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Advice on doing ADR.

H

harmonica44

My my short film, the sound guy left the production before shooting, and I wasn't able to find a replacement. I was forced to do most of it so far without a person to hold the mic, cause the people I did get to hold it, either did not hold and aim it properly enough, or they couldn't keep quiet and made too much noise that got recorded. One person holding the mic kept constantly laughing and couldn't stop. I tried disciplining them as best I could but I had to start shooting and get it done in time, with or without live sound recording. Some of the sound might be usable but I'll have to clean it up first to know.

So I'm pretty much forced to redo all of it with ADR. I don't have access to one of those rooms, to block out all the unwanted background noise, but I'm looking. Should I not be able to get one, what's the best way to mimic the original room noise of that scene, since a persons voice sounds different in one room, than another.

Another thing is getting the actors to talk like they are actually acting, rather than just trying to get the lines right. Any advice on making this easier?


One more thing. I have two mics. The NTG-3 and the 4053b. Ones a hyper and ones a shotgun, but with the actors talking that close into them, there is hardly a different it seems. If talking that close, is one mic better than the other for ADR? Thanks.
 
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Find a room that's reasonably quiet and not echo-y. Avoid rooms that are cubical especially, and the more walls that aren't flat to each other is better.

The point of a shotgun microphone is to get good sound without getting in the shot. Since there is no camera in ADR, use whichever mic suits the room best.

For the actual recording, have the actors listen to their lines from the on-set recording, then basically repeat themselves. Your audio software may have a way to loop playback (pretty much line by line, I think) and then let them mimic themselves a few times to get pacing and inflection as it was, then punch-in and record the line, probably more than once. Google ADR, especially for your software.

Don't try to make the dry recording sound like the original room (unless you've got someone needing to be way off mic for a shot). Get good sound, then later add whatever effect you need to make it sound better. Use the room tone you recorded originally to add the sound of the room back in. If your audio was so noisy that you don't have 30 seconds of room tone, consider returning to that or a similar location with an audio recorder.
 
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I got the original room tones on a few scenes, but there a couple where I couldn't get a boom holder that day at all. I guess I should have recorded the room tone while I was there but didn't think of it. I still have access two those two rooms easily and can get it. I will be using the FR2-LE, so how exactly is the best way to match up the recording on there, with the recorded dialogue from the original camera file, on my laptop?
 
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The Fostex is the wrong tool. You need to work in your NLE or DAW so you can see as well as hear how the ADR is working.

Use a nice quiet room in your residence.

Put the mic - in its shock-mount - on a mic stand.

Plug the mic into your computers audio interface.

Set up the headphones for the talent.

Adjust the mic so that it is slightly above and to the side of the actor.

Make sure that both you and the talent have a script. Have a marked and highlighted post production script for each character (check out the binder the actors use in the "King Kong" video). Check off lines as they are completed.

Set up a two-pop for the ADR lines. (I prefer a four-pop as do the inexperienced actors I usually work with.)

Set up a loop of the line to be replaced with extra "in" and "out" time.

Start with getting sync, then work on the performance.

If the talent has difficulty performing with the production sound dialog they can say it right after. Then you will have to "slide" the ADRed line to match the start of the original to check sync.

After you have completed the scene go back and do the first three or four lines - the actor is now really into the flow and you'll get a better performance.

Repeat for the next scene.


Repeat for the next actor.



Record a nice, long room-tone.


STUPID STUFF:

Make sure that the room is warm.

Make sure that the talent has plenty of room temperature water.

Have some (watered down) lemons or lemon juice handy in case the talent has mucus and/or phlegm problems.

Have the actor shut off their cell phone, PDA and/or other device(s).

Have the actor remove any jewelry that makes noise.

Have the actor remove any clothing that makes excessive noise - corduroy, nylon, etc.

Have a seat handy.

Have tissues handy.

Keep your attitude and temper in check - be positive and supportive!!!

Be prepared for the most frustrating, aggravating, infuriating couple of days you have ever faced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwZwTP52aIc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2HKN1N2SZQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBlrMa6k9E



Now that you have ADRed the scene you will have to do Foley and create an ambience.


CLASS DISMISSED!!!!!!!!!
 
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It's another discussion, but in a nutshell, the room-tone is what fills in the gaps between the lines of dialog. It's really empty air, but every room has its own signature characteristics. However, the audience has never been in the room where the scene was shot, so has no idea of what the room really sounds like; any reasonable substitute will do just as well.

