Doing a 10 min shortfilm: discussion

[SaberRider]

Hey guys!

I joined this site a month ago or so, and i have been following the boards every day. I have red many, many good threads and learned a lot from the members. I also made a premiere account to see what in the premiere section. Awesome stuff there too, but a bit of a dead area, and that's why I'm posting this here.

I am 3d Senior Artist at EA Games Romania, and although i do art for a living i feel it's something else that i love, and would love to do for a living. I always liked the way a game could tell a story, i always loved the ingame cinematics done by studios like Blur, Digic Picture or Blizzard Entertainment.

I felt like i could tell something interesting, but only need to start doing it to prove it, so that's how i decided to get into film making.




I searched the Internet and gathered so much information in such a short time that i can't even sort it out and remember it. Since that was the case i made some huge list with useful links and i read them and reread them with much ease now.

Now the 1st part of this thread i want to dedicate it only to gear. How much, what type?
I have done some research, but to a new guy all this types of gear are hallucinating. So i could really use your help to make the right decisions.

FILM EQUIPMENT:


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VIDEO:
Some time later we could talk the screenplay, but for this part of the discussion i can only tell you that I'm planning on shooting: landscapes (mountains, forests, etc), fight sequence, indoors with low light, and some night scenes. With these in mind I searched and listed these equipment components and products:


Camera:............................Canon T2i/550D
Price: US $749.95 + 50$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EOS-Rebel...586171?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item2c5706373b
This is a very popular camera around indie film makers and i've seen some outstanding results made with it. This is a definite.

Lens:.................................. EF 50mm f1.4 USM
Price: US $344.00 + 6$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EF-50mm-F...70672045?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item43a166b6ad
This looks like the standard must have.

Kit:......................................Canon Starter Kit for EOS Digital Rebel T2i SLR Camera, with Gadget Bag, Battery & Mini-HDMI Cable
Need bag and the other stuff there.

Monitor:.............................Marshall V-LCD50-HDMI/ Asus MS246H 23.6" HDMI Monitor
Damn, these Marshals are soo expensive. I just picked the smaller one. Even though i like the Marshal products i think I'll have to go with a normal monitor.

Matte box:....................................Universal MATTE BOX French Flag
This one seemed good.



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SOUND:
This is such an important step, and i have to do it right. But to be honest i am also scared about what to get, because i have no experience with sound.

Shotgun Kit:.......................Location Sound Package 3 Rode NTG-3
Price: US $899.00 + 40$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Location-Sound-...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e33695f9#shId
So you guys suggested to go all the way with the mic, so OK. But the NTG-3 is really expensive and i know I'll need some more mic other than this one. Hope to get the budget.

Windscreen:.......................Windscreen Fur for RODE NTG-3
Price: US $24.94 + 7$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Shotgun-Mic-Win...875?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4838292513
Since I'll be shooting most likely with wind I'll need this.

Recorder:...........................TASCAM DR-100
Price: US $299.95 + 54$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/TASCAM-DR-100-P...950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483c1f9896
After searching and searching I've found that this one is better than the Zoom-H4N. Since it's the same price I'll go with this one

Headphones:.....................Sennheiser Pro 150
You can tell me other product here. Headphones are quite pricey.

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LIGHTS:
Most of the shots will be outside, so probably the sun will help a lot. However i want to be prepared for everything, and also do interior shots good.

Light System:......................Arri 650/3 Compact Fresnel Kit
Don't know if i should go for a complete kit or buy each light,stand,etc individually and assemble them myself.

Rifa:....................................eX 88
Guess i cold DIY this, but still, it's on the list.

Stand:.................................combo
Don't know what types i need, besides the ones from the kit.

Reflector:............................JTL 24"
Same with the Rifa Light, could DIY, but i want to have a complete list.

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GRIP:
Besides the fact that i really don't know what i need here, i see that most of the stuff is very, very expensive. Luckily i have some friends really good at making things out of wood. Maybe i can DIY some of these important products. Still i have to add products to the list.

Handheld Rig:..................................CINE SUPORT 16140
I'll try make one of these.

Shoulder Mount:........................................CINE SUPER SUPORT 16145
Found this oune very,very cheap.


Tripod:..................................E Image EI-717X
It has a goot maximum height but a bit expensive. Still it's semiprofessional

Steadycam:...........................Not Decided
Don't know.

Jib:........................................DVC 200 ProAm
Boy these are expensive. I think i will be forced to DIY. But if i will have to buy one, i think this one's good.

