editing A Stereo Warning!!

I thought a post about stereo was called for because there are some serious problems with stereo that many of you are probably unaware of. Some context and explanation: Many of you on this forum will at some stage be looking to enter film festivals. Most film festivals, certainly all the more major ones, take place in commercial cinemas and commercial cinemas virtually always support a range of channel formats:

1.0 Dolby, Mono (C)
2.0 Dolby, Stereo (L, R)
3.0 DCP, Dolby (L, C, R)
4.0 DCP, Dolby Stereo/Surround (L, C, R, S)
5.0 DCP (L, C, R, Ls, Rs)
5.1 DCP, Dolby Digital, DTS, SDDS (L, C, R, Ls, Rs, LFE)
Bigger cinemas (major film festivals), often also support the formats:
6.1 DCP, Dolby EX, DTS ES, SDDS (L, C, R, Ls, Rs, Cs, LFE)
7.1 DCP, Dolby 7.1, SDDS (L, Lc, C, Rc, R, Ls, Rs, LFE)

A couple of questions: 1. Of all these channel formats which do you think works the least well and has never been considered a film format? 2. Of these formats, which do micro/no/low budget indie filmmakers use most commonly? I'll give you a clue, the answer to both questions is the same and is also in the title of this post!

Before anyone starts screaming "BS", I'm not saying stereo is terrible format, it's a very clever and very good format for many audio applications, just not for films destined to be screened in a cinema. The reason for this lies in how stereo manipulates the way we perceive sound (psychoacoustics) to create the illusion of a sound-field. The way we are able to tell where a sound is coming from is quite complex but a simple explanation is: When, for example, a sound occurs to the left of us, the sound waves hit our left ear a tiny fraction of a second before they hit our right ear. Our brain subconsciously works out this arrival time (phase) difference and converts it into the perception of position. So even with our eyes shut, we can tell where a sound is coming from to an accuracy of about half a degree. Of all the formats I listed, Stereo is the odd one out, it's the only one which doesn't have a centre (C) channel. When you pan a sound to the centre in stereo, what you are actually doing is playing the same sound out of both speakers simultaneously. Providing you are sitting equidistant (in the middle) of the two speakers, the sound from the left speaker will hit your left ear at the same time as the sound from the right speaker hits your right ear and as far as the brain is concerned, the only way the same sound can hit both your ears simultaneously is if the sound is coming from directly in front of you (in the centre). This illusionary centre position is called the Phantom Centre.

All very clever and effective but there's an obvious problem; if we are sitting closer to one speaker than the other, won't the sound arrive earlier in the ear closest to that speaker and break or distort the illusion? The answer is "yes" but when we are listening to our home stereo system, TV or computer speakers, the speakers are only a few feet apart and we are only sitting a few feet away, so the stereo image isn't very wide to start with and the distortion of the illusion probably won't be particularly dramatic. However, as the room gets bigger and the speakers are positioned further apart, this positional distortion becomes more pronounced. Take a look at this diagram:

Stereo.png


If we imagine the room in the diagram to be a cinema, the speakers may be 50ft or more apart. For various reasons, including the fact that the characters talking tend to be in the centre of frame, dialogue is almost always panned to the centre. If you were sitting in a cinema in the position of the Blue person (or anywhere on the same vertical plane), the perceived position of the dialogue would line up with the visual position of the character talking. But our Red audience member has a problem, he/she is going to hear the character's dialogue coming from about 20ft to the left of where they expect (the character's on screen position). This will sound quite off-putting and is likely to disengage them from the film, a filmmaking disaster! There are only two solutions: 1. Only allow 10 or so people at a time into the cinema to watch your film and make sure they all sit along that vertical plane in the middle or 2. Add a speaker to the centre of the screen. With a centre speaker, no matter where you are sitting, the sound will always be perceived to be coming from the centre and will always line up with the character's position and audience expectation. Obviously, only the second solution is sensible and that's why all the film channel formats have a centre speaker and why stereo is not considered to be a film format!

