Do the leads deserve royalty on any potential earnings?

R

RealJasonBourne

If you have success making a film series, or any kind of online series, etc, and you have a main actor, should he receive royalties other than his pay for the filming?

Or should director/creator keep 100% of any earnings made from the work and continue to pay the actor an agreed amount?
 
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If an actor showed up to an audition and said to me

"Dude this project is amazing, it's going places!! I'll work for the absolute sag minimum for you if I can be a small partner in this project"

I would love them for it and then you would see the generous side of my nature.
 
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Damn dude. So you want actors to come to you with sub-standard rates so you can reward them with standard rates?
 
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What sort of business background do you guys have?

If I got hired as a software developer to make a video game and then it sold a lot of copies, that company would not give me a percentage ownership. They'd say that I'd already been paid. I know bonuses are a thing.. but royalties, percentages.. never heard of that unless people are given it in advance to motivate them.

Edit: actually as a software developer you can INVENT something brand new and the company owns the patent, not you, because they paid you to work on that and invent it

I wouldn't want to be an investor in any of your projects if you're going to give all the profits away without even trying to negotiate or implement risk management.
 
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Lets try a different story.

You estimate your audience, your marketing strategy, and you've got a business plan.
You're ready for the big leagues but you need the capital to make it happen.

Guy says no.
Second guy says no.
You're persistent, third guy looks at your plan, evaluates his risk vs reward and says yes.

He will invest X dollars because he thinks a y% chance will get Z return.

Your film becomes a hit success he hoped for and now what are you going to do..
You're going to breach the contract and short your producer because you think the actors deserved more than they negotiated for?

And if you went to that producer in the first place with his profits cut in half because he has to share them with the actors, that completely changes his risk management and he never would have said yes.
 
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sfoster said:
You say why not in good faith give them money for free?
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No, I'm saying why not in good faith show that you respect somebody, the work they did for you and the contribution that allowed a film to become successful in the first place.
Even a lead actor that isn't enough of a name to bring people in the door still has a major contributing role in the success of the film.

sfoster said:
if someone is famous enough that people will watch my movie bc of them.. that person won't be working for $100 and no royalties. That would be absurd for an agent to negotiate so poorly.
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Some actors do work on films if the money isn't there because they believe in the project. Additionally, in what low budget realm are you working in where people aren't paid $100/day...?

Surely if you have a 10 day shoot at $100/day and your film sees a $250k profit, it's not much of an ask to throw a small compensatory gift as a thanks and understanding of the work days they had to take off, the other jobs they may have turned down, the long days they worked for you for a measly amount of money.
$100/day is not an appropriate fee.

sfoster said:
....Dreamer is never going to amount to anything, getting older. Keeps saving.
Finally they have enough to pay people hundreds of dollars a day, finally they have a life savings and they risk it all, betting their whole youth so that people will show up to auditions and take an interest in their project. [...]
Oh but maybe it'll pay off. Maybe.. and if it does, you think these strangers deserve the cheese you risked everything for?
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If the 'dreamer' is spending his entire life savings on making a movie that isn't financially viable in the first place, he is nothing more than that - a dreamer. That doesn't make particularly good business sense.

Personally, if I was said dreamer and I made my money back and a tidy profit, then I would be happy to concede a small gift to those that supported me and helped me out - whether monetary or getting them onto well paying gigs.
Sure, there can be some dicks who may not 'deserve' such a gift, but I tend to work with those who are doing low budget projects out of 'love' for the project or the industry, as a favour that would expect to be repayable at some point or because people are attempting to 'break in'.

The least I could do is recognise their sacrifices. I'm still getting 95% of the proceeds.


indietalk said:
If they are part of the reason it is a success 100%.
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They are a part of the reason it is a success regardless.

sfoster said:
If I got hired as a software developer to make a video game and then it sold a lot of copies, that company would not give me a percentage ownership. They'd say that I'd already been paid. I know bonuses are a thing.. but royalties, percentages.. never heard of that unless people are given it in advance to motivate them.
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Most good companies incentivise their staff by rewarding good work and sharing company rewards throughout.
Let's say a small software or game developer sells millions of copies and makes millions of dollars profit. A good manager or CEO should know that the staff who worked tirelessly to get the software or game to market deserve a reward - whether through bonus or salary hike.
Even sometimes it's a day off or a day out or a company-sponsored drinks with a free bar. Most good companies know that their staff are happiest, and staff retention is highest when they're being rewarded for their work.


sfoster said:
You're going to breach the contract and short your producer because you think the actors deserved more than they negotiated for?
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not suggesting breaking investor contracts. Nor am I suggesting that you should allocate huge swathes of money as 'gifts' or 'rewards' for a successful film.
 
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I agree with what you've said jax, nothing wrong with expressing your appreciation for someone with a gift.

But no movie is guaranteed as a financial success.. the film market is fickle so it's unfair to dismiss that risk an investor takes as a movie that isn't "financially viable in the first place"
 
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I was just razzing you a bit last night sfoster you seemed so passionate about it. :P

PS. Companies where people invent, some have stock options. If somebody were to invent something at Google I'd imagine they are paid handsomely and stock options equates to ownership per your example.

