A Stereo Warning!!

[AudioPostExpert]

I thought a post about stereo was called for because there are some serious problems with stereo that many of you are probably unaware of. Some context and explanation: Many of you on this forum will at some stage be looking to enter film festivals. Most film festivals, certainly all the more major ones, take place in commercial cinemas and commercial cinemas virtually always support a range of channel formats:

1.0 Dolby, Mono (C)
2.0 Dolby, Stereo (L, R)
3.0 DCP, Dolby (L, C, R)
4.0 DCP, Dolby Stereo/Surround (L, C, R, S)
5.0 DCP (L, C, R, Ls, Rs)
5.1 DCP, Dolby Digital, DTS, SDDS (L, C, R, Ls, Rs, LFE)
Bigger cinemas (major film festivals), often also support the formats:
6.1 DCP, Dolby EX, DTS ES, SDDS (L, C, R, Ls, Rs, Cs, LFE)
7.1 DCP, Dolby 7.1, SDDS (L, Lc, C, Rc, R, Ls, Rs, LFE)

A couple of questions: 1. Of all these channel formats which do you think works the least well and has never been considered a film format? 2. Of these formats, which do micro/no/low budget indie filmmakers use most commonly? I'll give you a clue, the answer to both questions is the same and is also in the title of this post!

Before anyone starts screaming "BS", I'm not saying stereo is terrible format, it's a very clever and very good format for many audio applications, just not for films destined to be screened in a cinema. The reason for this lies in how stereo manipulates the way we perceive sound (psychoacoustics) to create the illusion of a sound-field. The way we are able to tell where a sound is coming from is quite complex but a simple explanation is: When, for example, a sound occurs to the left of us, the sound waves hit our left ear a tiny fraction of a second before they hit our right ear. Our brain subconsciously works out this arrival time (phase) difference and converts it into the perception of position. So even with our eyes shut, we can tell where a sound is coming from to an accuracy of about half a degree. Of all the formats I listed, Stereo is the odd one out, it's the only one which doesn't have a centre (C) channel. When you pan a sound to the centre in stereo, what you are actually doing is playing the same sound out of both speakers simultaneously. Providing you are sitting equidistant (in the middle) of the two speakers, the sound from the left speaker will hit your left ear at the same time as the sound from the right speaker hits your right ear and as far as the brain is concerned, the only way the same sound can hit both your ears simultaneously is if the sound is coming from directly in front of you (in the centre). This illusionary centre position is called the Phantom Centre.

All very clever and effective but there's an obvious problem; if we are sitting closer to one speaker than the other, won't the sound arrive earlier in the ear closest to that speaker and break or distort the illusion? The answer is "yes" but when we are listening to our home stereo system, TV or computer speakers, the speakers are only a few feet apart and we are only sitting a few feet away, so the stereo image isn't very wide to start with and the distortion of the illusion probably won't be particularly dramatic. However, as the room gets bigger and the speakers are positioned further apart, this positional distortion becomes more pronounced. Take a look at this diagram:

If we imagine the room in the diagram to be a cinema, the speakers may be 50ft or more apart. For various reasons, including the fact that the characters talking tend to be in the centre of frame, dialogue is almost always panned to the centre. If you were sitting in a cinema in the position of the Blue person (or anywhere on the same vertical plane), the perceived position of the dialogue would line up with the visual position of the character talking. But our Red audience member has a problem, he/she is going to hear the character's dialogue coming from about 20ft to the left of where they expect (the character's on screen position). This will sound quite off-putting and is likely to disengage them from the film, a filmmaking disaster! There are only two solutions: 1. Only allow 10 or so people at a time into the cinema to watch your film and make sure they all sit along that vertical plane in the middle or 2. Add a speaker to the centre of the screen. With a centre speaker, no matter where you are sitting, the sound will always be perceived to be coming from the centre and will always line up with the character's position and audience expectation. Obviously, only the second solution is sensible and that's why all the film channel formats have a centre speaker and why stereo is not considered to be a film format!

