DSLR vs. Camcorder

M

mrscrouge

Hello Indietalk, i'll start off by saying I am a total noob at anything equipment related. As of late I've read a couple of books on script writting, and I've decided to slowly start constructing a beginners set up to bring my own scripts to life (short films). I've done some research around the forum and seen that the Canon T2i, as well as the Canon Vixia HF-S20 seem to have good feedback from the members. I noticed however that the T2i is oriented for stills, even though it may have great video functions.
So if you could catch me up on that. I'm basically looking for a sub 1000$ Cam to work with.
I also have an additional 600$ (for now), that I will be setting aside for a tripod, first microphone, and basic lighting; when I decide on the camera. I will be making a different thread for that.

Thanks in advance
 
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El Director said:
I saw a little jello at the end of the clip, but the buildings were skew, which even film has a bit of skew due to the shutter wiping across the frame, just not that much. Go frame by frame through some scenes from Bourne and you'll see it.

You're from WA? Small world =D

I'll be sure to post some clips when I start the online.
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I'm from Seattle. Went to school in E-Burg.

In fact, there's lots of Seattleites on here. I think there's a conspiracy of some sort, I just haven't figured out what it is, yet.

With all due respect, I think you're not quite clear on what jello is. The more scientific word is rolling shutter effect. When the buildings bend to the side, that's jello.
 
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Very cool

To me, jello is where it wobbles like jello, which you get with a back and forth motion like at the end of the clip. It goes one way, then another. The bending is just skew. It bends one way and goes back to normal. Both are an artifact of rolling shutter.
 
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Agreed. I guess it makes more sense to use the more accurate description -- "an artifact of rolling shutter".

Discussions of semantics are boring; I'm glad we cleared that one up. Anyway, which part of Spokane Valley are you in?
 
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Works for me.

I live off of Argonne near the river. From a film standpoint, the area is great. We get the four seasons, and minus North By Northwest (a local film company), there's nothing, so it's very easy to get locations and such.

What made you move?
 
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Just keep in mind that, besides a shotgun mic, cardioid mic, boom, etc. you will have to purchase a separate audio recorder if you go DSLR. The audio implementation of DSLRs is very noticeably substandard.
 
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Nikon just came out with the D3100 which does 1080p 24fps with auto focus while recording (or so claimed). It is expected in the next month or so that the replacement for the D90 and D700 will be out and they will at the very least match what the D3100 does in terms of video.
 
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Graeme said:
Nikon just came out with the D3100 which does 1080p 24fps with auto focus while recording (or so claimed). It is expected in the next month or so that the replacement for the D90 and D700 will be out and they will at the very least match what the D3100 does in terms of video.
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checked the specs. as far as dslr's go, the 5d or 7d is still the one for me. but for nikon users, its getting better as u displayed with ur info.

the interesting thing i saw was the image assist mode or something like that where it seems to give you instructions on what to do depending on what u want ur photo to look. for eg, i saw a screen cap of the camera telling the person to lower f stop to achieve a blurry bg. it will be very attractive for noobs.
i think most dslr's r going to start incorporating it after this.
sorry if other nikons already have this, im not a nikon user. this is the first time ive heard abt this function.
 
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El Director said:
Works for me.

I live off of Argonne near the river. From a film standpoint, the area is great. We get the four seasons, and minus North By Northwest (a local film company), there's nothing, so it's very easy to get locations and such.

What made you move?
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Oh, man, that's a really long answer to that question. I guess the short answer is that my life has been very nomadic. My current location -- I came here for a job. I hated the job, but this ain't a bad little city, so though I'll definitely be moving back West, I'm not really in a hurry. I had a lot of fun at CWU. Cool area.
 
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Oren said:
how about putting un noticeable mic at actors to record there dialog ...
will that work ?
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even if u use lavs, u have to record the sound somewhere so u have to buy an external recorder.
without getting into details, basically with DSLR's the mic and the recording system both r not up to par.

i know from the other thread that ur thinking abt getting a dslr so u have to take the cost of an audio setup into account.
 
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Ernest Worthing said:
even if u use lavs, u have to record the sound somewhere so u have to buy an external recorder.
without getting into details, basically with DSLR's the mic and the recording system both r not up to par.

i know from the other thread that ur thinking abt getting a dslr so u have to take the cost of an audio setup into account.
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I concur. The Zoom H4n is the least expensive recorder that will produce workable results. The Rode NTG-2 is about as cheap as you can go for a mic. Do not plug anything directly into the camera.
 
