Advice on doing ADR.

[harmonica44]

My my short film, the sound guy left the production before shooting, and I wasn't able to find a replacement. I was forced to do most of it so far without a person to hold the mic, cause the people I did get to hold it, either did not hold and aim it properly enough, or they couldn't keep quiet and made too much noise that got recorded. One person holding the mic kept constantly laughing and couldn't stop. I tried disciplining them as best I could but I had to start shooting and get it done in time, with or without live sound recording. Some of the sound might be usable but I'll have to clean it up first to know.

So I'm pretty much forced to redo all of it with ADR. I don't have access to one of those rooms, to block out all the unwanted background noise, but I'm looking. Should I not be able to get one, what's the best way to mimic the original room noise of that scene, since a persons voice sounds different in one room, than another.

Another thing is getting the actors to talk like they are actually acting, rather than just trying to get the lines right. Any advice on making this easier?


One more thing. I have two mics. The NTG-3 and the 4053b. Ones a hyper and ones a shotgun, but with the actors talking that close into them, there is hardly a different it seems. If talking that close, is one mic better than the other for ADR? Thanks.

 

[PaulGriffith]

Keep in mind that every one who donated their time and effort to this was promised a finished project... they donated their time. Take it to completion, I have projects with the same problems you're describing that I have fundamentally abandoned... I feel like I've let down my actors and crew who worked on those projects with me.

Do the whole process, then even if you don't release it, you can give copies (which you most likely promised to your cast/crew) to the folks who worked on it. Working this through to the end will teach you about post as well, not just production... continue the education.

No doubt. He needs to finish it and release it, I was just questioning if it's worth all the time and money he's putting in to polish... Well, you know the expression. Just gotta figure out where the reasonable time/money line is (for him and the other crew coming out for ADR and reshoots) and do the best you can without crossing it.

 

[harmonica44]

No doubt. He needs to finish it and release it, I was just questioning if it's worth all the time and money he's putting in to polish... Well, you know the expression. Just gotta figure out where the reasonable time/money line is (for him and the other crew coming out for ADR and reshoots) and do the best you can without crossing it.

Well, right now it's kind of a paradox since I need to spend money in order to finish it. Not sure what to do. I might not mind spending more money if I know what's the best to get for my money. I keep running into surprises since I don't know every thing about the equipment until I use it.

Certainly you can afford the Blue Icicle; it's only $40. This way you can use a proper work flow doing the ADR, and it will greatly simplify the process. From my perspective $40 is worth saving yourself the numerous problems you will face trying to do ADR on the Fostex and attempting to sync later.

It's hard to believe that a $40 blue icicle will be as good of quality as the $600 4053b though. I thought it would be best to just use what I have, unless the blue icicle is that good. Does it come with a mic gain and fader?

Before I make any decisions on what's affordable for me, and best quality solution I need to know one thing about ADR. For example, there is a long monologue an actor says in my short. This is the part that couldn't be recorded cause the boom holder kept laughing at the monologue, and couldn't stop. So we did it without a mic, just to finish the scene in time.

Now if I keep rerecording the monologue, several times, how much of a break in between sentences or words do I need? Like sets say I got the best recording of it, but the words do not quite match up in one part. And I need to take different sentences from different recordings of the monologue and put them together to get it to match. How much of a break do I have in between words, where I can cut, and put another recording in, and have it match up, without overlapping? I've looked up sites on ADR and couldn't find anything on this.

 

[knightly]

Dialog editing was going to be one of the topics for my post production screencasts... perhaps that needs to come earlier than later.

 

[Alcove Audio]

It's hard to believe that a $40 blue icicle will be as good of quality as the $600 4053b though. I thought it would be best to just use what I have, unless the blue icicle is that good. Does it come with a mic gain and fader?

It's straight XLR to USB converter; what do you want for $40? It will get the job done. You can spend more for something like the $99 Shure X2u, or one of the boxes I mentioned in my previous post, but I thought that the idea was to save money.

So we did it without a mic, just to finish the scene in time.

Save time on the set, waste more in post.

Now if I keep rerecording the monologue, several times, how much of a break in between sentences or words do I need? Like sets say I got the best recording of it, but the words do not quite match up in one part. And I need to take different sentences from different recordings of the monologue and put them together to get it to match. How much of a break do I have in between words, where I can cut, and put another recording in, and have it match up, without overlapping?

Did you get Purcels "Dialog Editing"? You've hit on one of those "no matter how much I tell you, you won't get it until you do it" situations.

Record the ADR one line at a time. If the actor is really rolling let him/her go, but that's very rare.. Always - repeat, ALWAYS - save every single take.

You need sync, but you also need performance; go for performance.