There's a few downsides to this centre speaker solution though. The first and most obvious is the extra cost of another output channel and speaker. The second problem is how to deal with ambiances, sound FX, reverbs and music which are recorded in stereo. If we just output these stereo sounds to the left and right speakers aren't we going to have the same problem we had with the two speaker stereo system? And, if we want to pan a sound to a position other than the centre, left or right, don't we have to rely on a phantom position again? The answer to both these questions is "yes" but there are tools which provide a solution when we have more than two channels to play with. Unfortunately though, you need knowledge, experience and a monitoring environment the same as a cinema, in order to judge when and how much of these tools you need to apply. The final consideration is that with the added cost and mixing complexity of 3.0, we're already over half way towards all the advantages and the worldwide audio standard for cinema, full 5.1 surround.

So what can the indie filmmaker do when screening at a film festival in a cinema? There's only 5 possible options, in order of preference they are:

1. Get the budget together for a proper professional 5.1 surround mix.
2. Get a slightly smaller budget together for a professional 3.0 mix.
3. Buy yourself a 3.0 system, learn to use divergence tools and hope you are applying them appropriately.
4. Carry on working with your stereo system, acknowledging the problem and trying where possible to minimise it's effects.
5. Pretend you never read this post or that I don't know what I'm talking about and completely ignore the whole thing!

I realise that for the vast majority, options 1, 2 and 3 are not viable options but at least after reading this post you are aware of the problem, will consider it's implications and investigate/experiment with ways to minimise it a little, thereby taking option 4 rather than option 5.

Hope this has been useful? Ask away if you have any questions.

G

EDIT: Changed the listing above for Mono and Stereo. DCP only supports 3.0 formats and higher.

 

[PaulGriffith]

I prefer to deliver the final sound in the form of a 24kbps mono MP3 file to be played separately, but simultaneously as the video format (analog 8mm video tape if your curious) and cross my fingers that they sync right.

Seriously though, good post! Thanks for the info.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Number 3 seems doable for the indie guy. Its only one more channel after all.

Multi channel output devices are cheap enough.. Even if you do nothing different then you do now except your dialogue is on a center channel, your results will be much improved over stereo only!

In practical terms, premiere does have a surround mix, but I don't know if it has an explicit "3.0" environment, so maybe you mix 5.0 but ignore rear channels? Thoughts?

 

[Cracker Funk]

Great post. I agree with Wheat -- even on a low budget, option 3 seems do-able, perhaps.

What would we be talking about to make that happen? New software? Or can it reasonably be done in Premiere? And are there specific 3.0 systems I would need, or would there be a way to add on to the stereo monitors I'm already working with?

Thanks!

 

[Mannie Bothans]

On the flip side, what phasing issues (or other audio problems) arise when surround effects are pushed into the stereo field when folding a surround mix down to stereo-- and what is involved in solving such problems? Do you get the same problems when you mix for three and it is played on someone's home stereo equipment without a center channel?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

In practical terms, premiere does have a surround mix, but I don't know if it has an explicit "3.0" environment, so maybe you mix 5.0 but ignore rear channels? Thoughts?

You are correct, 3.0 isn't an official format as such. It's essentially 5.1 format with nothing in the surround or LFE channels, although I believe you can specifically create a 3.0 format Dolby Digital file. How you deal with 3.0 in layback/authoring will depend on your software and who you're working with to create the distribution master. The worst case scenario will just mean creating empty (silent) audio files for the other unused audio channels, so no big problem. The final file format is going to be either individual wav files (for DCP), a polywav (for quicktime movies) or Dolby Digital (for DVD), BluRay supports multiple formats. I'm not mentioning 35mm film format, that's another ball game!

It's worth just making absolutely clear, that at film festivals (or anywhere else), if they have a 5.1 system there is nothing they have to change to make a 3.0 mix playback properly.

What would we be talking about to make that happen? New software? Or can it reasonably be done in Premiere? And are there specific 3.0 systems I would need, or would there be a way to add on to the stereo monitors I'm already working with?

Providing your software can handle 5.0 or 5.1, it will handle 3.0. You would just add another speaker to your stereo monitors. Although home cinema systems often have a slightly different speaker for the centre channel from the left and right speakers, this is not recommended. Just buy another speaker exactly the same as your existing stereo speakers.

