Febbuary filosophizing

[Nate North]

Way back in the last century, when I studied theatre lighting I was particularly taken by one lighting technician saying "you'll know you've lit the stage perfectly when nobody notice the lighting." And I fully appreciate that the same thing goes for a good great soundtrack.

Seperate topic, and very counterintuitive for people early in their careeer, but this is the actual pro level advice. For many jobs in cinema, you're only really nailing it when they never notice you were there at all. The viewer is trying to enjoy the story, any time your contribution steals attention from that story instead of subtly enhancing it, it's a mistake. Mark Isham is a fair example of someone who nails this. You could call his soundtracks "forgettable" but they do exactly what they are supposed to, without stealing the spotlight.

What I'm seeing, though - or at least wondering about - is that it is the viewers that are accepting a low bar. There's no need for production houses to spend quite as much as the scene demands when the public is only half-watching, half-listening to whatever is on the screen.

Sure, I get what you mean, though it varies from tier to tier. Does a car have to be good for people to buy it? Kind of, not really. It needs to be ok. Does a formula 1 car HAVE to be good? Absolutely, no question. Point is, I'm not sure we can lump Avengers Endgame in with Property Brothers. I think it's more fair to say that expectations are often set relative to the source. It's kind of a weird phenomenon, the elasticity of our ratings of things, and how skewed that appears from a meta perspective. If you sit down at a county fair, and watch a guy play an old beat up acoustic guitar, and he's really nailing it, doing some impressive things, we would rate that performance 9/10. If you saw Pavoratti singing with the London Philharmonic, you'd rate it a 9/10. There is an immense different in the amount of talent and effort on display. One is the aggregateed effort of over 100 people, many of which trained since childhood to reach the highest rank worldwide in their craft. The other is a single person who bought a guitar and practiced hard for 10 years. If you asked people that saw both performances, they could absolutely tell you that the philharmonic performance was an order of magnitude greater, but if you simply went by the "out of ten" scorecard, they appear equal.

I think that part of the answer to my original question is that our media is now driven by algorithm, and while we can tell the difference between a banjo and an orchestra, the algorithm cannot tell the difference between a 9 and a 9.

This video really illustrates what's wrong with that. People don't always get what I'm upset about, but on a financial level, that network robot is really, really, screwing over that orchestra. Let's say you took those 100 musicians, the conductor, the stage lighting crew, etc and gave them a score of 9 per person, same for the one guy with the guitar. Now you see a more realistic score difference, 9 vs 927. I think people absolutely see the difference, but since all our video recommendations come from automated systems that can't see the difference, we have situations like the one in the video here, wherein an idiot making a box of trash gets paid the salary of 1000 Beethovens.

But do they, really? I follow one particular YT channel for very specific reasons (and ulterior motive!), one that revolves around a French chateau renovation project. There are about a dozen other chateau renovation channels linked, and the comments reveal that hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people watch all of these, despite the desperately bad production values. Given amount of padding on each of these videos, when do these people find the time to watch "real" movies? From what I've observed amongst family and friends, the closest they come to it is a group excursion to the local multiplex to "enjoy" the lastest blockbuster to the sound of popcorn, random belching, and illicit phone conversations.

I think the value of any one entertainment product is quite multidimensional. The Sound of Music, The Great Escape, or Goodfellas are all films people like based on their quality, but for formula one enthusiasts, Stallone's driven might have been a more exiting watch, as if addressed their very specific fantasy, similar to the purpose the Fast and Furious saga did for teens with a 6th grade education and 90,000 dollars to spend fixing up a 12,000 car. By the way, no one should ever watch Stallone's "Driven", it's terrible.

 

[Nate North]

You've got to be kidding.

Yeah, that probably didn't come across as I meant it. I only have so much stamina per hour to explain my thoughts, and that line does sound suspect. What I mean is that I have the same IQ blindness that affects everyone else. It's becoming a known phenomenon that people can't make out much detail outside of a 15% range (both ways, total 30) of their own level. Steven Hawking probably stared blankly at Johnny Knoxville's antics, unable to comprehend why he was doing any of it, or why anyone was watching. That's how I feel when I watch the weird country music fetish band in the video above, or looking at politicians. MTG can see a Nobel prize winning physics professor, but to her it's just a guy making random squiggles on a chalkboard. She could never in a million years explain to you the difference between Franz Liszt and Modest Mussorgsky.