As I say often, filmmakers are in the business of creating illusions, so "reality" - I guess the term should really be actuality - is not important. The job of every craft is to create an believable artificial reality that is completely unnoticed except at the subliminal level except where it serves the story to have that artificial reality noticed.

This is really getting into the sonic background or ambience portion of sound design but, as long as we're on the topic... In the film "Titanic" the sound team went to great lengths to record many hours of a similar period engine (early 1900s) at multiple stages of operation. It's always present in the mix; almost unnoticeable in first class, very noticeable in steerage and, of course, quite loud and in your face in the engine compartment. It's there, but the audience doesn't really hear it. Now, being "always present" is not 100% true; the recordings of the engine sounds appropriate to the scene location are always placed in the audio tracks through the complete scene by the sound editors so they are always available to the rerecording team. They and the director make the mix decisions. When an intimate scene requires quiet or when it conflicts with other sound design elements or the score the engine sound disappears completely. Now you've got me rambling on about the mix process...

For the most part the mix process follows the way Michelangelo did his sculpture. Michelangelo maintained that the sculpture was already inside the marble, all he had to do was cut away the unneeded bits. With audio post you have to create the marble, so to speak. The dialog tracks (made up of production dialog, dialog wilds and ADR), Foley, sound FX, backgrounds/ambiences, diegetic/source music (from the radio, stereo, band/DJ, etc.) and the score make up the marble. You put in every last detail. Then, at the mix, you chip away the unneeded bits. The great Walter Murch codified the "2 1/2 rule" that many sound folks adhere to - the audience can only "concentrate" on two and a half sounds at any give time. The BG/ambience by default is half a sound as long as it's not very loud; the other two sounds will be the dialog and the Foley. The score will come in, so the BG/ambience can disappear as long as it's not important. This, of course, can change on a minute by minute or even second by second basis, especially in action scenes.

Anyway, enough of this rambling.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
It's another discussion, but in a nutshell, the room-tone is what fills in the gaps between the lines of dialog. It's really empty air, but every room has its own signature characteristics. However, the audience has never been in the room where the scene was shot, so has no idea of what the room really sounds like; any reasonable substitute will do just as well.

As I say often, filmmakers are in the business of creating illusions, so "reality" - I guess the term should really be actuality - is not important. The job of every craft is to create an believable artificial reality that is completely unnoticed except at the subliminal level except where it serves the story to have that artificial reality noticed.

This is really getting into the sonic background or ambience portion of sound design but, as long as we're on the topic... In the film "Titanic" the sound team went to great lengths to record many hours of a similar period engine (early 1900s) at multiple stages of operation. It's always present in the mix; almost unnoticeable in first class, very noticeable in steerage and, of course, quite loud and in your face in the engine compartment. It's there, but the audience doesn't really hear it. Now, being "always present" is not 100% true; the recordings of the engine sounds appropriate to the scene location are always placed in the audio tracks through the complete scene by the sound editors so they are always available to the rerecording team. They and the director make the mix decisions. When an intimate scene requires quiet or when it conflicts with other sound design elements or the score the engine sound disappears completely. Now you've got me rambling on about the mix process...

For the most part the mix process follows the way Michelangelo did his sculpture. Michelangelo maintained that the sculpture was already inside the marble, all he had to do was cut away the unneeded bits. With audio post you have to create the marble, so to speak. The dialog tracks (made up of production dialog, dialog wilds and ADR), Foley, sound FX, backgrounds/ambiences, diegetic/source music (from the radio, stereo, band/DJ, etc.) and the score make up the marble. You put in every last detail. Then, at the mix, you chip away the unneeded bits. The great Walter Murch codified the "2 1/2 rule" that many sound folks adhere to - the audience can only "concentrate" on two and a half sounds at any give time. The BG/ambience by default is half a sound as long as it's not very loud; the other two sounds will be the dialog and the Foley. The score will come in, so the BG/ambience can disappear as long as it's not important. This, of course, can change on a minute by minute or even second by second basis, especially in action scenes.

Anyway, enough of this rambling.
Click to expand...

Okay thanks. I thought I had to record the room tone, as well as make the actors voice ALSO sound like it was in the room. I got room tone, and I can just put that in, and make it repeat itself.

Alcove Audio said:
The Fostex is the wrong tool. You need to work in your NLE or DAW so you can see as well as hear how the ADR is working.

Use a nice quiet room in your residence.

