Doing a 10 min shortfilm: discussion

SaberRider

SaberRider

Hey guys!

I joined this site a month ago or so, and i have been following the boards every day. I have red many, many good threads and learned a lot from the members. I also made a premiere account to see what in the premiere section. Awesome stuff there too, but a bit of a dead area, and that's why I'm posting this here.

I am 3d Senior Artist at EA Games Romania, and although i do art for a living i feel it's something else that i love, and would love to do for a living. I always liked the way a game could tell a story, i always loved the ingame cinematics done by studios like Blur, Digic Picture or Blizzard Entertainment.

I felt like i could tell something interesting, but only need to start doing it to prove it, so that's how i decided to get into film making.




I searched the Internet and gathered so much information in such a short time that i can't even sort it out and remember it. Since that was the case i made some huge list with useful links and i read them and reread them with much ease now.

Now the 1st part of this thread i want to dedicate it only to gear. How much, what type?
I have done some research, but to a new guy all this types of gear are hallucinating. So i could really use your help to make the right decisions.

FILM EQUIPMENT:


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VIDEO:
Some time later we could talk the screenplay, but for this part of the discussion i can only tell you that I'm planning on shooting: landscapes (mountains, forests, etc), fight sequence, indoors with low light, and some night scenes. With these in mind I searched and listed these equipment components and products:


Camera:............................Canon T2i/550D
Price: US $749.95 + 50$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EOS-Rebel...586171?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item2c5706373b
This is a very popular camera around indie film makers and i've seen some outstanding results made with it. This is a definite.

Lens:.................................. EF 50mm f1.4 USM
Price: US $344.00 + 6$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EF-50mm-F...70672045?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item43a166b6ad
This looks like the standard must have.

Kit:......................................Canon Starter Kit for EOS Digital Rebel T2i SLR Camera, with Gadget Bag, Battery & Mini-HDMI Cable
Need bag and the other stuff there.

Monitor:.............................Marshall V-LCD50-HDMI/ Asus MS246H 23.6" HDMI Monitor
Damn, these Marshals are soo expensive. I just picked the smaller one. Even though i like the Marshal products i think I'll have to go with a normal monitor.

Matte box:....................................Universal MATTE BOX French Flag
This one seemed good.



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SOUND:
This is such an important step, and i have to do it right. But to be honest i am also scared about what to get, because i have no experience with sound.

Shotgun Kit:.......................Location Sound Package 3 Rode NTG-3
Price: US $899.00 + 40$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Location-Sound-...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e33695f9#shId
So you guys suggested to go all the way with the mic, so OK. But the NTG-3 is really expensive and i know I'll need some more mic other than this one. Hope to get the budget.

Windscreen:.......................Windscreen Fur for RODE NTG-3
Price: US $24.94 + 7$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Shotgun-Mic-Win...875?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4838292513
Since I'll be shooting most likely with wind I'll need this.

Recorder:...........................TASCAM DR-100
Price: US $299.95 + 54$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/TASCAM-DR-100-P...950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483c1f9896
After searching and searching I've found that this one is better than the Zoom-H4N. Since it's the same price I'll go with this one

Headphones:.....................Sennheiser Pro 150
You can tell me other product here. Headphones are quite pricey.

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LIGHTS:
Most of the shots will be outside, so probably the sun will help a lot. However i want to be prepared for everything, and also do interior shots good.

Light System:......................Arri 650/3 Compact Fresnel Kit
Don't know if i should go for a complete kit or buy each light,stand,etc individually and assemble them myself.

Rifa:....................................eX 88
Guess i cold DIY this, but still, it's on the list.

Stand:.................................combo
Don't know what types i need, besides the ones from the kit.

Reflector:............................JTL 24"
Same with the Rifa Light, could DIY, but i want to have a complete list.

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GRIP:
Besides the fact that i really don't know what i need here, i see that most of the stuff is very, very expensive. Luckily i have some friends really good at making things out of wood. Maybe i can DIY some of these important products. Still i have to add products to the list.