The difficulty in most setups is where to put the centre speaker. Ideally you would have an acoustically transparent (AT) projection screen with the speakers behind. Of course, most will have a flat panel computer monitor/TV, in which case the centre speaker should go above (preferable to below) the screen angled down to your editing/mixing position. The speaker should be as precisely as possible exactly between the left and right speakers and preferably all 3 speakers placed on roughly the same horizontal plane.

On the flip side, what phasing issues (or other audio problems) arise when surround effects are pushed into the stereo field when folding a surround mix down to stereo-- and what is involved in solving such problems? Do you get the same problems when you mix for three and it is played on someone's home stereo equipment without a center channel?

Yep, when adding speakers you also add a number of complications and difficulties. This is as true for going from 1 speaker (mono) to 2 speakers (stereo) as it is going from stereo to 3.0 or 3.0 to 5.0 and 5.1. Phase issues is one of these complications and there are 4 dangers:

1. Frequencies interacting (summing and cancelling) from the various speakers with the acoustics in the mixing room/environment. Causing peaks and troughs in the frequency spectrum potentially of 20dB or more each way and resulting in the EQ/balance of your mix being way off.

2. Phase cancellations in the mix itself, again resulting in incorrect levels, EQ and balance.

3. The most difficult one of the 4 to identify and solve, unless you have a full sized theatrical mix environment: Phase summing and cancellations only apparent in the playback venue.

4. Phase issues when folding down to stereo from a higher channel count.

The most common (but not only) cause of phase issues is spreading the same signal over more channels than it was recorded in. For example mono production ambiances, sound FX (or anything) mixed to 2 or more channels or stereo recordings mixed to 3 or more channels. It's also extremely common to have phase issues in stereo recordings themselves. There are various solutions to phase issues depending on what's causing them and what you want to end up with. Arguably the most difficult problem is identifying them in the first place as they may be virtually inaudible in your particular mix room/environment.

The obvious solution to problem 4 is to completely avoid it in the first place by creating separate mixes. For example a 3.0 mix for use at cinema screenings (IE., film festivals) and a separate stereo mix for distribution to consumers (say on the net). As implied in my original post, there's not going to be any great advantage of a 3.0 mix (compared to stereo) on most home systems. This is not true of 5.1 mixes though, which do provide significant advantages to many consumers, compared to stereo. The issue of folding-down and distribution of 5.1 mixes can be a little more complicated and is really deserving of it's own thread. I'm quite happy to go into it, if there's any interest?

There's another important point worth mentioning. Before you start mixing and preferably before you even start editing the sound, you need to contact whichever festival you are entering to find out what playback equipment they have. As I stated in my OP, if the screenings are taking place in a commercial cinema you're going to be good with your 3.0 mix but some smaller festivals in ad-hoc venues (and even very rarely some small remote or niche cinemas) may only have mono/stereo systems, in which case your 3.0 mix may play without the centre channel, IE., without your dialogue! Most small film festivals lack technical expertise, especially when it comes to sound, so even though they my have a surround system it may not be plumbed-in or setup correctly, especially if they're expecting submissions in stereo. The opposite maybe true of some of the big international festivals, where they may expect 5.1 as the standard submission format. In short, it's ALWAYS worth a few minutes on the phone, speaking to someone at the festival who knows about their sound system. You should always ask at least 3 questions: 1. What channel formats do you support? 2. What audio formats do you support? 3. What channel format/audio format are your submissions usually in? This last question is useful for two reasons. For example, if the answer is "almost always stereo", you know that they might have some technical difficulties dealing with your 3.0 mix and you also know that if any technical issues can be solved and if you do a good job with your mix, your film is going to make all your competitor's films sound poor in comparison! Of course if some or many are submitting in 5.1, you now know you're going to have to do something special for your film not to sound inferior. BTW, if you don't fully understand any answers you're given, post them up here!