Put the mic - in its shock-mount - on a mic stand.

Plug the mic into your computers audio interface.

Set up the headphones for the talent.

Adjust the mic so that it is slightly above and to the side of the actor.

Make sure that both you and the talent have a script. Have a marked and highlighted post production script for each character (check out the binder the actors use in the "King Kong" video). Check off lines as they are completed.

Set up a two-pop for the ADR lines. (I prefer a four-pop as do the inexperienced actors I usually work with.)

Set up a loop of the line to be replaced with extra "in" and "out" time.

Start with getting sync, then work on the performance.

If the talent has difficulty performing with the production sound dialog they can say it right after. Then you will have to "slide" the ADRed line to match the start of the original to check sync.

After you have completed the scene go back and do the first three or four lines - the actor is now really into the flow and you'll get a better performance.

Repeat for the next scene.


Repeat for the next actor.



Record a nice, long room-tone.


STUPID STUFF:

Make sure that the room is warm.

Make sure that the talent has plenty of room temperature water.

Have some (watered down) lemons or lemon juice handy in case the talent has mucus and/or phlegm problems.

Have the actor shut off their cell phone, PDA and/or other device(s).

Have the actor remove any jewelry that makes noise.

Have the actor remove any clothing that makes excessive noise - corduroy, nylon, etc.

Have a seat handy.

Have tissues handy.

Keep your attitude and temper in check - be positive and supportive!!!

Be prepared for the most frustrating, aggravating, infuriating couple of days you have ever faced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwZwTP52aIc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2HKN1N2SZQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBlrMa6k9E



Now that you have ADRed the scene you will have to do Foley and create an ambience.


CLASS DISMISSED!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...


I can't afford a digital audio station, but have the programs on my computer. The only preamps I have though, are the ones in the FR2LE.
 
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Most NLEs have "dubbing" capabilities. Vegas is especially good at this as it started out as an audio editing system (bet you didn't know that!). All you need is a passable audio interface. Since you're doing ADR you'll also have to do Foley, and that requires a reasonably quiet preamp. A few firewire boxes that have a decent low-budget rep are the TC Electronic Konnekt 6 and the Focusrite Saffire PRO 14. They're around $200. There are also quite a few USB boxes in that price range and lower, but I have not used them or know anything about their quality (Lexicon, Tascam, Roland and ART have good reps). Many of these units come with a basic DAW like Sonar or Cubase. I do know that Adobe will only work with firewire boxes.

If you really want to go whole hog the Sound Devices Mix Pre-D ($750) is a kick-ass field mixer that can also be used as a USB audio interface.

See? When you screw up the production sound a large chunk of your audio post is completely FUBAR - and expensive!
 
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harmonica44 said:
Okay thanks. I thought I had to record the room tone, as well as make the actors voice ALSO sound like it was in the room. I got room tone, and I can just put that in, and make it repeat itself.
Click to expand...

You want the same room-tone you recorded the ADR in; you don't have the chops or equipment to make the ADR match a different room-tone. After the ADR session is done and the talent leaves just hit record and capture five minutes. And make sure that you don't make any noise! All it costs is five minutes and three megs of disk space - save yourself all of the later hassles; you won't even have to loop the room-tone.
 
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Yeah I know. I tried my best, but when people cannot keep quiet while holding the mic, or hold the mic still, what can I do, but relieve of them of their duty really. I had to act in the movie too, and couldn't hold the mic a lot of the time.

Well I think since I don't have any more money for budget now, I will have to use the FR2-LE and make the best of it. If I had known that getting someone to hold the mic competently was this difficult I would have spent my money on ADR equipment instead of field recorder, and done all ADR after. Well I've done some practice myself by recording onto the FR2LE and trying to make my lines match so far.

What if I just have the actor say their lines into the FR2-LE and listen through the headphones. During this I will be playing back the footage and watching and listen to see if it matches. Could that work? Is it possible using the software to break up the sentences a little to make it match, if you have to? Like if I say a sentence a little too fast, can I break up where it doesn't sync and move a word over, so it does sink?
 
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Just how horrible is the set sound?

With the problems you've been posting, you might need to step back and evaluate how much money and effort is this project worth completely saving. You aren't going to make money off it, you aren't going to get major exposure and as mean as it sounds, you probably aren't going to win any festival awards (assuming you get in at all, it's hard and expensive). The whole point of short film #1 is education, and man, you've learned a hell of a lot.