I'm really not sure how much malice aforethought was present in each case. No one actually knows, regardless of how many people say they do. Prosecutors have always seemed extremely stupid to me, because in court they always shout with confidence about what they think someone was thinking. It's literally impossible to know that, but they just blow past it and claim telepathy, and the crowd seems unphased. "Mr Phillips, wanted him dead, needed him dead, and then planned in secret for years to kill him. He lifted the axe, and then relishing the bloodlust within his black heart, he swung down, killing his victim as he fantasized about how much the widow would suffer" then they adjust their 300 dollar tie and sit down as though they just dropped the mic at a rap concert. Later on you find out the guy he was talking about was on video at an Applebee's in Paraguay at the time of the murder in New Jersey. Despite being caught in a direct lie, pretending to know information they didn't, endangering the life of an innocent person out of a selfish need to appear confident and win cases, that prosecutor always walks away with their head held high, proud of what they did, because they aren't always bright enough to know that it's wrong. A few cases later, you can catch that same guy aggressively prosecuting someone for confidently lying to boost their corporations stock, but it's the same exact thing the prosecutor themselves did and felt good about doing.

My general experience with evil, mentioned in the post about lies, is that far more people do evil things by accident because they are dim, than out of actual spite. Bond Villains don't often exist in real life. It's usually a person of limited intellect, given power they aren't equipped to handle, which they then mishandle, and produces evil results. Stalin was evil, Pol Pot was evil, but Trump and Biden? These guys are just morons. My comment was from that perspective. For people that see either one as Cobra Commander, cleverly scheming with some master plan, you're giving them waaaaaay too much credit.

Here is how Trump and Biden appear to me. I can barely tell the difference, except that one was trying to crash the country on purpose, just to shake things up, and the other is just crashing the country by accident, because he can't remember what year it is.

I see 2 complete idiots, one is kind of a bumbling idiot, and the other is kind of a narcissistic bumbling idiot who learned public speaking from watching "The Ultimate Warrior" give speeches before fake wrestling matches.

"hey, that bee near the top of the swarm is the bad one" Maybe it is. At the point where you're getting stung by a swarm of bees, you don't differentiate as much as you might normally.

You're probably right, and I don't know what I'm talking about. That's my point here. For that matter, I'm not sure anyone knows what they are talking about. It would seem to me that the entire government would look substantially different if that were the case.

I do appreciate that Biden doesn't bother me every day of the week by constantly trying to make himself the center of attention. I've had a lot more time to work these last few years, since I don't have to process stuff like "The president just winked at David Dukes", or "Trump saw a sci fi movie and now wants to defund PBS and create a SPACE ARMY stationed on the moon"

 

[CelticRambler]

If you sit down at a county fair, and watch a guy play an old beat up acoustic guitar, and he's really nailing it, doing some impressive things, we would rate that performance 9/10. If you saw Pavoratti singing with the London Philharmonic, you'd rate it a 9/10. There is an immense different in the amount of talent and effort on display. One is the aggregateed effort of over 100 people, many of which trained since childhood to reach the highest rank worldwide in their craft. The other is a single person who bought a guitar and practiced hard for 10 years. If you asked people that saw both performances, they could absolutely tell you that the philharmonic performance was an order of magnitude greater, but if you simply went by the "out of ten" scorecard, they appear equal.

There, you've hit on a good example of how things have changed. For the worse, in my opinion. I'd argue that most of your country-fair audience would not give the guitar guy a 9 out of 10, even though they can walk right up to him, see the colour of his eyes, hear his true voice and the full tonal range of his guitar. But give them a ticket to any Big Name orchestra of your choice playing a "Proms in the Park" event, or a five-thousand-seat André Rieu concert, and they'll give that 10 out of 10, no questions asked. Even though they're sitting the length of a village square away from the nearest musician, and even though they're actually listening to a range of highly filtered frequencies coming out of a set of giant loudspeakers.