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OTHER:

Clapboard:.......................................CLAPPER BOARD CAVISION SSN2819
Clapboard Pen:................................Wet Erase Pen


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I don't expect a full review on what i listed, but if you can give one small advice it's very much appreciated.

Also could you tell me what this list can cost were you live? Because in Romania these products are more expensive than America for example even though it's a poorer country.

I think i can manage to buy all the gear i need, since i estimate that i will start filming in about 10 months ( constraint of the beauty of the nature in that period of the year, and also to assure a full preproduction ) so i can get some good grands.

I really could use some advice guys. If you need more info, just ask!

 

[Cracker Funk]

Okay, you've done way too much research. We actually prefer it when people come on here with a simple question, like, "What's the best camera?"

Dude, if you're gonna buy this stuff in 10 months, I think you're about 9 months ahead of yourself. Just as one example, by then, the 60D will have been out for a while, and people's reviews of it will be available. Who knows? Maybe that's your camera.

I've got a couple more thoughts to share with you on this subject, but I gotta run to work.

P.S. I've seen your artwork before, a couple months ago, when I was searching for a pic I could use in my film. You've got some nice stuff.

 

[SaberRider]

Dude, if you're gonna buy this stuff in 10 months, I think you're about 9 months ahead of yourself. Just as one example, by then, the 60D will have been out for a while, and people's reviews of it will be available. Who knows? Maybe that's your camera.

Well actually i meant something else. I have 10 months to buy all of these, but i will not buy all of these at once in 10 months. For instance the camera will be the 1st thing a get, to make some 2 min short films to understand the camera better, and the workload correctly. After the camera i probably will get the sound setup, to get my way with that too. I can't quite just jump in 10 months to shot a 10 minutes short film. Not the way i want it to be .

P.S. I've seen your artwork before, a couple months ago, when I was searching for a pic I could use in my film. You've got some nice stuff.

Nice to hear that. Actually this image is my latest one, and i have done it in 2008. So...yeah. Since than i didn't do anything personal and I'm really sorry for that. But i got to do interesting stuff at work still.

I've got a couple more thoughts to share with you on this subject, but I gotta run to work.

Can't wait. I've seen your posts all over here and you are full of good advices .

 

[wheatgrinder]

Skip the proam 7" its not HD, you can find a nice HDMI LCD TV for >$200, if you dont mind having to use AC power, if you need battery powered, then look for the marshal, or similar..

get a cam, make some 2 min movies.. when I started dreaming about making movies (year or so agao) I though a 20 min movie would be short.. man, my 2 min movies take days of work..! A 20 min short still looks like a feature to me!

 

[Papertwinproductions]

Movies, and their creation are a collaborative process. You're a great artist, perhaps your skills would flourish are a "Director of Photography". Just a thought.

Nobody loves a craft, like their own craft.

So don't blow your cash on the equipment of an entire production team. Network for guys in your area who will work for eats, people that share your enthusiasm. Network. Network. Network.

Start off with a 2 minute short, Wheats right.

 

[gpforet]

Sound:

Drop the yamaha mixer and instead, spend the money on a Rode NTG2 shotgun and an Octava hyper.

Swap out the Zoom for the Tascam DR-100.

If you plan on shooting outdoors in anything but a windless day, add a rycote softie to fit the Rode.

The microphone is the most critical component of audio, and if it's not adequate, then nothing else downline can improve it.

 

[Utopia]

Sound:

Drop the yamaha mixer and instead, spend the money on a Rode NTG2 shotgun and an Octava hyper.

Swap out the Zoom for the Tascam DR-100.

If you plan on shooting outdoors in anything but a windless day, add a rycote softie to fit the Rode.

The microphone is the most critical component of audio, and if it's not adequate, then nothing else downline can improve it.

As my friend Colin Hart suggests, the NTG3 or the NTG1 is better. The NTG2 is extremely noisy.

I tend to differ on that comment about the microphone being the most crucial. The actor/actress is the most important.

I can take a pro voice talent and record him on a plastic karaoke machine microphone and he'd still sound good.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Well actually i meant something else. I have 10 months to buy all of these, but i will not buy all of these at once in 10 months. For instance the camera will be the 1st thing a get, to make some 2 min short films to understand the camera better, and the workload correctly. After the camera i probably will get the sound setup, to get my way with that too. I can't quite just jump in 10 months to shot a 10 minutes short film. Not the way i want it to be .

Oh, well, I'm afraid you took the words out of my mouth, cuz the main thing I was gonna recommend is that you just get the camera, and start making shorts -- short shorts. You've already got a miniDV camera, no? So why not make a short with that? Something real short, like a minute.