I'm not saying to not finish this at all, finish it. But is fixing noisy audio here and there really going to distract from the picture and continuity and edit problems you've brought up? Maybe it will save the project, but probably not. ADR is hard with pro actors and a pro engineer. Can't imagine sitting in front of a DAW for the first time missing equipment with a newbie actor and pulling it all off.

Again, just make sure that this is all worth it to you. Does the desire product qualify the required expense. Are you willing to lay $100,000 for a used Hyundai, even of it has crazy sentimental value and you really really want it?

And one of the first things I shot was for 8th grade history. With a JVC VHS camera we did a wrestling match between Lincoln and Jerrerson Davis (I think?) representing the Civil War out in a windy field. It was awful, couldn't hear a thing. After I edited it together using two VCR's I played back the final tape's video an audio from the text to speech program on my computer because I couldn't get actors over (and wouldn't know what to do if I could) for voiceovers so the teacher could hear what was going on.

We got an A, the class laughed hysterically and it was better than most of the other videos. The computer voice sold it.

In the past several years with pro gear and crew, we've shot entire scenes and shorts that once we started to edit realized "man, this is terrible. NObody will laugh but us." so we didn't release. One was just two actors, two crew. One was like 6 Crew and 12 actors and a really long day. Sucks, but what do you do?I'm sure others here have been there too.

Work with what you got! At least until you learn how to use it.
 
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Well, three of the actors really want to finish it, with the sound complete. Even though I kept having actors coming and going which caused, delays, the three lead actors stayed for whole the project and didn't miss a day! I was only able to capture good audio in one, scene, the rest I couldn't get a good boom pole operator, or the room was too noisy with people in the next rooms. I don't want to buy a new audio interface, out of panic or pressure, cause of money, and I want to research it a lot more, and buy the best one for me. Not the most expensive per say, but one with some features that will work best for my situation of being forced to use ADR on my budgets.

Since the three actors really want to complete it, I will see about using the Fostex for now I guess, and try to listen on the headphones while watching the movie. This will be after I shot the last remaining scene, and have edited it the film. I want to use the right equipment but don't want to spend more money, since I don't have any more to spend now, and since I'm not sure what equipment is right for me now. I might have to sell the Fostex first, if I were to.
 
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At the very least, get a y-adapter for the headphone jack and let the actor listen as well. This is for playback of the source (original clip from your editing computer). Use the fostex to record the ADR. Play the clip and then have the actor repeat it. Do this several times, first focusing on cadance/temp0, then perfomance. It's quite a bit of work because you'll then have to import the clips and manually sync. Good luck.

harmonica44 said:
Well, three of the actors really want to finish it, with the sound complete. I was only able to capture good audio in one, scene, the rest I couldn't get a good boom pole operator, or the room was too noisy with people in the next rooms. I don't want to buy a new audio interface, out of panic or pressure, cause of money, and I want to research it a lot more, and buy the best one for me. Not the most expensive per say, but one with some features that will work best for my situation of being forced to use ADR on my budgets.

Since the three actors really want to complete it, I will see about using the Fostex for now I guess, and try to listen on the headphones while watching the movie. This will be after I shot the last remaining scene, and have edited it the film. I want to use the right equipment but don't want to spend more money, since I don't have any more to spend now, and since I'm not sure what equipment is right for me now. I might have to sell the Fostex first, if I were to.
Click to expand...
 
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PaulGriffith said:
...how much money and effort is this project worth completely saving. You aren't going to make money off it...
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that every one who donated their time and effort to this was promised a finished project... they donated their time. Take it to completion, I have projects with the same problems you're describing that I have fundamentally abandoned... I feel like I've let down my actors and crew who worked on those projects with me.

Do the whole process, then even if you don't release it, you can give copies (which you most likely promised to your cast/crew) to the folks who worked on it. Working this through to the end will teach you about post as well, not just production... continue the education.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Since the three actors really want to complete it, I will see about using the Fostex for now I guess, and try to listen on the headphones while watching the movie.
Click to expand...

Certainly you can afford the Blue Icicle; it's only $40. This way you can use a proper work flow doing the ADR, and it will greatly simplify the process. From my perspective $40 is worth saving yourself the numerous problems you will face trying to do ADR on the Fostex and attempting to sync later.
 
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At the film department at our university, we used plywood and 2x4s to make a box with non-90 degree angles, then lined it with dense eggcrate foam to make an anechoic chamber on the cheap :)
 
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