But back to film or online series... royalties (residuals). Okay, if you were Jennifer Aniston wouldn't you be pissed you weren't getting checks in the mail for how much Friends is still played on TV?

Sure that's the agent's negotiating skills but this started off with the word "deserve." I guess it's a tricky word.
 
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indietalk said:
I was just razzing you a bit last night sfoster you seemed so passionate about it. :P

PS. Companies where people invent, some have stock options. If somebody were to invent something at Google I'd imagine they are paid handsomely and stock options equates to ownership per your example.

But back to film or online series... royalties (residuals). Okay, if you were Jennifer Aniston wouldn't you be pissed you weren't getting checks in the mail for how much Friends is still played on TV?

Sure that's the agent's negotiating skills but this started off with the word "deserve." I guess it's a tricky word.
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Hell yeah i'd be pissed at myself if I were jennifer. and pissed at my agent.
And probably pissed at the producer too. She was on that show for too many seasons not to get residuals.

First thing I said in this thread was that you negotiate to pay them a lot more after the first season
 
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indietalk said:
PS. Companies where people invent, some have stock options. If somebody were to invent something at Google I'd imagine they are paid handsomely and stock options equates to ownership per your example.
Click to expand...


Lots and lots and lots of people working at Google don't have stock options.

And even if you do, let's say you have 1% of Google.

That would be worth a LOT, but if you personally invented something which earns Google an extra TEN MILLION DOLLARS that year, what difference would that make to your stock? A mere blip in the increase of its price, it might even not be measurable it is so small.

This is just how it is.

There is not always a tight direct relationship between value created and money earned from it personally, as there are many many many other complex variables involved.
 
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sfoster said:
Lets try a story

Dreamer wants to make a film..
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Let's try a different outcome of your story. Same story; dreamer risks
everything just as you say, but the outcome changes.

The series does well. Not life altering well, but makes a healthy profit.
Pays back everything – all expenses, initial investment, reasonable
overhead – and nets, say, $100,000 in pure profit for this dreamer.

I feel the lead actors deserve a small piece of that. Sure, they took
money up front rather than the risk, yes, they didn't give a shit about
the dream – to them cash is king. Yes, they were complete strangers
when they got the parts. I still think these strangers deserve the cheese
the dreamer risked everything for. Not all of it, but a nice piece.

Maybe for you, sfoster, it's a number? Rather than mix big budget
examples with risk-everything ultra low budget examples I wonder what
that number (profit) might be for you.

If this movie you risked everything on made a profit of $500,000 would
you still not share any of the profits with the strangers you hired? Those
people you already paid hundreds of dollars a day.

What if you really hit the big time? Say, a pure profit of $5,000,000? Do
you believe the actors deserve none of that?
 
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directorik said:
Let's try a different outcome of your story. Same story; dreamer risks
everything just as you say, but the outcome changes.

The series does well. Not life altering well, but makes a healthy profit.
Pays back everything – all expenses, initial investment, reasonable
overhead – and nets, say, $100,000 in pure profit for this dreamer.

I feel the lead actors deserve a small piece of that. Sure, they took
money up front rather than the risk, yes, they didn't give a shit about
the dream – to them cash is king. Yes, they were complete strangers
when they got the parts. I still think these strangers deserve the cheese
the dreamer risked everything for. Not all of it, but a nice piece.

Maybe for you, sfoster, it's a number? Rather than mix big budget
examples with risk-everything ultra low budget examples I wonder what
that number (profit) might be for you.

If this movie you risked everything on made a profit of $500,000 would
you still not share any of the profits with the strangers you hired? Those
people you already paid hundreds of dollars a day.

What if you really hit the big time? Say, a pure profit of $5,000,000? Do
you believe the actors deserve none of that?
Click to expand...

We've got a forum full of M.C. hammers here, they're going to strike it rich with a hit and end up broke with nothing because they gave all their money away :lol:

Alright I'll address all three numbers

$100,000 is not very much money sadly and if you risked everything for it then you should hold on to it.
$500,000 now we're talking. you could buy a house with that much money. and you should.. there probably won't be any left over.
$5,000,000 I would give them a large cash bonus
 
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sfoster said:
lets talk real life

i felt bad for the actors in the original blair witch.
nobody expected that kind of return and they worked for such a little amount it was unfair.
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I agree.

That's one of the reasons I believe actors deserve a piece of the profits.

I suspected with you it was about the number. You believe it's right to
share some of the “cheese”. It seems where we differ is how much profit.
I would start offering a piece at a lower number than you. If I risked
everything and turned a profit of $100,000 I would set aside 25% to divvy
up. I'd take the $75,000 and offer $25,000 to actors (and crew).

You weren't misunderstood. You didn't need to put more in all caps to be
understood. We have different opinions. I, too, look at this from the angle
of a businessman - you believe it's good business to share the profits with
those who helped make the product a success and so do I. We only differ
about the number.

Crazy, isn't it?
 
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