Part of the reason why it's good to just start with a camera is financial, like you mentioned. But for me, it's also very important that you just practice one skill at a time. When you're ready (which doesn't take too long), then you move on to tackling other skills.

I didn't go to film school, just took a couple classes. In Intermediate videography/filmmaking, our first assignment was to make a one-minute scene of continuous action (meaning, everything takes place in one location, in real time). No (or very little) dialogue was allowed, and all shots had to be stationary, on a tripod. Personally, I like this assignment, and think it's a great way to really focus on just a few very important basic skills -- mainly, camera placement, framing, blocking, etc.

Nice to hear that. Actually this image is my latest one, and i have done it in 2008. So...yeah. Since than i didn't do anything personal and I'm really sorry for that. But i got to do interesting stuff at work still.

I know the feeling. Sometimes life keeps us from doing the things we want. I went years without doing anything artistic, and it's incredible how much of a difference it is to be expressing one's self again.

Can't wait. I've seen your posts all over here and you are full of good advices .

Hehe. Thanks, but I don't always give good advice. I've been known to eat my words, from time to time, and sometimes I just completely lose it. I try my best, though, cuz this forum's awesome to me.

I'm curious why you're going with the 7D, instead of the T2i. There are definitely some valid reasons to choose the more expensive model, but there are some good reasons to get the cheaper one. What specifically do you want out of the 7D that you can't get in the T2i (I'm guessing HD-monitoring)?

 

[Alcove Audio]

I have to agree with ROC; although I try to avoid criticizing equipment most Azden gear is junk, even from a consumer standpoint - avoid it.

The NTG-2 is very popular with the indie crowd. Compared to more expensive mics it is a little noisy; compared to what most indie types used before the got one it is very quiet.

Owning your own audio gear is a large investment, and it is usually better to rent unless you are going to shoot on a very regular basis. Even better than renting is to hire a professional to operate it for you. A qualified boom-op is worth his/her weight in gold.

Sound is usually the downfall of most indie productions, even the most well-intentioned. How much time and effort did you expend to reach your level of competence as an artist? Leave sound, and maybe other areas of your production, to others more experienced and concentrate on directing. At the least find qualified up-and-comers; it takes some of the burden off of you.

 

[gpforet]

Unfortunately, as being just the sound guy, I never have a say in selecting the talent.

Thanks for the heads-up on the NTG2.

As my friend Colin Hart suggests, the NTG3 or the NTG1 is better. The NTG2 is extremely noisy.

I tend to differ on that comment about the microphone being the most crucial. The actor/actress is the most important.

I can take a pro voice talent and record him on a plastic karaoke machine microphone and he'd still sound good.

 

[SaberRider]

I updated the 1st post keeping in mind your suggestions:

Monitor:.............................Marshall V-LCD50-HDMI/ Asus MS246H 23.6" HDMI Monitor
Damn, these Marshals are soo expensive. I just picked the smaller one. Even though i like the Marshal products i think I'll have to go with a normal monitor.

Shotgun Mic:.......................Rode NTG2
Even though you guys suggest the NTG3, there is a 400$ gap between them. This one is still cheap, and it's still good from what i understand.

Windscreen:.......................Rycote Softie
Since I'll be shooting most likely with wind I'll need this.

... spend the money on a Rode NTG2 shotgun and an Octava hyper.

What's an Octava hyper?

Swap out the Zoom for the Tascam DR-100.

The Zoom H4N is ~300$ were the Tascam DR-100 is ~450$. Does it worth the difference?

As my friend Colin Hart suggests, the NTG3 or the NTG1 is better. The NTG2 is extremely noisy.

The NTG-2 is very popular with the indie crowd. Compared to more expensive mics it is a little noisy; compared to what most indie types used before the got one it is very quiet.

I understand tge NTG-3 is better, but is it 400$ better than the NTG-2?


I checked those Marshall Monitors and they are awesome, but expensive as hell. Can i do the job fine with a HDMI monitor?

There are definitely some valid reasons to choose the more expensive model, but there are some good reasons to get the cheaper one.

Well i am all ears. All i want is quality, flexibility and stability. I've read somewhere that the T2i can even crash. Though the 7D costs double the money.

Owning your own audio gear is a large investment, and it is usually better to rent unless you are going to shoot on a very regular basis. Even better than renting is to hire a professional to operate it for you. A qualified boom-op is worth his/her weight in gold.

