cheap one, and didn't have much good quality sound for echo but I'm just merely guessing and am probably wrong.

So finding a set to get on, in my area is tough, since most people do not shoot things here. But I feel I didn't learn anything and am even more confused. I guess everyone has there own way of doing things. He's done shorts before and music videos, so he knows what's he's doing. But since I am more confused now, what's there to learn from this experience I could put to use or something?

 

[WalterB]

Well they shot the movie with no lighting and just used the lights from the ceiling that came with the building. And they didn't put any blankets up for reducing echo in dialogue. I asked the director and he says that he couldn't have much control over lights for such a low budget and will deal with the look in post. I asked him about how he reduces echo, and he says that with his shotgun mic, he doesn't have any echo problem. He says he sometimes has to add echo in post just to make it sound more realistic. It could be cause his shotgun looked to be a very cheap one, and didn't have much good quality sound for echo but I'm just merely guessing and am probably wrong.

So finding a set to get on, in my area is tough, since most people do not shoot things here. But I feel I didn't learn anything and am even more confused. I guess everyone has there own way of doing things. He's done shorts before and music videos, so he knows what's he's doing. But since I am more confused now, what's there to learn from this experience I could put to use or something?

There are a few 'think-errors' here:
1) Audio is not about how the mic looks, it's about how the recording sounds
2) In another thread you asked how you can remove echo. A part of the anwser is using blankets. However, this does not mean everyone is using blankets to reduce echo. In a lot of cases the audio gets recorded properly with emptying your bedroom on the set
3) You seem to believe there is only one way to do things, but that's not true. Filmmaking is also about finding the best possible solution. No money for lights?: use available lights. Can't build a spaceship? Don't use a spaceship

About planning vs doing:
Planning is good, but if you get confused about every detail, you will never end the planning stage.
"Oh no, what brand of grease should I get for the dolly?" will not help your short, it will just delay it.
In the end you have to do something.
Especially if you want or need to do a lot of the technical things yourself, you must do things to know what works best.
I can tell you on a forum how to play 'stairway to heaven', but reading it and thus 'knowing' it, doesn't mean you can do it right the first time you do it. (The sex comparison was better I think )

A graduated from the Willem the Kooning Academie.
During my stay at artschool I made over 20 'things' ranging from shorts and documentairies to motion graphics and vague experimental animations.
The very first thing we (we were 'forced' to work together ) made was planned and shoot within 2 days. We didn't edit it, since we didn't know how to edit. We just edited in camera: shooting 1 take of every shot in the right order. We did a 'dollyshot' on a skateboard (terribly shaky) and the rest was handheld as well. It's fun to look and the 'punchline' was good for a big laugh in class. (It was the Shakespear assignment: you have a week to shoot something from Shakespear and every other group was really serious, lol).
After that we worked for 2 months (about 2 days per week) on our first short. Back then it was great, we scored an A. Looking at it now, I must say it's too long, has a pretentious intro, the acting is terrible, in some shots the microphone is visible (barely, but still visible: we wrapped a white towel around the mic as windshield and this white towel hides it as the sky is blownout white. The cameraman never saw it happen on the black and white viewfinder of the digital8 camera.)
But is was a great way to learn things: going step by step, making storyboards, scouting locations, we even tested the storyboard as we scouted the locations.
So, yes, we did the best we could, but no, it's not a true masterpiece

I should open a youtube account dedicated to these artschoolprojects...

------------------

You say you feel you didn't learn anything.
Did you observe how the director and crew communicate. What roll everyone was 'playing' on set?
Or were you just focussing on the technical side of things?
Maybe the lesson you can learn is that sometimes you just have to roll with what you got (and not panic about it).

Good luck with your first shooting day!

 

[Synia]

My first film was by far my most expensive. I hired a mostly pro crew and used them as film school. It's a pretty good first film, but certainly has a lot of problems as well. However, I learned a huge percentage of what you need to know to be a successful filmmaker. I didn't learn it all, and never will, but like I said it was 4 month film school that cost me about $5K. There are a lot of ways to skin that cat, and all can work in the right situation.