There's a few downsides to this centre speaker solution though. The first and most obvious is the extra cost of another output channel and speaker. The second problem is how to deal with ambiances, sound FX, reverbs and music which are recorded in stereo. If we just output these stereo sounds to the left and right speakers aren't we going to have the same problem we had with the two speaker stereo system? And, if we want to pan a sound to a position other than the centre, left or right, don't we have to rely on a phantom position again? The answer to both these questions is "yes" but there are tools which provide a solution when we have more than two channels to play with. Unfortunately though, you need knowledge, experience and a monitoring environment the same as a cinema, in order to judge when and how much of these tools you need to apply. The final consideration is that with the added cost and mixing complexity of 3.0, we're already over half way towards all the advantages and the worldwide audio standard for cinema, full 5.1 surround.

So what can the indie filmmaker do when screening at a film festival in a cinema? There's only 5 possible options, in order of preference they are:

1. Get the budget together for a proper professional 5.1 surround mix.
2. Get a slightly smaller budget together for a professional 3.0 mix.
3. Buy yourself a 3.0 system, learn to use divergence tools and hope you are applying them appropriately.
4. Carry on working with your stereo system, acknowledging the problem and trying where possible to minimise it's effects.
5. Pretend you never read this post or that I don't know what I'm talking about and completely ignore the whole thing!

I realise that for the vast majority, options 1, 2 and 3 are not viable options but at least after reading this post you are aware of the problem, will consider it's implications and investigate/experiment with ways to minimise it a little, thereby taking option 4 rather than option 5.

Hope this has been useful? Ask away if you have any questions.

G

EDIT: Changed the listing above for Mono and Stereo. DCP only supports 3.0 formats and higher.
 
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Its hard not to let this info paralyze me. I have to do the best I can with what I have. I'v keep everything mono SFX, dialogue etc. I only pan music only a little left\right. I occasionally monitor in MONO mode (turn off one speaker for a while ) make sure it still sounds OK. Beyond that, Its sorta out of my hands.

For what its worth, I don't think its that hard to sound better than 80% of indie shorts that Iv seen at festivals. Most just sound awful, so the bar is pretty low ...
 
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So what is the cheapest problem generally speaking? Let's say the film goes for 10 minutes.

That all depends on the film festival. Small regional film festivals may not take place in a cinema and may only have a stereo system, in which case the cheapest option is to make a stereo mix yourself. Cannes film festival on the other hand will require a 5.1 mix and if you don't want to appear incompetent compared to the other filmmakers that 5.1 mix needs to be at or extremely close to professional standards. In which case the cheapest solution is the one outlined in the last paragraph of my last post.

If you're after an actual price, I wouldn't want to post my rates up here publicly, the cost would depend on the film anyway and lastly, I want this thread to be about providing information about theatrical audio formats and requirements rather than about advertising my company. If you have a 10 min film which you want to enter into a more major festival and need professional audio post then PM me and let's keep it private and separate from this thread.

G
 
Its hard not to let this info paralyze me. I have to do the best I can with what I have. I'v keep everything mono SFX, dialogue etc. I only pan music only a little left\right. I occasionally monitor in MONO mode (turn off one speaker for a while ) make sure it still sounds OK. Beyond that, Its sorta out of my hands.

For what its worth, I don't think its that hard to sound better than 80% of indie shorts that Iv seen at festivals. Most just sound awful, so the bar is pretty low ...

Monitoring in mono mode with just one speaker is not really helping or changing anything. I'm not sure that actual mono is even supported by any of the modern delivery formats. Given a single mono audio file, most formats as far as I'm aware will just play it back as one side of a stereo mix with the other side missing. I can't remember ever having to deliver a true single file mono mix though, so I'm not sure what will happen. When you pan your mono SFX and dialogue to the centre, what you are creating is a stereo mix with everything panned to the phantom centre, ie., the centre is created by sending the mono signal to the left and right speakers at exactly the same time and at the same level. This is not a mono mix, it's a stereo mix attempting to create the illusion of mono. So unless you sit in the centre of a cinema, you are essentially going to be recreating the experiment above and none of your "mono" centre panned sound will actually appear to come from the centre but from the speaker on the far left or far right of the screen depending on which one you are sitting closer to. The only way to overcome this is to create a 3.0 (or greater) mix and specifically pan to the centre speaker, rather than to the phantom centre between the left and right speakers.