What's the difference? One is offering his audience pure, unadulterated music; the other is "an experience" packaged up and sold as such by a clever marketing team. I suppose this takes us back to @AcousticAl 's point about production companies being responsible for downgrading what's offered to the public. For your Pavarotti analogy, is the 927 score really due to the aggregate skills of the 100 musicians, or is 827 of it due to the staff in the marketing and event management departments? Again, you don't have to wait long to see most YouTubers switch from unadulterated vlogging to chasing likes, explicit product placement and "please share this video because it really helps with the algorithm". Rarely do they improve their production quality in the meantime.

 

[sfoster]

I don't see a problem with that rating at all.

Someone could create a fluffy buttery biscuit and it's 10/10 the best biscuit i've ever had.
And someone else could cook a medium rare ribeye that is juicy and best seasoned i've ever had 10/10

Does that mean that the best biscuit is as good as the best steak?
Nope it just means it was a damn good biscuit.

 

[mlesemann]

Now I'm wanting steak & biscuits for dinner instead of the planned spaghetti & meatballs @sfoster

But seriously, I DO rate/grade things within categories rather than across them. I rate light rom coms against others of that genre, not against award-winning dramas or ground-breaking documentaries.

 

[James Rogers]

Here is how Trump and Biden appear to me. I can barely tell the difference, except that one was trying to crash the country on purpose, just to shake things up, and the other is just crashing the country by accident, because he can't remember what year it is.

I'm sorry Nate, but I feel compelled to write this. When I first read the above quote, I was sure you were saying Biden is crashing the country on purpose, because he is. Anyone who can read 3 different newspapers, watch a few news channels, then look around can see that is exactly what is happening. 1984 isn't just a novel any longer.

I have a lot of issues with Trump but the man did leave the country far better off than when he took office. unemployment? Down for everyone, including all minorities. Secure border? yep. Stock market soaring like a rocket? Yes indeed. Nato allies taking advantage of us? Not so much. They even started paying what they owe. Crime? Down, except in most big cities. Taliban? under control. N. Korea? very apprehensive... I know these points are all the talking points you would expect a MAGA person to have memorized. I'm not affiliated with any political group. As I said in another thread, I take one issue at a time, research it (and keep researching it) then form an opinion. In my opinion, which seems to match at least half of the country, Donald Trump is the greatest modern day president this country has ever had. I've yet to hear a liberal say one nice thing about Trump, as though what he did for this country means nothing to them. Look what he did for the country. The interesting thing to look at is that I've also never met liberal who has had anything positive to say about Biden either. They won't say they support him but they also won't say he's a screw up... And they certainly don't want to do the math to realize that he could not have possibly won the presidency. He had no following. Nobody gave a damn about him. Less than 50 people ever showed up at his rallies. Trump was winning by a landslide until the wee hours of the morning when the vote dump came and suddenly, Biden had more votes than any president in history. Right.

I'll probably get a smack down for voicing my opinion. Oh well, let the judgement and condemnation begin, but remember, when you go to the grocery store and are faced with sky rocketing prices and empty shelves, Biden did that. The baby formula shelves are empty. Now THAT is a catastrophe.

 

[sfoster]

I'm not affiliated with any political group. Donald Trump is the greatest modern day president this country has ever had.

The juxtaposition of these two sentences made me laugh.
That's about all I have to say

I'm very apolitical and I don't like discussing politics or watching the news - just pisses me off to see a SCIENTIST of all ppl lying during such scary times.
If I decidated my life to understanding and studying politics and I became the most educated and impartial and well informed person in the country, I would then proceed to change zero peoples minds about anything. Cause everyone just wants to have their own opinion.

 

[Nate North]

I'm sorry Nate, but I feel compelled to write this. When I first read the above quote, I was sure you were saying Biden is crashing the country on purpose, because he is. Anyone who can read 3 different newspapers, watch a few news channels, then look around can see that is exactly what is happening. 1984 isn't just a novel any longer.