Point made. I take back what i said about not spending money on your first film. I just never had that kind of money... i'm too poor, -sigh-

For me, after making several short films, and making 10, 20 motion graphic ad kind of thing, winning a few small competiton, the only thing i paid money for was a big piece of green fabric to use as green screen which costed about $60.

Care to spare me a few bread crums next time your wallet feels too heavy?

Haha, I'm kidding.

 

[harmonica44]

Well one thing I've learned from making my first real short film, with an actual story, and real actors so far, is that everything takes longer than I thought. I was told by some on here to get as many takes as I can, and I wanted to get 12-20 of each shot from each angle, so I would have plenty of coverage. Boy was I wrong. I can only get 3-4 takes tops, then you have to play it back, see if one of those takes is good enough, and move on, otherwise you won't get a scene finished in a day.

The lighting and sound testing before shooting, takes just as much time or probably even more, then the shooting itself. I also have to learn how some crews work 12 hour days. Having to shoot a scene for that long, the day changes. The sunlight alters, and so could the whether, which ruins the continuity of the scene, so you gotta move quicker. You also got to stick to the shot list, and any other angles you want to do more takes at for coverage, will have to wait, to see if you even have time at the end, which so far I haven't. Otherwise stick to the shot list and get a few takes of each.

 

[WalterB]

You wanted 20 takes of each shot?
I guess you should be able to calculate that that takes a lot of time.
Let's say 1 shot is 30 seconds. 45 with 'preroll'.
You need to get everybody focussed: 30 seconds.
Review or rethink after the cut 1 minute.
Explain what you want changed in the next shot 1 to 4 minutes.

20 takes of 30 seconds would take between 50 and 120+ minutes!

But congratulations!
You finally gained some real experience

 

[dlevanchuk]

Well one thing I've learned from making my first real short film, with an actual story, and real actors so far, is that everything takes longer than I thought. I was told by some on here to get as many takes as I can, and I wanted to get 12-20 of each shot from each angle, so I would have plenty of coverage. Boy was I wrong. I can only get 3-4 takes tops, then you have to play it back, see if one of those takes is good enough, and move on, otherwise you won't get a scene finished in a day.

The lighting and sound testing before shooting, takes just as much time or probably even more, then the shooting itself. I also have to learn how some crews work 12 hour days. Having to shoot a scene for that long, the day changes. The sunlight alters, and so could the whether, which ruins the continuity of the scene, so you gotta move quicker. You also got to stick to the shot list, and any other angles you want to do more takes at for coverage, will have to wait, to see if you even have time at the end, which so far I haven't. Otherwise stick to the shot list and get a few takes of each.

Sweet! Glad to see you made it alive
Agree with you on time constrain. There is never enough time to be playing around outside
How do crews get to work 12 hour days? They carefully plan our their shot sequence, strictly stick to the schedule and be ready to become an asshole on the set, because you costantly have to drag people behind you to make em work faster.

contrats!

 

[voodoogmr]

Here is how I speed up my shoots. Pretty much common sense...

1.) Make a shot list for the entire film.
2.) Divide up the shots based on their locations.
3.) Then divide them up based on camera angles and what actors are in the scene.
4.) Order the setups to work around actor schedules, daylight, and other variable factors.

This will minimize the number of lighting changes, etc. Keep those to an absolute minimum and it will save you a whole lot of time.

If using sunlight, I always have to plan around that so I get the shots I need outdoors all at once. Yes, it can be a pain, especially when you have lots of clouds floating by that are constantly changing the light levels. Honestly, I hate shooting outdoors.

One thing I will have to respectfully disagree with is being an a-hole on set. In my experience, that just makes people mad and uncooperative, especially if they are working for free or low fees. Instead, plan the shoot well and be respectful of your cast's and crew's time. If you know what you are doing and act prepared, that will keep everyone calm. Be gentle, yet firm, with everyone. This isn't always easy, but you'd be surprised by how effective a "please" can be when barking out direction. This is how I do it, and I have had every single actor say that shooting with us is the best experience they've ever had on a set. They all want to work with us again and, to me, that is what makes a great relationship.