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My problem with the DLSRs currently is the random overheating issues and the 12 minute clip length. This is a digital age and honestly I just let the damn cameras run most of the time. It doesn't cost me anything. Sometimes an actors rehearsal is better than the planned shot... Now I get all these lovely choices I didn't have before. There is also fact that these cameras need lots of rigging to do the stuff the $1999 entry level pro cam does out of the box. The form factor of the DSLR requires you to purchase a steadicam or shoulder rig where you could just shoulder or hold a normal HD cam from the rail. After you do all the math you find that both of these cams cost nearly the same so really you are trading the two limitations I've mentioned above for nothing. The DSLRs look pretty bad with anything NOT on a tripod or dolly either. These types of shots used repeatedly make the audience feel like they're looking at paintings. If you want to put everyone to sleep go ahead and do this however; once you get that camera off the tripod you will see quickly how the DSLR can't hold up on the move. If you use ANY action at all in your shots DSLRs are _really_ sub-par.

The newer AVCHD cams with SD card slots are just nutty. You can record for 3 hours straight on one 32 GB SD card with no limitations other than how many of the tiny cards and batteries you want to carry around. These cams aren't much larger than a rigged DSLR either. I'd just say save your loot and get an entry level prosumer cam; you at least get the advantage of being able to sell the gear when you are ready to upgrade as it will go for nearly what you paid. You also will be learning pro interfaces so when you hop to the next level you are going to be fully able to use the type of equipment you rent not buy. DSLR camera work teaches you how to use DSLR cameras not how to use production cameras.

The image quality of the DSLR is incredible, but it is useless in all other factors and to tell you the truth it's the stuff that matters much more than the equipment quality. The minute you are having trouble with action shots and you need one you are going to hate the hardware. A guy with an HD cam can throw that cam into nearly any pose and with some practice shoot on the move and walk with people and have no problems. DSLR cam out of the box needs $300+ in gear to shoot the HD CAM just needs a battery and an SD card.

As soon as they fix these thermal problems and 12 min clip lengths I can be on board even with the form factor limits. Random overheating while I'm paying actors and we're standing around in a hot warehouse shooting sometime? Screw that!
 
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Mindmaster said:
My problem with the DLSRs currently is the random overheating issues and the 12 minute clip length. This is a digital age and honestly I just let the damn cameras run most of the time. It doesn't cost me anything. Sometimes an actors rehearsal is better than the planned shot... Now I get all these lovely choices I didn't have before. There is also fact that these cameras need lots of rigging to do the stuff the $1999 entry level pro cam does out of the box. The form factor of the DSLR requires you to purchase a steadicam or shoulder rig where you could just shoulder or hold a normal HD cam from the rail. After you do all the math you find that both of these cams cost nearly the same so really you are trading the two limitations I've mentioned above for nothing. The DSLRs look pretty bad with anything NOT on a tripod or dolly either. These types of shots used repeatedly make the audience feel like they're looking at paintings. If you want to put everyone to sleep go ahead and do this however; once you get that camera off the tripod you will see quickly how the DSLR can't hold up on the move. If you use ANY action at all in your shots DSLRs are _really_ sub-par.
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I disagree. I have a friend who has a Canon 7d he's used several times to shoot short films. They come out looking great. A steady cam or tripod helps most shots no matter what the camera, IMO. I just don't like most hand-held shots, though.

And if you have a shoulder rig for a DSLR, what's the difference with holding a large camcorder using your shoulder mount? Seems like they'd pretty much be the same thing.
 
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Mindmaster said:
My problem with the DLSRs currently is the random overheating issues and the 12 minute clip length. This is a digital age and honestly I just let the damn cameras run most of the time. It doesn't cost me anything. Sometimes an actors rehearsal is better than the planned shot... Now I get all these lovely choices I didn't have before. There is also fact that these cameras need lots of rigging to do the stuff the $1999 entry level pro cam does out of the box. The form factor of the DSLR requires you to purchase a steadicam or shoulder rig where you could just shoulder or hold a normal HD cam from the rail. After you do all the math you find that both of these cams cost nearly the same so really you are trading the two limitations I've mentioned above for nothing. The DSLRs look pretty bad with anything NOT on a tripod or dolly either. These types of shots used repeatedly make the audience feel like they're looking at paintings. If you want to put everyone to sleep go ahead and do this however; once you get that camera off the tripod you will see quickly how the DSLR can't hold up on the move. If you use ANY action at all in your shots DSLRs are _really_ sub-par.

