Audio for 8 people indoors

[sfoster]

After attending pax my brother wants to start a gaming channel on youtube.
He asked me to help produce it but there will be 8 people playing at once, all sitting in a row or L shape couch.

I told him that we either need a sound guy to wield a boom pole or we need to buy additional microphones for my 4 channel audio recorder.

What do you think of that approach, using some stands and placing one hypercardioid for every 2 people?

 

[jrusso]

Ah I see.

In my mind the point of the boom operator would be to move the microphone to each persons mouth when they're taking a turn to talk. This way the nice microphone would be close to anyones mouth at the right time.

In your scenario the microphone would be stationary.

I understand now, but even the most experienced boom operator would tell you that's a bad idea, because 8 people can't sit within reaching distance from one end to the other, and even if they did, one person would speak while the other was speaking and thus, you'd have the mic on one person's mouth and not the other, creating all kinds of issues with the audio.

I've run sound on a number of productions where multiple characters are in a scene. In those situations, I suggest a Rode M3 Mic with a cardioid pattern, to pick up all at once by keeping the mic in the center. It's near impossible for the mic to properly capture the audio properly by moving mouth to mouth. No boom op in the world is fast enough.

And since your mic will be so far away from everyone's mouth, kill the A/C, fans, computers, refrigerator, so in Post you can compress your dialogue with a ratio of 20:1 or more and effectively boost the ambient gain. On the Rode M3, there is a +20db gain switch in the battery compartment. Use it.

 

[sfoster]

Cool I will be sure to turn off the fridge in the next room and the AC

 

[jrusso]

Cool I will be sure to turn off the fridge in the next room and the AC

Believe it or not, those make a huge difference.

 

[Sweetie]

computers

I suspect the nature of the show (Live RTS/FPS right?) sort of stops them from turning these off

Depending on how loud the PSU/CPU Fan/GPU Fan(s) are will determine what they'll need to do. Getting those machines as far away from the users as possible would probably be the best idea.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I suggest a Rode M3 Mic with a cardioid pattern, to pick up all at once by keeping the mic in the center.

Which will pick up the person/s sitting in the centre much more than those sitting at the ends (off axis). Another audio post nightmare! Theoretically you could move the mic further away, so it was more equidistant from all the subjects but then of course you'd proportionately increase the background noise (proportionately decrease the SNR) and you'd need proportionately more pre-amp gain, adding still more noise!

... in Post you can compress your dialogue with a ratio of 20:1 or more and effectively boost the ambient gain.

Why would you want to boost the ambience with a high compression ratio (and presumably make-up gain), which will decrease the SNR even further? You're already going to have a pretty shitty SNR to start with, from using a cardioid mic at a distance, in a room with more than 8 people, a camera, a computer (or two), plus any external environmental noise. Personally, I'd probably be looking to do the exact opposite of the advice given; achieving enough SNR in the recording to employ an expander (or possibly compander) in post.

OP: By all means test out jrusso's single cardioid mic suggestion too. IMHO, it's almost guaranteed to result in unusable sound but there's a slight chance it might be good enough for low production value Youtube content.

G

 

[gorillaonabike]

If they're all sitting in a row staring directly in front at screens, what about 4 mics suspended from the ceiling? We know where the noise will be going (gamers staring forward at screens), it would be fairly straightforward to set up, utilise some of your existing kit and you could rig noise absorption material above the mics. This would dampen some of the echo, echo, echo.

Personally, I'd want to lav everyone or gamer headset everyone but as a budget idea, is this feasible?

 

[sfoster]

If they're all sitting in a row staring directly in front at screens, what about 4 mics suspended from the ceiling? We know where the noise will be going (gamers staring forward at screens), it would be fairly straightforward to set up, utilise some of your existing kit and you could rig noise absorption material above the mics. This would dampen some of the echo, echo, echo.

Personally, I'd want to lav everyone or gamer headset everyone but as a budget idea, is this feasible?