Your last sentence is really important though! How sound works, how we perceive it and particularly 5.1 and theatrical sound, gets really complicated. It's one of those areas where learning more doesn't seem to teach you anything except how much more complicated it is than you realised! At the end of the day though film festivals are essentially formal or informal competitions, you ideally want to be better than everyone else but at the least you don't want to your film to be worse than everyone else's and as Wheat says, for most of the smaller film festivals the bar is pretty low. Many of the smaller film festivals are not held in cinemas but some ad hoc venue and only have stereo sound systems, so you can completely ignore this thread! I thought it worth posting though because I've seen quite a few caught out when trying to move up to the bigger festivals because they didn't even realise that stereo is flawed and not an acceptable film audio format. But, if all (or at least many) of your competitors are unaware that stereo is not a film audio format then just store this thread away in the back of your mind (for future reference) and don't let it paralyse or even affect you! I'm trying to provide information which one day you might be extremely glad you knew about, I'm NOT trying to paralyse you.

G
 
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Premiere tip. To be able to move audio files at a resolution greater than 1 video frame:
In the Sequence Panel, the upper right corner has a pull down menu, select "Show Audio Time Units" This will give you VERY HIGH temporal resolution. I did not know this before trying to make this experiment work. Normal setting for temporal resolution on a timeline is 1 video frame. (FYI: this bit of ignorance has been causing me pain for THREE FREAKING YEARS!)

Man same for me THANK YOU SO MUCH
 
I understand what you are saying I'm just not altogether sure how I might accomplish this within Premiere. I've had a fiddle with 5.1 before and my stereo files seemed to hate me (they wouldn't do 5.1 stuff, could pan them to the centre or whatever if that makes sense) though I wasn't completely sure what I was trying to do though after reading all this I have a better understanding and will have another good try tomorrow. If you've used Premiere and farm e any tips please let me know.

Though currently I'm guessing with my system I won't notice a difference. Thanks to you (a few months ago really) a 5.1 computer speaker set is high on my buying list. Any reccomendations within the $100-250 range or there abouts?

I would just like to answer my question as I figured out to do it. I haven't actually tested it through 5.1 speakers but it all appears in my settings to be what I was looking for. It appears to be reasonably simply. Greg can you confirm that this looks like the right thing to do?

Step one: When creating your new sequence make sure to change the master audio track to 5.1
new_sequence_5.1.PNG


Step two: Once you import your stereo sound you can edit it in 5.1 it seems. The position of Audio 3 is the default position. Audio 2 is I think where we are meant to position it as per APE's instructions
audio_to_5.1.PNG


If you're after an actual price, I wouldn't want to post my rates up here publicly, the cost would depend on the film anyway and lastly, I want this thread to be about providing information about theatrical audio formats and requirements rather than about advertising my company. If you have a 10 min film which you want to enter into a more major festival and need professional audio post then PM me and let's keep it private and separate from this thread.

G

Fair enough. Currently I do not have any films looking at making it to a major festival so I'll leave it at that for the time being.
 
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Once you import your stereo sound you can edit it in 5.1 it seems. The position of Audio 3 is the default position. Audio 2 is I think where we are meant to position it as per APE's instructions

Looks like you've got it sorted but a couple of things to note:

1. The default position (Audio 3) is a bit ridiculous as you'd never in practice pan anything to that position as it would likely cause all sorts of phase issues.

2. Audio 2 could be correct but it's not clear. Are the two channels (what would be left and right in a stereo mix) still panned left and right, creating a phantom centre or are both the channels of the stereo track panned to the centre speaker? My guess is by default they are still panned left and right creating a phantom centre. Easy enough to find out, if you only have a stereo system hit play, if you can hear the stereo channel then it is panned left and right and the diagram is showing you the phantom centre position, if the channel plays but you hear nothing at all then it is panned to the actual centre speaker, which you don't have and is why you won't hear anything!