The newer AVCHD cams with SD card slots are just nutty. You can record for 3 hours straight on one 32 GB SD card with no limitations other than how many of the tiny cards and batteries you want to carry around. These cams aren't much larger than a rigged DSLR either. I'd just say save your loot and get an entry level prosumer cam; you at least get the advantage of being able to sell the gear when you are ready to upgrade as it will go for nearly what you paid. You also will be learning pro interfaces so when you hop to the next level you are going to be fully able to use the type of equipment you rent not buy. DSLR camera work teaches you how to use DSLR cameras not how to use production cameras.

The image quality of the DSLR is incredible, but it is useless in all other factors and to tell you the truth it's the stuff that matters much more than the equipment quality. The minute you are having trouble with action shots and you need one you are going to hate the hardware. A guy with an HD cam can throw that cam into nearly any pose and with some practice shoot on the move and walk with people and have no problems. DSLR cam out of the box needs $300+ in gear to shoot the HD CAM just needs a battery and an SD card.

As soon as they fix these thermal problems and 12 min clip lengths I can be on board even with the form factor limits. Random overheating while I'm paying actors and we're standing around in a hot warehouse shooting sometime? Screw that!
Click to expand...

There is definitely a trade-off. The overheating and the 12-minute limit might be an issue for you, so I can understand why you personally wouldn't want DSLR. However, your assertion that the images are practically the same is kind of ludicrous. I don't think you've seen much DSLR footage for you to say that. For starters it's TRUE 24p. For me, that's important. Then, you've got the interchangeable lenses, shallow depth of field, Full-HD, shooting in low light -- these are the reasons people are choosing them. It doesn't have to be for everybody, and I'm not arguing that they are superior. Also, you're sort of exxagerating about the jello effect.

DSLR vs. HDV -- they each offer plusses and minuses, and the only correct answer to this debate is what you prefer.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
There is definitely a trade-off. The overheating and the 12-minute limit might be an issue for you, so I can understand why you personally wouldn't want DSLR. However, your assertion that the images are practically the same is kind of ludicrous. I don't think you've seen much DSLR footage for you to say that. For starters it's TRUE 24p. For me, that's important. Then, you've got the interchangeable lenses, shallow depth of field, Full-HD, shooting in low light -- these are the reasons people are choosing them. It doesn't have to be for everybody, and I'm not arguing that they are superior. Also, you're sort of exxagerating about the jello effect.
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Totally agree, having interchangeable lenses gives you enormous flexibility, and even at the low-end the 550D is absolutely incredible in low-light (although pulling focus is unsurprisingly very difficult). For anyone not shooting live events or documentaries - the vast majority of indie film makers - I don't see the 12 minute limit as a problem at all. Thousands of movies shot on film have had similar limitations, and pressing record again is quicker than loading a new magazine.

Cracker Funk said:
DSLR vs. HDV -- they each offer plusses and minuses, and the only correct answer to this debate is what you prefer.
Click to expand...

Just like Macs v PCs… :D
 
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I agree with TheCracker. Also, I'm not really noticing any overheating issues with my T2i, and I am sorry, if you do the math properly, even with all of the "rigging", the ROI you get from a DSLR is unquestionably superior then what you would get with your standard pro camcorder.
 
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I've been watching test videos that people have uploaded to youtube for the Canon T2i and the image quality is amazing. We sell these at Walmart and I'm seriously thinking about saving up money to get this camera. Sure it may not be up to par with really expensive HD cameras but thats ok. I just like makin movies for fun and entertainment. Besides, its a helluva lot better than the Sony DCR-TRV280 Digital 8 cam that I have now (the Walmart Camera).
 
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Just shot with the Canon 5D mark II last night on a piece. It looked amazing, but the "jello" effect of the rolling shutter can be very problematic. You either have to change the way you shoot or you have to put some time in post production to fix it.
 
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