Keep it up!

 

[Synia]

Well one thing I've learned from making my first real short film, with an actual story, and real actors so far, is that everything takes longer than I thought. I was told by some on here to get as many takes as I can, and I wanted to get 12-20 of each shot from each angle, so I would have plenty of coverage. Boy was I wrong. I can only get 3-4 takes tops, then you have to play it back, see if one of those takes is good enough, and move on, otherwise you won't get a scene finished in a day.

The lighting and sound testing before shooting, takes just as much time or probably even more, then the shooting itself. I also have to learn how some crews work 12 hour days. Having to shoot a scene for that long, the day changes. The sunlight alters, and so could the whether, which ruins the continuity of the scene, so you gotta move quicker. You also got to stick to the shot list, and any other angles you want to do more takes at for coverage, will have to wait, to see if you even have time at the end, which so far I haven't. Otherwise stick to the shot list and get a few takes of each.

Congrtats!!! You actually shot something!! Excellent observation, what you said is absolutely spot on.

Now just a heads up, however long it took you to shoot your movie, it's going to take you just as long to edit (EDIT: I meant to say, it's going to take you even longer to edit). Especially if you want to do special effects.

The very first time i did special effect in AE, i average about 1 hour of editing time per frame. Yes, 1 hour = 1 frame, 1 frame = 1/29th of a second movie time.

 

[harmonica44]

Oh yeah, I know I will have a lot more to do in the editing. I can tell that just from the mistakes I've made so far that need correcting.

One thing that takes a lot of time is adjusting the levels on the sound recorder. Every time the mic is boomed in a different angle and position of the room, the levels change, and I have to readjust them each time we switch angles. Adjusting them can take 4-5 minutes, since I have to play around with the dials for that long, to figure out which levels will provide the cleanest sound. The actor I got to hold the boom sometimes will move the boom, trying to get a better angle, but I have to adjust the levels every time they do that. So I gotta be more adamant about not moving it, while shooting.

 

[wheatgrinder]

hum.. some overhead (head room) for sound would be good. If your working in 24bits and have a decently noise free signal chain, you should be able to have a lot more dynamic range in the audio. (quite\to loud) The distance and position of the mic is more important constant then the level.

There is a common technique when you have the gear that supports it. you take the same MIC and input it into TWO different channels on the recorder. One is set to optimal gain, with typical conversation, the other channel is set to not PEAK under the worst yelling.. that way you have a safe track for the transients (intermittent loud bits that might distort if too the sound gets too loud)

 

[gorillaonabike]

Oh yeah, I know I will have a lot more to do in the editing. I can tell that just from the mistakes I've made so far that need correcting.

One thing that takes a lot of time is adjusting the levels on the sound recorder. Every time the mic is boomed in a different angle and position of the room, the levels change, and I have to readjust them each time we switch angles. Adjusting them can take 4-5 minutes, since I have to play around with the dials for that long, to figure out which levels will provide the cleanest sound. The actor I got to hold the boom sometimes will move the boom, trying to get a better angle, but I have to adjust the levels every time they do that. So I gotta be more adamant about not moving it, while shooting.

So out of pure curiosity - when is the final edit coming through? I reckon mine will be 1st December.

 

[harmonica44]

So out of pure curiosity - when is the final edit coming through? I reckon mine will be 1st December.

Not sure, but probably January.

hum.. some overhead (head room) for sound would be good. If your working in 24bits and have a decently noise free signal chain, you should be able to have a lot more dynamic range in the audio. (quite\to loud) The distance and position of the mic is more important constant then the level.

There is a common technique when you have the gear that supports it. you take the same MIC and input it into TWO different channels on the recorder. One is set to optimal gain, with typical conversation, the other channel is set to not PEAK under the worst yelling.. that way you have a safe track for the transients (intermittent loud bits that might distort if too the sound gets too loud)

I'm not sure what you mean. The mic is already plugged into two different channels with a Y-cable. Are you saying to adjust one of the channels completely different than the other? Won't that result in very mono-ish sound, instead of stereo, if that's okay?