Sound is usually the downfall of most indie productions, even the most well-intentioned. How much time and effort did you expend to reach your level of competence as an artist? Leave sound, and maybe other areas of your production, to others more experienced and concentrate on directing. At the least find qualified up-and-comers; it takes some of the burden off of you.

I don't know how to actually approach this. I don't know a sound guy, so if he's not my friend how can i ask someone to do stuff for free. If i have to pay him then i am not comfortable renting the gear. I want to have access to everything when i need it. Depending on someone is not on my liking. People drop out when you most desire them not to.

 

[Cracker Funk]

From what I hear, the 7D is much more of a dual-purpose camera. I'm not a photographer, but when I hear photographers talk about it, there seems to be no question as to which camera they prefer.

The 7D has quite a few features that are not included with the T2i. Just a couple examples -- it has a color-correction option, in which white-balance can be adjusted incrementally, in steps, in addition to the usual auto and custom white-balance modes. It also has an in-cam balancing level. These are just a couple examples of many features that I'm not gonna try and list -- I'm sure there are plenty of sites comparing them that are easily google-able.

In my opinion, though, these are all just minor conveniences, and not at all necessary. The image produced is the same. I just shot a feature, using both cameras, and in my opinion, when it comes to my bottom-line -- image quality, they're the same camera.

Now, there is one big difference that is more than just a convenience. With the T2i, I don't have HD-monitoring capability. During record, the output is SD. For some people, that's huge, and a definite reason to go with the 7D.

Honestly, you might want to consider the 60D. It's got some cool features not included with the T2i. I've been trying to find out if it has HD-monitoring, but so far my searches have been fruitless. It comes out pretty soon, and it's not much more expensive than the T2i.

 

[SaberRider]

Well I'm glad we talked about the camera CFunk cause you made me change my mind .

I've searched the Internet all day, and by the end o if i think the T2i is by far more relevant for me at this point than the 7D. Also a lot more cheaper.

Now, i don't know what type of lenses i need the most. I would like to clarify this pretty fast because i want to order the camera. Is the Canon EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS the best lens to get?

I need more research, damn...

 

[Utopia]

Shotgun Mic:.......................Rode NTG2
Even though you guys suggest the NTG3, there is a 400$ gap between them. This one is still cheap, and it's still good from what i understand.

I understand tge NTG-3 is better, but is it 400$ better than the NTG-2?

The NTG3 has extremely useful features. The NTG2 is way different than the NTG3 - don't think it's only a price difference between them...

I strive to be professional in anything I do and I'd go for the NTG3 for the long-run...

 

[Cracker Funk]

Well I'm glad we talked about the camera CFunk cause you made me change my mind .

I've searched the Internet all day, and by the end o if i think the T2i is by far more relevant for me at this point than the 7D. Also a lot more cheaper.

Now, i don't know what type of lenses i need the most. I would like to clarify this pretty fast because i want to order the camera. Is the Canon EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS the best lens to get?

I need more research, damn...

Welcome to Team T2i!

I'm not anything even closely resembling a lens expert. However, the thing I hear repeated most often is that you should pick up a 50mm prime. Canon's got one, with f1.8, for barely over $100. Also, (something I just learned today), you can use either an EF, or an EF-S lens. There's a lot of talk about the conversion math that you have to do between EF and EF-S, but it doesn't really mean anything for us T2i users -- a 50mm EF lens looks exactly the same as a 50mm EF-S lens on a T2i or 7D.

In my experience, in the indie filmmaking world, you're not really gonna need those macro lenses very often. 18-200mm might be a little overkill. More often than not, if your shoots are anything like mine, you'll be wanting a wide lens, rarely ever needing anything more telehpoto than the 18-55mm that comes stock with the T2i (or the 50mm prime, if you go that route). I can only think of a couple occasions on my feature shoot when I wished I had a 100mm. Not once did I ever crave a 200mm, but hey, that's just me. Don't forget -- it's important to think about that f-stop. Only a prime will get you the really low f-stop that you're very likely gonna want.

Just my two cents -- I think the 18-55mm stock is a good starting point. In the not-too-distant future, you'll probably want a couple primes, at the very least, but the versatility of the stock lens is kinda convenient, and since money's an issue...

 

[Cracker Funk]

P.S. There have been plenty of threads on this forum dedicated to DSLR lenses. Just do a little searching, and browse the "camera and lenses" section, for advice far better than what I just offered.

 

[SaberRider]

Well i will make my first move this week and buy these 2 items.