I have a lot of issues with Trump but the man did leave the country far better off than when he took office. unemployment? Down for everyone, including all minorities. Secure border? yep. Stock market soaring like a rocket? Yes indeed. Nato allies taking advantage of us? Not so much. They even started paying what they owe. Crime? Down, except in most big cities. Taliban? under control. N. Korea? very apprehensive... I know these points are all the talking points you would expect a MAGA person to have memorized. I'm not affiliated with any political group. As I said in another thread, I take one issue at a time, research it (and keep researching it) then form an opinion. In my opinion, which seems to match at least half of the country, Donald Trump is the greatest modern day president this country has ever had. I've yet to hear a liberal say one nice thing about Trump, as though what he did for this country means nothing to them. Look what he did for the country. The interesting thing to look at is that I've also never met liberal who has had anything positive to say about Biden either. They won't say they support him but they also won't say he's a screw up... And they certainly don't want to do the math to realize that he could not have possibly won the presidency. He had no following. Nobody gave a damn about him. Less than 50 people ever showed up at his rallies. Trump was winning by a landslide until the wee hours of the morning when the vote dump came and suddenly, Biden had more votes than any president in history. Right.

I'll probably get a smack down for voicing my opinion. Oh well, let the judgement and condemnation begin, but remember, when you go to the grocery store and are faced with sky rocketing prices and empty shelves, Biden did that. The baby formula shelves are empty. Now THAT is a catastrophe.

No need to apologize, we all have our own perspectives and viewpoints. We all hear different stories from different outlets. I don't agree with some of what you said, but the type of freedom I'm after means that when it comes to opinion or interpretation, everyone should be free to think whatever they like. When the boundary into action is crossed, that's where law comes into effect. I know it's becoming popular to police others thoughts and speech, but I don't do that. I'll complain, I'll disagree, I'll rant, but I'll never gang up with a bunch of my friends and try to tear your corporation down because I didn't like some comment you made. I don't consider my feelings to be more important than yours, so I wouldn't do that.

I will say that I think in politics, especially with presidents, every time it rains we blame or praise whoever is winning musical chairs that year. If you study cognitive bias science, it's a known and tested thing that people get blamed way too often for things happening on "their watch". You live in a house for 10 years, and then move out and rent it to me. 3 days later the refrigerator breaks down. Immediately you would think "Nate broke the refrigerator" but the reality could simply be that that refrigerator was always going to break down after 10 years and a month, no matter what anyone did. Economics on a national scale are usually on a 18 month to decade plus lag, meaning it's often 10 years between an action being taken, and that action's effects being seen in the price of milk. Some analysts say that no president in the history of our country has ever been responsible for the economy on their watch, because of that delay time. So following that math, much of the economic changes we saw at the end of Trumps term were actually the echoes of the end of Obama's first term.

Also, the economy is incredibly complex, with hundreds of major players, and events like bitcoin that no one in the government had any jurisdiction over, so any time bad or good that you say that one guy fixed, or tanked, the economy, it's never really true, at least in peacetime. It's like a baseball fan from NY saying the Jets are why nobody watches baseball anymore. They probably had something to do with it, but you'd be drastically overestimating the Jets if you think the entire world of baseball revolves around this one team. Apple probably has as much power to affect the economy as any president. I would say Amazon.com is probably one of the most powerful financial entities in America. Nobody points the finger at Bezos when gas prices go up. The fed can set tax rates, but many of our biggest players don't even bother paying taxes, so the government isn't necessarily as powerful as it seems in that sphere.

Also, subtopic, but you might find it interesting to research the history of media, politics, and crime reporting (one topic) Essentially, right wing news sources have reported that crime is on the rise every single year forever. Twist, we're awesome and we just solved it. Better re elect us, because crime is on the rise again, and we're the only ones who can stop it. Here is the actual graph of crime in the US over the last 30 years. Think back, every fucking year they told you 200 times that crime was spiraling out of control, and they had bravely stopped it. The truth is far less dramatic and electable. It's very gradually died down, and is on average about half of what it was 30 years ago. That's 30 years of immigration, 16 years of democratic presidents, and it's down by 50%. Not exactly what you hear on Fox news. "Obama is giving gang members a free car if they move here illegally, and that's why there's 7x as many murders this year"

This report is from the world bank.