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

A Practical Experiment

I thought I'd resurrect this thread for two reasons: 1. It's obvious that many/most on indietalk are still, for whatever reason, wedded to stereo and many don't even consider the channel format and 2. I'm not sure my initial explanation is clear enough to be fully appreciated and so I wanted to provide a very simple experiment which you can do yourself, to illustrate the issue.

1. In your NLE or audio software create two mono audio tracks/channels.
2. Pan one channel hard left and the other hard right and make sure the fader is in the exact same position for both channels.
3. Get a mono sound file of some kind of impact; A door closing, a gun shot, a footstep, a snare drum hit, anything will do.
4. Place that sound clip on one of your audio tracks/channels and copy it to the other track/channel. Make sure both of the identical audio files are lined up precisely, ie. They both start at exactly the same point in your timeline.
5. Hit play. As you would expect, you should hear the sound coming out of the centre.

Now for the interesting part of the experiment:

1. Don't change the fader or pan settings, just move one of two audio files so it's roughly 10 or 20 milliseconds later than the other.
2. Hit play again and listen to where the sound appears to be coming from.
3. Repeat the experiment but with the audio file 10 or 20 milliseconds earlier (rather than later) than the other file and listen to the result.
4. Play around with different offsets, try 5 milliseconds or say 50 milliseconds and listen to the result.

This experiment will work on any reasonably positioned stereo system and on headphones but you might have difficulty hearing the effect on laptop speakers. So, what's going on, why does the position change even though the panning and levels stay the same and what ramifications does all this have?

1. If you moved the audio on the channel panned to the left, so it was factionally earlier than the same audio on right channel, your brain will be telling you that the sound's location is to the left. Move the audio file later than the right channel and your brain will tell you the sound's location is to the right. The position changes because these small differences in timing between a sound to the left or right of us is integral to how our brains process sound. In the field of psychoacoustics, the time difference between a sound hitting our left ear and it hitting our right ear is called the Inter-Aural Delay (IAD) and is the main mechanism used by the brain to determine the left/right position of a sound. The experiment we did above is called psychoacoustic panning.

2. The ramifications of all this become apparent in a large space, due to the speed of sound. Sound travels at roughly 1.1 feet per millisecond. So, if we were to sit say 11ft closer to the left speaker than to the right speaker we would get the same effect as the experiment above, where we moved the audio file on the left channel 10 milliseconds earlier than the audio file on the right channel. Obviously 22ft closer to one speaker would be equivalent to our experiment with the audio files offset by 20 milliseconds or roughly 6ft would be equivalent to a 5 millisecond offset. In a normal home environment (and of course with headphones) we are never going to be sitting say 11ft closer to one speaker than the other, so the stereo illusion is not affected too much by where we sit. In a cinema though, where the speakers are tens of feet apart and where we sit tens of feet away from the speakers the timing differences are easily enough to cause the stereo positioning/image to fail completely unless we are sitting reasonably precisely equidistant from the speakers, in the centre of the cinema. In practice what will happen if you sit on the left side of the cinema is that all the sound panned to the centre of your stereo mix will appear to come out of the left speaker only, say all the dialogue, and anything which is actually in stereo, say the music, ambiances or any other stereo sound effects will appear again to be coming out of the left speaker only and will appear to be essentially mono: Anything panned to the right in the stereo sound/music will appear to be very quiet and distant compared to what is in the left or will not be perceived at all. Obviously all the opposite is true if sitting to the right of centre in the cinema. It is for this reason that 2 channel stereo sound has never and can never be used in a cinema.

The fact that people use stereo sound and that small film festivals accept films for exhibition with stereo sound is always down to either the ignorance of the film makers or those running the festivals, or the simple fact they can't afford a real cinema or an appropriate sound system for the location they are using.

G

 

[MileCreations]

So in Premiere, it has a stereo option and a 5.1 option. But a stereo audio file must remain on a stereo track. So If I have a mostly stereo project and export it in a 5.1 file will the stereo fill the centre speaker for the 3.0 or do I have to somehow convert my stereo track into a 5.1 track within Premiere?