Handheld Rig:..................................CINE SUPORT 16140
I'll try make one of these.

Shoulder Mount:........................................CINE SUPER SUPORT 16145
Found this oune very,very cheap.


Tripod:..................................E Image EI-717X
It has a goot maximum height but a bit expensive. Still it's semiprofessional

Steadycam:...........................Not Decided
Don't know.

Jib:........................................DVC 200 ProAm
Boy these are expensive. I think i will be forced to DIY. But if i will have to buy one, i think this one's good.

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OTHER:

Clapboard:.......................................CLAPPER BOARD CAVISION SSN2819
Clapboard Pen:................................Wet Erase Pen


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I don't expect a full review on what i listed, but if you can give one small advice it's very much appreciated.

Also could you tell me what this list can cost were you live? Because in Romania these products are more expensive than America for example even though it's a poorer country.

I think i can manage to buy all the gear i need, since i estimate that i will start filming in about 10 months ( constraint of the beauty of the nature in that period of the year, and also to assure a full preproduction ) so i can get some good grands.

I really could use some advice guys. If you need more info, just ask!
 
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Whether you get an external recorder, or an XLR adapter, you still have to purchase a good mic. The XLR adapter is actually more expensive than an external recorder, so the only reason you would want and XLR adapter is if you're gonna be doing a one-man show all the time.

A good boom-op, though, is pretty much a necessity, I think most filmmakers would agree, and it's nice to be able to free that boom-op to go where they want, not connected to the camera by a pesky cable. So, since a digital recorder (like the Zoom H4n) is less expensive than the annoying XLR adapter, that's probably the way to go.

Then, and probably the bigger issue, is the fact that the T2i is horrible for recording audio. You'll get better quality with an external recorder.
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OK, i understand now. I updated the 1st page with prices and products that i will soon buy from ebay. I found this kit for the Zoom-H4N:

Recorder:...........................Zoom H4N Kit
Price: US $319.00 + 40$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Zoom-H4n-H4-n-4...374?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3360966a06
As I've seen on this forum this is the one to go.
Click to expand...

Does it worth it? There are some more offers of kits, with a case, and even another mic and pole. Should i buy those instead?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Zoom-H4n-H4-n-4...184?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563eced2a0
http://cgi.ebay.com/Zoom-H4n-Record...887?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483b1e02ef

Also in the sound department i found Rode NTG-3 Kit:
Shotgun Kit:.......................Location Sound Package 3 Rode NTG-3
Price: US $899.00 + 40$ Shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/Location-Sound-...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e33695f9#shId
So you guys suggested to go all the way with the mic, so OK. But the NTG-3 is really expensive and i know I'll need some more mics other than this one. Hope to get the budget.
Click to expand...

It looks really good.


Also, I forgot to mention, SaberRider, that you're definitely going to want a wide lens. The 50mm prime seems to be the standard recommendation, from all the camera-nerds, but you don't want just that lens. If you only get two, I'd recommend 20mm or wider.

Sorry, I made it sound like there are tons of threads about lenses, when in fact there's really only been one that I can recall. You should check this thread out (it's also got a couple worthwhile links):

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=24135
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I did look into that thread some time ago, thanks for bringing it up again. For the beginning, do i need another lens than the 50 mm? At what kind of shots I need a 20mm lens? Also do i need a zoom lens? This whole topic is really huge.

About buying from ebay. It's safe right? Also, since I will buy some gear thousands of dollars worth is there a discount i can hunt for? A special card or something?

Thanks guys for all your input so far. I feel i made so much progress since i 1st came here.

EDIT: I've read about a heating problem with the T2i/7D. Is it serios? Do i need some kind of ventilator improvisation on it to keep it cool when filming outside? Can it kill the camera if not taken care of? This aspect of the camera frightens me.
 