U.S. Crime Rate & Statistics 1960-2024

Intentional homicides are estimates of unlawful homicides purposely inflicted as a result of domestic disputes, interpersonal violence, violent conflicts over land resources, intergang violence over turf or control, and predatory violence and killing by armed groups. Intentional homicide does...

www.macrotrends.net

This last surge in this year alone is likely due to the bail debate. They had a good idea, and then completely fucked up the execution so badly that it kind of wrecked everything. That does fall in line with my earlier theory. I wanted them to quit selling "a better tier" of justice to the rich, and they said "ok, we'll just let all the criminals run free" Would it be so hard to just slap an ankle bracelet on everyone until they were tried and convicted? You didn't have to just let all the criminals run free. This one is on Biden.

I think the reason violent crime is spiking this year is the fault of both parties, or more aptly put, the facebook engagement algorithm that focus echoes each sides most polarizing posts. People are really learning to hate each other in a way I've never seen before. People from both parties should become aware that wherever America's future does lie, it won't be in dividing people and fostering hatred for a quick buck of advertising revenue.

 

[Nate North]

I don't see a problem with that rating at all.

Someone could create a fluffy buttery biscuit and it's 10/10 the best biscuit i've ever had.
And someone else could cook a medium rare ribeye that is juicy and best seasoned i've ever had 10/10

Does that mean that the best biscuit is as good as the best steak?
Nope it just means it was a damn good biscuit.

The problem isn't you though. I think you can tell the difference between a steak and a biscuit. The issue is that we put the entire system on autopilot, and the autopilot can't tell the difference between a 9 and a 9. That's why a college girl that jumped over a road cone got paid as much as the London Philharmonic last year. That is unfair to those people, since the robot started showing the road cone video 900x as often as the orchestra video. Now 100 people with concert hall overhead and student loans are splitting the same size check as "that drunk girl we filmed outside the bar"

Have you ever been in an orchestra? It's a lot of work.

 

[Nate North]

Now I'm wanting steak & biscuits for dinner instead of the planned spaghetti & meatballs @sfoster

But seriously, I DO rate/grade things within categories rather than across them. I rate light rom coms against others of that genre, not against award-winning dramas or ground-breaking documentaries.

And so you should, that's intelligent, and makes sense. My only issue is that the robots don't really make those distinctions in the same way (talking about youtube mostly) and I think it hurts the people that try the hardest, and gives a strong advantage to what are essentially spammers. In example, if you looked in my email, it's like 95% spam or junk by volume. When I throw away a spam email, the robot that made it looses .00001 seconds of time. When I toss a personal email, I'm throwing away a half hour of that persons time.

Even if I only opened one in 10 junk emails, they would quickly become "The highest rated, most trafficked" type of mail in my box. Time to send a huge check to linkedin, and defund that kid who wrote an orchestral score for me and sent it. Losses don't affect low effort spammers, but each loss hits a real creator hard, like I know Sean was really disappointed by the view count on his film, which is totally understandable.

 

[mlesemann]

They probably had something to do with it, but you'd be drastically overestimating the Jets if you think the entire world of baseball revolves around this one team.

The Mets are baseball and the Jets are football.
Just saying....

 

[Nate North]

The Mets are baseball and the Jets are football.
Just saying....

I actually know less than nothing about sports, lol.

 

[mlesemann]

I actually know less than nothing about sports, lol.

I never would have guessed

 

[Scoopicman]

I actually know less than nothing about sports, lol.

That's because you are a genius at creative things. I do know the feeling. When I was in grade school, we were playing baseball in P.E. class. I got up to bat, hit the ball, then ran to 3rd base. I didn't know the difference between 1st and 3rd, so I just ran. There was no one to stop me, as everyone was literally lying on their backs, laughing.

I did play football and wrestling in high school, after a coach pushed me to join. Changed my life for a while. These last few years, I've gone back to my nerd self. I have no idea what's going on in the world of sports.

 

[Nate North]

That's because you are a genius at creative things. I do know the feeling. When I was in grade school, we were playing baseball in P.E. class. I got up to bat, hit the ball, then ran to 3rd base. I didn't know the difference between 1st and 3rd, so I just ran. There was no one to stop me, as everyone was literally lying on their backs, laughing.

I did play football and wrestling in high school, after a coach pushed me to join. Changed my life for a while. These last few years, I've gone back to my nerd self. I have no idea what's going on in the world of sports.

Well, thanks.

I only actively participated in two sports, 3 if you count Tiger Woods on pc and consoles.