I hope this made sense

 

[AudioPostExpert]

No, if you have a stereo file, it will always be a stereo file, regardless of what format the mix is (3.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc). You will have to pan your stereo file within the 3.0/5.1 mix environment just as you have to pan a mono file within the stereo environment.

Left to the default setting in your NLE/DAW, a mono file within a stereo mix will probably be panned centre (unless/until of course you change it). There is no real centre in stereo though (as explained above) you are just panning to a psychoacoustic centre (phantom centre). Likewise a stereo file within a 3.0 mix by default will be panned to the left and right speakers and anything panned to the centre of the stereo file will still be a phantom centre. In practice then, a stereo file within a 3.0/5.1 mix environment is identical to a stereo file within a stereo mix environment (with exactly the same psychoacoustic issues), unless/until you pan it somewhere other than the left and right front speakers.

To end up with a 3.0/5.1 mix you have to start in a 3.0/5.1 mix environment and nothing will be routed to the centre speaker unless you specifically pan something to the centre speaker, rather than pan it to the phantom centre.

Not sure I've explained this clearly, let me know if you don't understand.

G

 

[MileCreations]

To end up with a 3.0/5.1 mix you have to start in a 3.0/5.1 mix environment and nothing will be routed to the centre speaker unless you specifically pan something to the centre speaker, rather than pan it to the phantom centre.

Not sure I've explained this clearly, let me know if you don't understand.

G

I understand what you are saying I'm just not altogether sure how I might accomplish this within Premiere. I've had a fiddle with 5.1 before and my stereo files seemed to hate me (they wouldn't do 5.1 stuff, could pan them to the centre or whatever if that makes sense) though I wasn't completely sure what I was trying to do though after reading all this I have a better understanding and will have another good try tomorrow. If you've used Premiere and farm e any tips please let me know.

Though currently I'm guessing with my system I won't notice a difference. Thanks to you (a few months ago really) a 5.1 computer speaker set is high on my buying list. Any reccomendations within the $100-250 range or there abouts?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Sorry, I've never used Premiere.

To make a stereo file play out of a centre speaker you would have to pan both the right and left side of the stereo channel to the centre speaker, making sure that the channel output is set to 100% centre.

I'm not familiar with consumer 5.1 systems, so I'm afraid I can't recommend anything. Something to be aware of with consumer 5.1 systems is that they are very different to theatrical 5.1 systems. In a consumer 5.1 system you get 5 small (satellite) speakers and a sub woofer. The satellite speakers do not usually produce anything below a crossover point, which on small systems is usually 120Hz and on bigger systems is usually 80Hz. Any sound you route to any satellite speaker which contains frequencies below the crossover point will have those frequencies re-directed to the sub. This is called a bass managed system. Theatrical sound systems are not bass managed, all the speakers can produce the full range of frequencies and the only thing played out of the sub is what is specifically routed there in the LFE channel (the .1 of 5.1). This means there is no way to know on a bass managed system what the balance of the bass is compared to the rest of your mix or what the bass is going to sound like in general when played back on a theatrical system. It's entirely common to be out by a factor of 2-10 times with the bass on a bass managed system compared to a full range theatrical system. There is unfortunately no way around this problem, which is why commercial audio post houses never use bass managed systems to mix films for theatrical release.

BTW, even with a cheap 5.1 system you will almost certainly hear a difference between the phantom centre and sending the same signal to the actual centre speaker. There is a different focus to the sound, in a small room though you are not going to experience very much with regard to the psychoacoustic positioning, although that also depends on the acoustics of your room.

G

 

[dmontgom]

Awesome info

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. As total newb I originally had it in my head that stereo is acceptable. Learning something new everyday, especially when it comes to sound.

(with that being said, I'm a looooong way off from having to worry about any films being in a cinema, but I might as well develop good habits now as I start out)

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I'm a looooong way off from having to worry about any films being in a cinema.

I don't suppose there are many indietalkers working on projects specifically for theatrical distribution and if they were, this thread would be pointless as it's not possible to commercially distribute a theatrical film with stereo sound. My post was more aimed at those indietalkers entering film festivals, where if selected their film will be screened in a cinema.