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SaberRider said:
For the beginning, do i need another lens than the 50 mm? At what kind of shots I need a 20mm lens?
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You'll use a wide lens all the damn time. Very necessary to have a wide lens. Any time you're shooting inside. Or, if you're outside, but in a confined space (like an alley-way). Or, if you want a wide depth of field. There are TONS of occasions in which you'll want a wide lens. That's why I went with the kit lens that comes packaged. I assure you, I wanted more than one lens, but I'm broke, so I like the 18-55mm.

SaberRider said:
EDIT: I've read about a heating problem with the T2i/7D. Is it serios? Do i need some kind of ventilator improvisation on it to keep it cool when filming outside? Can it kill the camera if not taken care of? This aspect of the camera frightens me.
Click to expand...

It's not just the T2i and 7D, but all DSLRs. If you're in a cool climate, it's no problem. If you're inside, in air-conditioning, it's not a problem. If you're outside, and it's hot, it can be annoying. I just shot a feature in the middle of the Summer, and it gets really hot where I live. When we were outside, every now and then, my camera would tell me it's getting hot. It's not a huge issue, just kind of annoying. You tell your actors to take 5, you turn the camera off and let it rest in the shade. Turn it back on after a few minutes and you're good to go. The camera won't explode. If you don't turn it off, it'll turn itself off.
 
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There are several reasons why I recommend the Tascam DR-100. I have been using one for nearly a year now for location sound work and here's what it has over the Zoom.

1. Mulitple battery system. 3+ hrs while running phantom.
2. Better pre-amps than the zoom when using external condenser mics
3. Wired remote that can be mounted to boom pole.
4. Knobs for gain control. Much, much easier to adjust during a roll than trying to press a button.
5. Real line inputs, although they are unbalanced.

As far as durability, I can only speak for the Tascam and it has been rock solid. I began using the Director's unit and when I began putting together my basic kit could not find anything better. The zoom's single battery system and button gain control turned me off. Once you've boomed a shot where you have to ride gain you'll find there is no substitute for a knob or wheel. It's the same wheel arrangement found on the Fostex.

Musical application and location sound are two very different worlds as I learned quickly when making the transition.

Maybe someone can comment on how easy the zoom is to use when riding gain levels.

Can you adjust levels separately for left and right with the zoom. With the tascam, I'm often running the boom in one channel and a wireless in the other and separate level controls are a necessity.

Mindmaster said:
Though no one has specifically mentioned it be aware that the T2I doesn't render HD (it down-res'es to SD) on the live output when you are in movie mode. It makes it impossible to use an external focus monitor for this camera. You need a Zacuto Z-Finder if you are going to use this camera, and even that requires some fudging. I'd recommend you just save for the 7D if you have this much time. As far as the TASCAM DR-101, skip it.. I'm a muscian and TASCAM consumer gear is just completely worthless the amps and mics are always weak beyond the fact that it always costs more than competing gear (this has a drastic effect on your signal to noise ratio). Zoom always sells pro-grade guts in a consumer housing which is fine if you don't football the little hockey puck with mics it'll do the job better and cheaper. It'll be made out of a cheaper plastic than the tascam, but it will sound better.

As far as mics always go for the best you can afford you will always see the difference in the sound picture, but I honestly recommend you spend on the other gear first and use left over for sound. The sound gear isn't nearly as expensive as tripods, cameras, and lenses. You still need to buy sound gear just like you still need a camera sure your DP might have one, but what if that guy doesn't show up? If you have a 7D and a Zoom H4N if someone doesn't show you can still shoot. One thing you can save a buck on is a boom pole you just don't need one when you start get one of those cheaper overhead mic boom stands and it can hold your mic for you all day without complaint. You also have an alternative if the boom op doesn't show. Yes, you will see your first problem of the day is no-shows more than anything! Your gear should be no-show insurance. You need a boom pole when you are able to recruit a sound guy that has better gear than you, and he'll bring his own recorder AND pole (he'll bring the one he likes, of course). You really don't need it to start.
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I own a H2N and the volume levels are nothing close to ideal when recording...

I bet the H4N is the same way.

The Zoom is not made for professional production sound mixing. It's made like a Sony point and shoot is to a professional film camera.
 