Kendo training with an actual Japanese guy is, lol, quite painful. "Remember to guard Nate", Whack, nailed in the back of the kneecap by a wooden sword. "Hey, you aren't keeping your back foot at a 18 degree angle" Whack. Then you block the next leg shot and they smack you upside the head with the flat part of the sword.

Superbike racing was fun. I quit after about 10 years because I knew I'd eventually get killed if I pushed my luck forever. It's really easy to loose control of an Aprilia Mille R. Like 1 split second of distraction could be it.

 

[Nate North]

There, you've hit on a good example of how things have changed. For the worse, in my opinion. I'd argue that most of your country-fair audience would not give the guitar guy a 9 out of 10, even though they can walk right up to him, see the colour of his eyes, hear his true voice and the full tonal range of his guitar. But give them a ticket to any Big Name orchestra of your choice playing a "Proms in the Park" event, or a five-thousand-seat André Rieu concert, and they'll give that 10 out of 10, no questions asked. Even though they're sitting the length of a village square away from the nearest musician, and even though they're actually listening to a range of highly filtered frequencies coming out of a set of giant loudspeakers.

What's the difference? One is offering his audience pure, unadulterated music; the other is "an experience" packaged up and sold as such by a clever marketing team. I suppose this takes us back to @AcousticAl 's point about production companies being responsible for downgrading what's offered to the public. For your Pavarotti analogy, is the 927 score really due to the aggregate skills of the 100 musicians, or is 827 of it due to the staff in the marketing and event management departments? Again, you don't have to wait long to see most YouTubers switch from unadulterated vlogging to chasing likes, explicit product placement and "please share this video because it really helps with the algorithm". Rarely do they improve their production quality in the meantime.

Sorry I haven't responded to this one yet, you added a few extra dimensions to the story problem, and I'm having to think about my answer.

 

[CelticRambler]

Sorry I haven't responded to this one yet ...

No problem. I have three hours of my current contract left, then freeeeeeeedom! and three days on the road.

Including one evening of dancing to purely acoustic music.

 

[sfoster]

No problem. I have three hours of my current contract left, then freeeeeeeedom! and three days on the road.

Including one evening of dancing to purely acoustic music.

sounds great! enjoy!

Are we all wasting our time?

By "we" I mean those of us trying to do things "right" - the quest for perfection, being "the best" we can be in our chosen field, aiming high, not settling, etc, etc. In the technical pages of this forum, many thousands of words have been written on the importance of good lighting, clean sound, well-crafted narratives ... and yet the Great All-Consuming Public doesn't really seem to give a damn about any of it.

I may as well take a moment to answer the OP.

Earlier this week, monday I think, I took a moment to ask this question and look deep within myself and I found nothing but an empty void.
that's a first for me, there was nothing there.

not even a small part of me that believes i'll ever be successful or ever amount to anything.

I've considered my life to be over and done with for a long time, like I am some sort of ghost, just a residual image of myself haunting the living.
it seems any fantasies that I would one day be resurrected are thoroughly extinguished

Yes I am wasting my time.

it's not like im going to stop what I'm doing though.
there is nothing else for me but to keep writing. i don't have a life.

 

[Nate North]

sounds great! enjoy!



I may as well take a moment to answer the OP.

Earlier this week, monday I think, I took a moment to ask this question and look deep within myself and I found nothing but an empty void.
that's a first for me, there was nothing there.

not even a small part of me that believes i'll ever be successful or ever amount to anything.

I've considered my life to be over and done with for a long time, like I am some sort of ghost, just a residual image of myself haunting the living.
it seems any fantasies that I would one day be resurrected are thoroughly extinguished

Yes I am wasting my time.

it's not like im going to stop what I'm doing though.
there is nothing else for me but to keep writing. i don't have a life.

I don't think the issue is you being successful I think that the issue is how high the threshold of success has gotten for creatives. We're in the very early, chaotic and unstable days of a shift in the workforce from mainly manual labor jobs, to creative jobs. It's not the whole population, but over the last few decades, we've seen the number of creative competitors in the market increase exponentially. I think that people who wait for the dust to settle will be years behind people like you that keep building core skills even during a transitional creative market.