 

[Alcove Audio]

The mic is already plugged into two different channels with a Y-cable. Are you saying to adjust one of the channels completely different than the other? Won't that result in very mono-ish sound, instead of stereo, if that's okay?

Have you paid attention to one freaking word I've typed over the past months? DIALOG IS RECORDED AND PLAYED BACK IN MONO. Wheat described a very common practice that gives you options, and in filmmaking - and with many other endeavors - it pays to have options.

 

[harmonica44]

Sorry right, you did say that. I've been trying to take in so much info the past few months, Not just on here, but other articles and sources as well. Sorry I forget some things. Thanks.

This sounds like a really good idea, and didn't know I could do it at the same time with both trims changed so much! After all the research I did, this is the first I've heard of this. So after I have adjusted both trims for two different levels, is there certain levels I'm suppose to set the level knob on, for this to work properly? I'm practicing it on my recorder right now, and trying to figure it out. So what's this method called?

 

[WalterB]

..........So what's this method called?

Clever cheating

But perhaps 'fail-safe' is a better way to discribe it.

Although it may be convinient to have the same levels and content on left and right to 'save' time in post, but it's wiser to get the same content at different levels to avoid peaked (distorted) sound.
Don't forget to make the good recorded channel mono in post, otherwise all dialogue will sound on the left or right side of the screen...

 

[PaulGriffith]

A y-splitter into you recorder from a mic is a terrible idea.

If you're using phantom power you're screwing with it and you're cutting the mic's signal in half.

Just go straight into channel 1. Set your recorder to mono and you don't need to fill both channels. It'll record a mono file you won't have to touch in post (trying to isolate channels).

Besides. The exact same feed into two stereo channels is still Mono. You're just making extra work and way more noise.

 

[harmonica44]

I was told on here before though, that my recorder, the FR2LE, can only record in stereo. If I try to set it to mono, then it sounds like only half of it is there, cause there is no sound going into the other channel. Unless I'm doing something wrong. I was told before to get a Y cable cause I can only record in stereo.

If I do record on stereo with both channels at different levels, there is one thing I still can't figure out. There are the mic trim dials for the left and right channel. Then there is the big level knob. This is what's taking so long on set. I have to figure out where to set the mic trim knob, as oppose to the level knob. Like one time when I had the mic pointed down towards an actors facing, the west side of the room, I had to turn the trim all the way up and and the bigger level knob almost all the way down. Then when I rotated the mic about 90 degrees to the east, I had to set the knobs in the opposite positions to avoid echoing.

I don't understand the concept to this. What is the difference between the level and the trim? And what is the concept as to why one knob has to be turned to a certain degree, as oppose to another knob, depending on what direction of the room the mic is pointed at. Half the time on set is fiddling with both knobs, until I find the right sound, every time the mic has to be moved! I could probably take less the five minutes to find the right sound gain, if I knew the concept of the dials, what they are doing, and how one effects the other exactly. The instruction book does not say and I cannot find any websites that explain the concept of the relationship between the two exactly.

And if using a Y-cable, is a bad idea, then how do I get keep from peaking, when a character goes from speaking at a normal voice, to screaming? If I set it to not peak at screaming, then all the quieter dialogue is too quiet.

 

[PaulGriffith]

If it only records stereo, then just record the one channel and in post you make it mono/delete the other channel.

If someone gets louder position the mic different, move it back or realtime fade it down. That's why there are boom op's AND mixers.

I've done audio wilds too where someone whispers one line so you move the mic right infront of her face, not rolling video.

But the whole Y thing isn't the way to go. Definitely fix the channel in post, not Y it into two inputs. You can use a secon mic in the other input, not the same one.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. So how long should it take to shoot a 3-4 page dialogue scene? My next shoot is tomorrow, and I hope I don't go overtime again. I wanna plan it as accurately as possible. I have probably 6 hours max before day turns to night, in order to finish the scene. I have made a shot list, but still want to do mulitple takes, at least 3-4 till I get at least one good enough to use one, in the time alotted.