Right now you're squawking about getting an audio interface - something you really need if you're going to do audio post. What are you going to do when I tell you to get Vocalign? The Project version is $300, the Pro version is $600. It's one of those necessary tools if you're doing ADR; it does in about 2 minutes what will take an experienced editor half of an hour, and will take you much longer.


This is what I mean about getting it right on the set. Okay, you may have had a moron swinging the boom, and your PSM bailed on you (hmmmmmm). But good audio post tools are EXPENSIVE, there's a pretty steep learning curve for someone without audio experience, etc., etc., etc. This is why I harp on getting the production sound right.

Yeah, I know, you'll moan about "it's not my fault", but the lesson remains the same for you and everyone else.

 

[knightly]

Save time on the set, waste more in post.

Mind you, this is a legitimate solution. Depending on the size of your crew, spending more time on set requires more people to wait on getting the problem sorted out, whereas post is 3 people waiting for you... although if you're at the point where you have a larger crew, you probably have a more reliable sound team and will have to go for the post solution less frequently.

 

[GuerrillaAngel]

Perhaps we're setting a too high bar here for H-44 . . .

I believe the only task H-44 MUST do when it comes to audio is to ensure he has CLEAR and normalized dialogue throughout the film (whether through ADR or not) . . .

then . . .

If he's still up to it, fix the room tone issues . . .

then . . .

(I'd like to see him find a way to get out of post without quitting because of a too high bar set for sound.)

What say you all?

 

[harmonica44]

Okay well I want to concentrate on ADR since getting someone who can hold the boom or a even a pro sound guy to stick with production is very difficult. I need a back up plan. What if I sold my current FR2LE for a good price, and used some of that money to buy a field recorder and audio interface in one? I have that Dialogue Editing book, ready to order. I'm going to order it as soon as I get a couple of Christmas gifts sorted out that I am ordering as well from Amazon.

In the mean time, I will highly consider getting both a field recorder and audio interface in one, if I can sell my FR2LE for a good price to get the money, and it's worth it. So can Adoby Audition do what the Vocalign will do, or do I need the Vocalign too? I can see about renting a mixer and try to get everyone in to dub, when it can be rented out to me, but the rental store, has always been booked solid for months, every time I've tried in the past for things. So probably won't happen.

 

[Alcove Audio]

If you sell the FR-2 you're going to take a hit; even lightly used ones go for about $300 to $400. Hang on to it; you'll hopefully find a decent PMS/boom-op You can even rent your kit out to other aspiring filmmakers in your area, or work as a PMS/boom-op yourself to make a few bucks and gain some experience. Why not just get one of the inexpensive audio interfaces I mentioned? The point from the audio perspective is to keep building on what you have; if you're going to trade something in you should be trading up.

My two ducats,

Uncle Bob

 

[harmonica44]

Well I wouldn't feel comfortable renting it out. I can't trust some of the actors to not show up, and I can't trust a person to hold a boom correctly. One of my actors actually stole one of my props before he quit and took off. I can't trust people with equipment therefore.

The thing is is that I just have no money left for this right now. I can't buy an inepensive mixer, but those inexpensive ones have low quality amps, so won't it sound weird if half the sound was recorded at much better amplication then the other half? What if I download a free trial of Vocalign? Do they let you keep the sound you made after? Some sites don't.

I also had the actors say their lines into the Fostex a few times, after we shot. But the paragraphs of dialogue do not match. It seems I can only keep the paragraphs from the original take, and not choose ones, from different takes, like I was told here before to do. Unless I am suppose to break up the sentences and use the best sentences from each. I'll try that. Does Vocalign work on matching dialogue that has already been recorded or does it only work on a live feed? I just found out it doesn't support Audition though, which is what I have. It supports pro tools but will I be able to download a free trial of pro tools, create all the dialogue, then put it in with the dialogue in Audition, or what?

 

[gorillaonabike]

Well I wouldn't feel comfortable renting it out. I can't trust some of the actors to not show up, and I can't trust a person to hold a boom correctly. One of my actors actually stole one of my props before he quit and took off. I can't trust people with equipment therefore.

The thing is is that I just have no money left for this right now. I can't buy an inepensive mixer, but those inexpensive ones have low quality amps, so won't it sound weird if half the sound was recorded at much better amplication then the other half? What if I download a free trial of Vocalign? Do they let you keep the sound you made after? Some sites don't.

I also had the actors say their lines into the Fostex a few times, after we shot. But the paragraphs of dialogue do not match. It seems I can only keep the paragraphs from the original take, and not choose ones, from different takes, like I was told here before to do. Unless I am suppose to break up the sentences and use the best sentences from each. I'll try that. Does Vocalign work on matching dialogue that has already been recorded or does it only work on a live feed? I just found out it doesn't support Audition though, which is what I have. It supports pro tools but will I be able to download a free trial of pro tools, create all the dialogue, then put it in with the dialogue in Audition, or what?