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I'm not so sure about that Rode NTG3 package.

The mic itself is only 533$ and a boom pole from Rode is about 149$. Mic cable (best kind) is only about 3$ a foot plus connectors run about 10 bucks a pair so I don't know if that package is actually worth 940$...

Double check how much it would be for the individual pieces than the package.
 
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SaberRider said:
Quickly dropping by:


You mean this one?
http://www.f64.ro/canon-ef-20mm-f-2-8-usm.html

So tomorrow I'm buying the camera and lenses. A 50mm and a 20mm. If a go for a 50mm i don't need the 18-55 or vicevera. Am i wrong?
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That lens will come in very handy, and paired with a 50mm would be a good start. Of course, price is an issue -- I can't figure out how much the thing costs -- what the hell is 2.343,00 lei? How is there a decimal before a comma?
 
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Oh, sorry for that, it's a romanian store. I was just verifying the model. It's 710$. Is that OK? I guess in USA it's somewhere around 500$, but here it's a lot more expensive.

Btw, i dropped the ebay store solution because with shipping and other taxes applied it will cost me a lot more than if i buy them from a local store.

I found a good, professional store and now i must decide what to buy because tomorrow I'm getting the camera.
The T2i Body, or with the 15-55 lens included (for and extra 95$).
At this moment i think this is what I will buy tomorrow:

Canon EOS 550D kit EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS
1030$

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II
156$

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM
555$

3 x Canon LP-E8
180$
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The only lens I'm not sure of is the 85 mm one. I feel like i'd better get the 20 mm (a little bit more expensive though) one and skip the 15-55 lens.
 
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I don't know what to tell you, cuz now it's just a question of money. There's no question that the prime lenses you are looking at are better than the kit lens (that's what everyone tells me anyway, and they do have a lower f-stop). But do you really wanna spend all that extra money right off the bat? I dunno, that's your call.

If I were you, I would go the cheapest route (kit lens), and just start playing with the camera, practicing my skills with it. And then, later, when my skills have progressed, then I start investing in good lenses. But that's just me. Maybe you want the good stuff from the get-go.

I will say this, though -- you can find generic batteries for WAY cheaper -- like $20 for three of them.

It's kind of a win-win situation for you, so don't stress the decision too much. Either way, you're gonna have a solid camera that can produce beautiful results. Now, it's only a question of how much you're willing to spend, initially.
 
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As I've said, I went to the store and made the 1st step into film making. I hope that from this point it will be a long and wonderful journey.

Here are some quick shots made with the stuff i bought, after i just unpacked them. I did not even power the T2i before i wanted to shoot everything i bought, just to remember the moment.









Pictures taken with a Sony DSC-H10


Entering the store gave me shivers. I was all surrounded with professional gear and equipment. Talking to the store clerk was embarrassing since I proved myself to know almost nothing, even though i thought i came prepared. But still, i asked every question it came into mind, even though it was stupid or not.

After talking to the nice clerk, i decided to review my initial buying list and what I ended up getting is this (I'm just linking to the romanian store to see the product image):



Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II
http://www.f64.ro/canon-ef-50mm-f-1-8-ii.html

Canon EOS 550D kit EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS
http://www.f64.ro/products/description/Canon_EOS_550D_kit_EF_S_18_55mm_f_3_5_5_6_IS/index.html

Lowepro Stealth Reporter D200 AW
http://www.f64.ro/lowepro-stealth-reporter-d200-aw.html

Giottos CL1102 - Kit Maintenance
http://www.f64.ro/products/description/Giottos_CL1102-Kit_de_curatare_si_intretinere/index.html

Hahnel HL-E8 - Charger replace Canon LP-E8 1120mAh
http://www.f64.ro/products/descript...eplace_tip_Canon_tip_LP_E8_1120mAh/index.html

SDHC 16GB Sandisk Extreme 30mb/sec
http://www.f64.ro/sdhc-16gb-sandisk-extreme-iii.html

Parasolar Lambency HD-03 tip Canon ES-62 (replace)
http://www.f64.ro/parasolar-hd-03-tip-canon-es-62-replace.html

Filter Kenko UV MC Digital 58mm
http://www.f64.ro/kenko-uv-mc-digital-58mm.html

Filter Kenko UV MC Digital 52mm
http://www.f64.ro/kenko-uv-mc-digital-52mm.html

Canon BG-E8 - Battery grip for Canon EOS 550D
http://www.f64.ro/products/description/Canon_BG_E8-Battery_grip_pentru_Canon_EOS_550D/index.html

Total spent: 1600$
Click to expand...