I'm hoping the gamer headset with wired usb sounds reasonable and not like they're talking through a tin can. Some of them are only like $20 which sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I'm hoping the gamer headset with wired usb sounds reasonable and not like they're talking through a tin can. Some of them are only like $20 which sounds reasonable to me.

The price sounds reasonable, will the mics themselves sound reasonable?

Caveat emptor - you buy cheap, you get cheap.

 

[sfoster]

The price sounds reasonable, will the mics themselves sound reasonable?

Caveat emptor - you buy cheap, you get cheap.

Cheap enough to do a test and hear

 

[jrusso]

Which will pick up the person/s sitting in the centre much more than those sitting at the ends (off axis). Another audio post nightmare! Theoretically you could move the mic further away, so it was more equidistant from all the subjects but then of course you'd proportionately increase the background noise (proportionately decrease the SNR) and you'd need proportionately more pre-amp gain, adding still more noise!



Why would you want to boost the ambience with a high compression ratio (and presumably make-up gain), which will decrease the SNR even further? You're already going to have a pretty shitty SNR to start with, from using a cardioid mic at a distance, in a room with more than 8 people, a camera, a computer (or two), plus any external environmental noise. Personally, I'd probably be looking to do the exact opposite of the advice given; achieving enough SNR in the recording to employ an expander (or possibly compander) in post.

OP: By all means test out jrusso's single cardioid mic suggestion too. IMHO, it's almost guaranteed to result in unusable sound but there's a slight chance it might be good enough for low production value Youtube content.

G

Wow, you read nothing right. I said to turn EVERYTHING OFF.

Yes, with one mic, the option is to place it far enough back that it's equal distance from everyone. Thus, the need to reduce ALL WHITE NOISE... Which I already said OF COURSE. Had you read all of my post, you would understand that I was giving this suggestion, SHOULD the need be that he can only use 1 mic.

No boom op in the world can cover 8 people with one mic, especially unscripted. Geesh!!!

 

[jrusso]

OP: By all means test out jrusso's single cardioid mic suggestion too. IMHO, it's almost guaranteed to result in unusable sound but there's a slight chance it might be good enough for low production value Youtube content.

G

So, what would be YOUR suggestion for only having ONE MIC to work with?

 

[jrusso]

I suspect the nature of the show (Live RTS/FPS right?) sort of stops them from turning these off

Depending on how loud the PSU/CPU Fan/GPU Fan(s) are will determine what they'll need to do. Getting those machines as far away from the users as possible would probably be the best idea.

As long as the "computers/gaming systems" don't need to appear in frame, you can build a sound baffle by making a box out of rigid styrofoam like OC703 to hide them behind. It'd be fairly cheap and muffle the sound greatly. You'd want to make sure the computers could still breath.

 

[Sweetie]

what would be YOUR suggestion for only having ONE MIC to work with?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but my suggestion would to not shoot it. There's no point in wasting everyone's time if there is no reasonable chance that you'd get a usable result.

It'd be akin to, "I need to project this in Imax but I must use this VHS cam from the 80's to shoot with, how do I do it?" The answer is: Don't.

As long as the "computers/gaming systems" don't need to appear in frame

There are so many ways to skin this cat. If you needed computers in shot, you could have machines that are turned off in shot and still achieve everything else another way. I'd believe the best result would come from putting the machines in another area (one or two rooms away) and lay cables, though that may not be practical.

 

[Alcove Audio]

So, what would be YOUR suggestion for only having ONE MIC to work with?

(Yes, I'm trying to be humorous...)

Go ahead, boom your one mic or plant your one mic, it doesn't matter. Given the specific circumstances:

Eight ( gamers in a row performing unscripted
An untreated room
The very strong possibility of extreme transients
No budget
No skills
No experience

...the audio is going to suck. Why? Because

No matter what you do in this situation you will have absolutely crappy audio.

So, what do you do? You do the best you can and accept the fact that the project will sound like garbage before you begin shooting, and you will not be able to fix it.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Yes, with one mic, the option is to place it far enough back that it's equal distance from everyone. Thus, the need to reduce ALL WHITE NOISE... Which I already said OF COURSE.
... Wow, you read nothing right. I said to turn EVERYTHING OFF.