I'm in post at the mo. We should both put our shorts on IndieTalk at the same time. Maybe 1st Jan or something like that in the New Year.

 

[knightly]

Read the dialog editing book and the dialog section in the jay rose book on post production audio... you'd be surprised with how much leeway you have on the dialog if you know how to cut around words, syllables and even individual sounds.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Does Vocalign work on matching dialogue that has already been recorded or does it only work on a live feed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLaslm2kPyM

 

[harmonica44]

Okay, Thanks for all the input. I found that video earlier today, and checked it out. It's not that I don't want to buy this new stuff, to help, it's just right now, I can't afford it. I will research a lot more about Vocalign. I will have to wait probably at least three months and have to make do for what I have for now. One problem is though is that my lead actress is moving after Christmas. She is in the final scene left to shoot. Two of the actors left before their scene had even started filming. So right now I need to concentrate more on the current of finding two new guys, and getting the scene, and everything else done before January. I am going to record all her ADR before she leaves, and do quite a few takes. I don't think she's appreciate it if I mailed her the DVD later, with someone else's voice on her lines, of course.

So since I want to get all of her dialogue done now, how do I know how much of her previous recorded dialogue on set, sounds good enough? If it sounds good played back through some small speakers, does that mean it will sound good in general? What counts as good sound? I can weed out the OBVIOUSLY distorted audio, but how I tell if it's too 'subtly' bad?

 

[knightly]

At these budgets, don't worry about it so much. You have limited crew and limited budgets, there's only so much you can expect for quality. Grow your crew over the next 10 shorts until you have a nice solid group of filmmakers... then worry about perfection.

Here's a phrase we used for a long time to keep pushing forward on a project... "Done is better than right" Specifically, we meant it in terms of being better to get to the next part with what we had rather than spending so much time on one single thing that you never move forward past it and the project suffers by not being completed... move forward, EVER FORWARD.

 

[harmonica44]

Well I don't know if I want to make that many shorts before my first feature. Maybe I could do 2 or 3 a year till then, with real actors that is as oppose to shooting myself. I see what you mean about getting it done. I have a few shots I am uncomfortable with and wish I did better but forced to keep them, in order to get it done.

 

[knightly]

Well, I'm not sure what your current level of success is other than the posts (no pix, no audio, no clips posted here)... so I'm basing on my own experience... if you work REALLY HARD after making your first feature with no shorts before that, you'll find lots of things that need improving. Shorts allow you to target specific failings as a filmmaker and improve them while only losing a weekend for the rest of your cast/crew. I shot a feature, then a dozen shorts, and we're finally at the point where I'm happy with the quality of the productions were putting out.

 

[Alcove Audio]

It's not that I don't want to buy this new stuff, to help, it's just right now, I can't afford it. I will research a lot more about Vocalign.

Then you'll have to edit the ADRed dialog the old fashioned way - syllable by syllable. Line up the ADR underneath the original production dialog, and you put a cut at each syllable. Then you time stretch or compress (with all kinds of fun cross-fades) each word fragment to make the ADR waveform match the production dialog waveform.

Guess what? Before digital the actors had to keep doing the ADR until they got it right.

There's too much reliance on "fix it in post" these days. Before digital special effects had to be done on-set. Color matching was thought all the way through by the DP before a frame was shot. Up until the mid '60's the Production Sound Mixer had the same status as the DP. The only excuse for poor production sound was the fault of the director and/or producer for choosing a noisy location.

 

[Askvb]

Best mic

I'm currently working on a feature film (about 50min), but since we only had five days on set, we where forced to shoot a lot of the material in strong wind - hence a lot of the audio is useless despite the fact that we used NTG-2 and a dead cat wind muff. We're going to replace the audio in post, but since we've already blown our budget, the only mic's available is the røde NTG-2 and NT-1. Which one of them is the best to use? And which mic is the ideal to use for ADR (if we're ought to by one).

TL;DR: Is Røde NTG-2 or NT-1 the best to use for ADR?

 

[Alcove Audio]

Since you and the actors lack experience with the process I would lean towards the NT-1a, mostly because it has a more forgiving polar pattern.

 

[Askvb]

Since you and the actors lack experience with the process I would lean towards the NT-1a, mostly because it has a more forgiving polar pattern.

True - thanks for quick response - but do you know of there is any sound quality-differences regarding how the ambient room-noise is recorded (expect that NT-1a is stronger in the low frequencies)?

And do you have any tips on the best mic to use if one is going to buy a new?