As an aside, stereo is a dying format for film/program makers: Depending on the country in which you live, many/most TV stations now require 5.1 deliverables and most commercial DVD/BluRay releases are also in 5.1. Dolby Digital (5.1) was the standard for theatrical features for many years and then 7.1 has become the standard over the last few years for the big budget features but the world moves on and now Dolby Atmos is the new king on the block, making 5.1 appear decidedly old fashioned and increasingly viewed as the poor man's cheapest option.

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Has anyone actually tried the experiment described in post #7?

G

 

[stef]

What kind of synching issues are there? Do large cinemas also advance the audio a bit to account for the lack of sync due to speed of sound, or does that fall on the filmmaker?

 

[rayw]

Has anyone actually tried the experiment described in post #7?

I don't think it can be done in my NLE, but I could do it in my audio editor.
However, I understand the principle you described just fine but don't find the effort required to do it worth the outcome when... I already understand the principle you described just fine.


What I do find interesting enough to pursue is trying to figure out how to do what you've also clearly stated: consumer 5.1 can't be done for theatrical 5.1 play (rapidly being rendered moot by the advent of 7.1.)

Something to be aware of with consumer 5.1 systems is that they are very different to theatrical 5.1 systems. In a consumer 5.1 system you get 5 small (satellite) speakers and a sub woofer. The satellite speakers do not usually produce anything below a crossover point, which on small systems is usually 120Hz and on bigger systems is usually 80Hz. Any sound you route to any satellite speaker which contains frequencies below the crossover point will have those frequencies re-directed to the sub. This is called a bass managed system. Theatrical sound systems are not bass managed, all the speakers can produce the full range of frequencies and the only thing played out of the sub is what is specifically routed there in the LFE channel (the .1 of 5.1). This means there is no way to know on a bass managed system what the balance of the bass is compared to the rest of your mix or what the bass is going to sound like in general when played back on a theatrical system. It's entirely common to be out by a factor of 2-10 times with the bass on a bass managed system compared to a full range theatrical system. There is unfortunately no way around this problem, which is why commercial audio post houses never use bass managed systems to mix films for theatrical release.

So, when we do make film festival submissions, AFTER we've asked them what their preferred audio specs are, presumably most of the decent ones WILL be shown + heard in a real live theater, but wait... !
Hat in hand, we've submitted our poor-house consumer grade stereo (maybe on a glorious occasion, our 3.0/3.1!) audio which CAN'T POSSIBLY SOUND WORTHWHILE IN A THEATER ALL STOCKED UP ON NON-BASS MANAGED SYSTEMS.

It's rather frustrating.
IDK what on Earth people have been listening to at film festivals for years.

But this is a few years off for me, so... no big rush. I'll figure out some $50 work around.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

What kind of synching issues are there? Do large cinemas also advance the audio a bit to account for the lack of sync due to speed of sound, or does that fall on the filmmaker?

No, that falls on the filmmaker or hopefully the audio post person/facility hired by the Producer. Large cinemas (and even small ones) are not designed with the lo/no budget filmmaker in mind. They are designed for screening commercial films and commercial films are always mixed in purpose built mixing facilities. These mix facilities are essentially a cinema sized room with the same acoustics and sound systems as a commercial cinema but with fewer seats and a lot of very expensive mixing equipment. There are no sync problems due to the speed of sound because the re-recording engineers are sitting the same distance from the screen as most of the audience will. This is only potentially a problem when sitting a few feet away from the speakers in a small picture editing suite or room not designed for theatrical sound mixing.

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

What I do find interesting enough to pursue is trying to figure out how to do what you've also clearly stated: consumer 5.1 can't be done for theatrical 5.1 play (rapidly being rendered moot by the advent of 7.1.)

Actually, even 7.1 is starting to be rendered moot by Dolby Atmos but 5.1 will still be acceptable for most of the bigger film festivals for some time.

So, when we do make film festival submissions, AFTER we've asked them what their preferred audio specs are, presumably most of the decent ones WILL be shown + heard in a real live theater, but wait... !
Hat in hand, we've submitted our poor-house consumer grade stereo (maybe on a glorious occasion, our 3.0/3.1!) audio which CAN'T POSSIBLY SOUND WORTHWHILE IN A THEATER ALL STOCKED UP ON NON-BASS MANAGED SYSTEMS.