What, you mean turn off the 9+ people in the room, the camera, the computer/s, external environmental noise like the weather, traffic and/or wildlife and of course stop all the air molecules from moving so that there's no room tone either? I think God would have to be the producer! I take it as a given that all the obviously avoidable noise sources are actually avoided, such as AirCon, fridges, cell phones, etc. (BTW, these things all produce noise, not specifically white noise). From the OP's description, it's clear there's going to be a considerable amount of unavoidable noise, all of which is going to be greatly amplified by using a single distant (effectively "room") mic.

As long as the "computers/gaming systems" don't need to appear in frame, you can build a sound baffle by making a box out of rigid styrofoam like OC703 to hide them behind.

Why would you want to build a sound baffle around a computer which is switched off? ... OK, I think we've covered your shouted "turn EVERYTHING OFF" statement. Moving on, if you're talking about building a sound proof/reducing box in which the computer sits, that's a poor suggestion due to the danger/possibility of the computer overheating. If you're talking about just placing pieces of material (OC703 for example) between the computer/s and the mic, that's not going to be effective.

No boom op in the world can cover 8 people with one mic, especially unscripted. Geesh!!!

You accuse me of reading "nothing right" but where did I state a boom op should try to cover 8 unscripted people? Geesh!!!

So, what would be YOUR suggestion for only having ONE MIC to work with?

I would never suggest ONE MIC in the first place! Given the scenario presented by the OP, I don't believe it's possible to achieve acceptable sound quality with a single mic. And, the OP already stated that he wanted to try for a "step better" than just a single plant mic (post #1!

G

 

[jrusso]

You accuse me of reading "nothing right" but where did I state a boom op should try to cover 8 unscripted people? Geesh!!!

But this had been said in previous posts by the OP. I never said you said it. Thus, you didn't really read. You just commented on my post, out of context. If you're not going to read my posts, and the previous posts of the OP, you should really not jump into the middle of the conversation. Most of what you've said is taking me out of context.

I would never suggest ONE MIC in the first place! Given the scenario presented by the OP, I don't believe it's possible to achieve acceptable sound quality with a single mic. And, the OP already stated that he wanted to try for a "step better" than just a single plant mic (post #1!

Right, and I told him that the "step better" option of using a boom operator was a worse scenario than planting one mic in the middle of the room.

None of what I said was an "optimal" situation. I was merely giving tips for getting the best audio, due to the lack of budget and experience of the OP.

The optimal conditions would be to have a 788T with 8 wireless lavs on separate channels, but the OP doesn't seem to have those resources.

 

[jrusso]

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but my suggestion would to not shoot it. There's no point in wasting everyone's time if there is no reasonable chance that you'd get a usable result.

I was merely giving advice based on the worse case scenario of only having one mic. I'm not saying it would be good. I'm just saying that it would be better if he follows my tips.

 

[jrusso]

Go ahead, boom your one mic or plant your one mic, it doesn't matter. Given the specific circumstances:

Once again, I was merely giving advice to improve the situation. The OP was the one who suggested the 1 Mic with a boom operator, to which I was merely suggesting was a worse suggestion/idea than using 1 mic on a boom pole, with all ambient noises reduced by turning off all computers, AC, refrigerator, etc...

Personally, I think Sweetie has it right to place the computers in a separate room.

Also, you mention an "untreated" room. I gave advice for that in an earlier post.

1. Carpet on the floors
2. Black Blankets hanging in and off frame. (The black is for appearance only)

Don't need to cover 100% of the walls. The rule of thumb is 70%.

 

[jrusso]

You do the best you can and accept the fact that the project will sound like garbage before you begin shooting, and you will not be able to fix it.

Right, which is what I was doing. I was giving advice as to how to limit the audio issues. I never even implied for one second that this was how to make it sound good. Just how to make it sound the best as possible with the gear he has access to.

 

[sfoster]

No skills
No experience

...the audio is going to suck.