Canon EOS Rebel T2i Digital SLR (Body Only) Brand New
http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EOS-Rebel...586171?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item2c5706373b

Canon EF 50mm F/1.4 USM Lens USA Warranty T1i T2i 50D
http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EF-50mm-F...70672045?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item43a166b6ad

I searched a lot on this forum but i can't understand why if i search Titles only and say Canon T2i for example can't i get all the threads that have Canon T2i in their title. I don't understand the patter this forum searches, or maybe it's just me

Anyways, while searching i found a thread of yours CFunk were this item came in discussion:
http://www.beachtek.com/dxaslr.html

Does this replace the audio recorder (Zoom H4N in my case) and records the audio with the film? Or did I understand this wrong? I don't mind syncing audio with video in post, but this tool is not a lot more expensive and looks really good.

Anyways, in a couple of days i will make my definitive first step in film making. Kinda anxious.

Edit: I almost forgot. Today i came aware of another piece of equipment i might need, and that's the viewfinder.
http://www.cameratown.com/articles/dslr_cinematography.cfm

Why is this more important than an external monitor?

Edit2: For action/running scenes how do you record audio? Do you get a mic on the actor running, or have the shotgun mic record as he passes the camera?

 

[Cracker Funk]

Whether you get an external recorder, or an XLR adapter, you still have to purchase a good mic. The XLR adapter is actually more expensive than an external recorder, so the only reason you would want and XLR adapter is if you're gonna be doing a one-man show all the time.

A good boom-op, though, is pretty much a necessity, I think most filmmakers would agree, and it's nice to be able to free that boom-op to go where they want, not connected to the camera by a pesky cable. So, since a digital recorder (like the Zoom H4n) is less expensive than the annoying XLR adapter, that's probably the way to go.

Then, and probably the bigger issue, is the fact that the T2i is horrible for recording audio. You'll get better quality with an external recorder.

 

[Mindmaster]

Though no one has specifically mentioned it be aware that the T2I doesn't render HD (it down-res'es to SD) on the live output when you are in movie mode. It makes it impossible to use an external focus monitor for this camera. You need a Zacuto Z-Finder if you are going to use this camera, and even that requires some fudging. I'd recommend you just save for the 7D if you have this much time. As far as the TASCAM DR-101, skip it.. I'm a muscian and TASCAM consumer gear is just completely worthless the amps and mics are always weak beyond the fact that it always costs more than competing gear (this has a drastic effect on your signal to noise ratio). Zoom always sells pro-grade guts in a consumer housing which is fine if you don't football the little hockey puck with mics it'll do the job better and cheaper. It'll be made out of a cheaper plastic than the tascam, but it will sound better.

As far as mics always go for the best you can afford you will always see the difference in the sound picture, but I honestly recommend you spend on the other gear first and use left over for sound. The sound gear isn't nearly as expensive as tripods, cameras, and lenses. You still need to buy sound gear just like you still need a camera sure your DP might have one, but what if that guy doesn't show up? If you have a 7D and a Zoom H4N if someone doesn't show you can still shoot. One thing you can save a buck on is a boom pole you just don't need one when you start get one of those cheaper overhead mic boom stands and it can hold your mic for you all day without complaint. You also have an alternative if the boom op doesn't show. Yes, you will see your first problem of the day is no-shows more than anything! Your gear should be no-show insurance. You need a boom pole when you are able to recruit a sound guy that has better gear than you, and he'll bring his own recorder AND pole (he'll bring the one he likes, of course). You really don't need it to start.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Though no one has specifically mentioned it be aware that the T2I doesn't render HD (it down-res'es to SD) on the live output when you are in movie mode. It makes it impossible to use an external focus monitor for this camera. You need a Zacuto Z-Finder if you are going to use this camera, and even that requires some fudging.

No, actually I've mentioned that fact a couple times. Nevertheless, I'm glad you brought it up as a reminder, as that is an important issue to consider. I'm afraid I disagree with your assessment that you need a Z-Finder. A Z-Finder (and there are many more brands available than Zacuto) is a nice thing to have, and he'll probably want to get one. But you don't need it. In fact, there was one day in which my substitute boom-op brought his 7D with him to the set, with Z-Finder already attached. It lasted about 15 minutes before he took it off, and shot the rest of the day without it. There are pluses and minuses to every type of setup.

Also, I forgot to mention, SaberRider, that you're definitely going to want a wide lens. The 50mm prime seems to be the standard recommendation, from all the camera-nerds, but you don't want just that lens. If you only get two, I'd recommend 20mm or wider.

Sorry, I made it sound like there are tons of threads about lenses, when in fact there's really only been one that I can recall. You should check this thread out (it's also got a couple worthwhile links):

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=24135