No, that's not what will happen. What will happen in the bigger film festivals is that once your submission copy has been accepted you will be asked to submit your exhibition copy. If your exhibition copy has stereo sound it will be rejected for screening and another film will be chosen to fill your slot!! As stereo is not a film audio format none of the big film festivals accept a stereo sound mix for exhibition.

I usually get several desperate phone calls a year from filmmakers who suddenly realise their stereo mix can't be used for an exhibition copy but haven't budgeted enough (or sometimes anything!) to pay for a compliant multichannel mix. Over the years I've had filmmakers beg, cry, tell me their life story, try to con me, get seriously angry and abusive when the penny finally drops and they realise they can't afford even the cheapest option. After trying just about everything else, one even threatened to have me killed not so long ago if I didn't create a 5.1 mix for her for a fraction of my cost price!!

It's rather frustrating. IDK what on Earth people have been listening to at film festivals for years.

Most of the people at smaller film festivals are filmmakers, the friends and relatives of the filmmakers, those studying film and/or those wanting to get into film and a few others who have a particular interest in indie films and are therefore willing to overlook serious audio shortcomings or who are so wrapped up in other filmmaking technicalities they don't even notice. Relatively few members of the general public go to film festivals with the exception of the more major festivals but the major festivals screen features which have usually had substantial budgets spent on the sound. While they are never up to blockbuster audio standards, they are usually of reasonable professional quality.

But this is a few years off for me, so... no big rush. I'll figure out some $50 work around.

Think about it realistically for a few moments. Over 50% of the sound of your audio system is the effect of the room acoustics and the acoustics of your editing suite/bedroom/garage could not be more different from the acoustics of the average cinema (which is many times larger and professionally designed and treated for it's acoustic response). And that is without taking into account the audio system itself, a $500 (or even $5000) consumer sound system is not even vaguely related to the $100k+ audio systems custom designed for cinema use and film sound. Studio monitors are better than consumer systems but still not in the ball park, so even a well specified commercial music studio cannot get close

I've spent over quarter of a million dollars on the acoustics and equipment for my mix room and while it's great for sound design work, pre-mixing, temp mixes and re-recording for DVD, BluRay and TV broadcast, it's still quite a way away from what is required for theatrical mixing. For the most seriously restricted budgets the best I can offer for theatrical distribution/screening is an audio post service which includes a final mix which I then take to a proper theatrical dub stage for half a day, make careful analysis/notes and try to make the appropriate adjustments to the mix back at my facility. This is the equivalent of the $50 workaround, I've spent several years developing this solution and it's backed up by 20 years of experience in the industry. Believe me, there is no cheaper way of achieving acceptable theatrical audio standards, at least not one I can conceive of and not one which any of my thousands of worldwide competitors have discovered!

G

 

[MileCreations]

I usually get several desperate phone calls a year from filmmakers who suddenly realise their stereo mix can't be used for an exhibition copy but haven't budgeted enough (or sometimes anything!) to pay for a compliant multichannel mix. Over the years I've had filmmakers beg, cry, tell me their life story, try to con me, get seriously angry and abusive when the penny finally drops and they realise they can't afford even the cheapest option. After trying just about everything else, one even threatened to have me killed not so long ago if I didn't create a 5.1 mix for her for a fraction of my cost price!!

So what is the cheapest problem generally speaking? Let's say the film goes for 10 minutes.

 

[wheatgrinder]

ran the experiment...
Reproduced in premiere just as described.

Premiere tip. To be able to move audio files at a resolution greater than 1 video frame:
In the Sequence Panel, the upper right corner has a pull down menu, select "Show Audio Time Units" This will give you VERY HIGH temporal resolution. I did not know this before trying to make this experiment work. Normal setting for temporal resolution on a timeline is 1 video frame. (FYI: this bit of ignorance has been causing me pain for THREE FREAKING YEARS!)