Now I am very happy, and I'm going to assemble my new toy and start playing with it.

Next in the shopping list will be the Audio Gear. Yuhuu!!!!
 
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bravo! Something to be said for just jumping in with both feet.

Your first assignment is to take a short video of an attractive random stranger in the most interesting location within a kilometer of your home. You have 24 hours.. from reading this post.

;)
 
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WOW, the camera is AWESOME :D . IT's just...plain....awesome. Money well spent.



I didn't had time to shoot anything well planned. I just made some test footage with my sisters daughter yesterday morning before i went to work and today i thought "Hell, why not try a montage?"

So here is the result (vimeo website doesn't want to final process the video, i might need a full account, because i don't prefer youtube):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwcuoNYGyqY

(don't know how to embed)



I also made some tests with the battery charger, to see how much i can do with it when shooting on location. Here are the results:

Charging time:

Original Canon Charger:..............120 min
Hahnel Charger: .....................100 min


Heating Alarm: after 60 minutes of continuous filming

...15 minutes cool down.

Next heating alarm: after 30 minutes of continuous filming.

...30 minutes cool down.

Next heating alarm: almost reached it in 30 minutes, but the battery drained out.

Conclusion: 1 x Canon Charger= 120 minutes of continuous filming with a 45 minutes break.
Click to expand...

So these are the updates. I hope to get time this weekend to shoot something. I also need to check the budget and look for audio gear. Also I need to start the screenplay. So many things to do, so little time.....
 
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I have a t2i, in fact i'm holding it in my avatar picture. I really want to see your short film now as a fellow t2i videographer. I might post something I'm working on soon as well =).
 
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gpforet said:
Can you adjust levels separately for left and right with the zoom. With the tascam, I'm often running the boom in one channel and a wireless in the other and separate level controls are a necessity.
Click to expand...

This is one of the biggest weaknesses of the H4n - you can't adjust gain independently on the 2 channels. The Tascam dials are certainly nice as well, but the independent level control is the more important feature.

The dual-battery in the Tascam is actually a hugely important feature as well - on the Zoom, if the battery dies while you are recording you lose the recording in progress! I found this out the hard way, completely losing the audio from a 30 minute interview and having to reshoot the interview because of it. And if you're using phantom power (which you will with most good mics) it's really difficult to predict the run time as it varies dramatically from mic to mic, so you really have to pay close attention to the battery levels on the Zoom.

I got the Zoom a long time ago when it was significantly cheaper than the Tascam, and it's served me well for a lot of projects but if I were buying today I'd get the Tascam without hesitation.
 
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Hy guys,

Dropping by really quick for some advices. Lots of things are going on, and i mean LOTS, but i really want to talk about SOUND with you.

I have planned my 1st shooting this weekend, the 1st weekend of a 4 weeks shooting series. I am doing a short with a running scene. My problem with sound is that i don't know what's the best way to record these action scenes? I bought a Tascam recorder as you guys suggested and it's AWESOME. I also bought NTG-2 mic because of budget reasons.

So, what else gear do i need for sound (and i mean essential stuff)

How to record sound for a scene were the main character is running? (he is running in big streets, with loads of traffic and people)

What's the best way to do sound in post? Should i consider doing sound in post?

Honestly, i don't even know the right questions, and that shows how far off i am with sound. And since i'm filming in a couple of days i am really scared about this aspect. Could really need some advices.

Thank's a lot!
 
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