I'm assuming the bass clef sign is indicating how much of the signal from the channel is being sent to the LFE channel, the other pot above this with the letter "C" I'm assuming would therefore be indicating how much of the signal is panned to the actual centre speaker. If you create a mono track and pan it to the centre, it will be panned to the phantom centre, "C" is at 0, turning the "C" pot to maximum would send all the signal to the actual centre speaker. Turn the "C" pot to 50% (the halfway position) and 50% of the signal from that channel will be sent to the centre speaker and 25% of the signal will be sent to each of the left and right speakers, giving you 50% actual centre and 50% phantom centre. There are relatively few situations where you would have a setting like this in practice though, I'm just explaining how it works.

G
 
Ok some interesting news. When I put it in the centre like shown in Audio 2 in the above image the audio does come out of my two stereo speakers and going by the two left hand channels as shown on the far right it is coming through those speakers

non_center.PNG


However when I turn the Centre dial around to 100% the channel is only coming through the 5th channel on this bit (far right meter). BUT in both cases I can still hear it coming through my stereo speakers

center.PNG


Also the bass clef is the LFE (not actualy sure what that means though?)

And if you feel this is taking over your thread and no longer as relevant feel free to ask me to take it to PM
 
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How many indie films get a theatrical release? That's why I wouldn't sweat it if your sound doesn't sound top notch at some festival. Do a stereo and a surround sound mix for you DVD mix. Be sure to test your stereo mix through a crappy little TV set with a "Mr Crappy" 2 inch speaker. That means cutting out the low end frequencies otherwise it will distort at even normal listening levels.

That's my 2 cents.
 
However when I turn the Centre dial around to 100% the channel is only coming through the 5th channel on this bit (far right meter). BUT in both cases I can still hear it coming through my stereo speakers

OK, something strange is going on there. With the "C" dial at 0% the two outputs on your master indicate you are getting stereo output to your left and right speakers, as one would expect. At 100% you are getting output to just one channel, supposedly the centre channel but the centre channel should be either channel 2 in Film 5.1 channel format or channel 3 in SMPTE 5.1 channel format. Why you are getting the output to channel 5 with the centre dial and why you can still hear it when you don't have a speaker connected to channel 5 is a mystery to me! Maybe there is some incorrect channel format setting in Premiere and an incorrect routing somewhere as well?

Also the bass clef is the LFE (not actualy sure what that means though?)

LFE, Low Frequency Effects is the .1 of the 5.1 mix. This LFE channel is routed solely to the sub woofer, you would not send anything to the LFE channel which contains any frequencies above 120Hz. In consumer 5.1 systems the LFE channel is effectively pointless but in theatrical 5.1 systems nothing gets routed to the sub except what is on the LFE channel.

Do a stereo and a surround sound mix for you DVD mix. Be sure to test your stereo mix through a crappy little TV set with a "Mr Crappy" 2 inch speaker. That means cutting out the low end frequencies otherwise it will distort at even normal listening levels.

Why butcher your stereo mix so it sounds tinny and pathetic on headphones or anything better than a "Mr Crappy" 2" speaker when a little bit of intelligent mixing will avoid distortion? And, why create a stereo and a surround mix on a DVD?

G
 
OK, something strange is going on there. With the "C" dial at 0% the two outputs on your master indicate you are getting stereo output to your left and right speakers, as one would expect. At 100% you are getting output to just one channel, supposedly the centre channel but the centre channel should be either channel 2 in Film 5.1 channel format or channel 3 in SMPTE 5.1 channel format. Why you are getting the output to channel 5 with the centre dial and why you can still hear it when you don't have a speaker connected to channel 5 is a mystery to me! Maybe there is some incorrect channel format setting in Premiere and an incorrect routing somewhere as well?

G

Perhaps Premiere is just weird like that and is not exactly industry standard? I'm going to look into the more specific about each channel when I get the chance, as well as trying it on a 5.1 system to see if it just comes through the center channel (when at 100)

Thanks for your help so far.

-Brendan
 
How many indie films get a theatrical release? That's why I wouldn't sweat it if your sound doesn't sound top notch at some festival. Do a stereo and a surround sound mix for you DVD mix.
When I'm making something I know will never get farther than the computer - I agree. I'm not sweating it. L+R speakers: check, good, done.

However, when the day comes I feel confident enough to seriously consider entering a film festival I'd only realistically consider entering in film festivals that take place in real theaters and NOT in some ad hoc "roll-up silver widescreen + projector + speakers" film festival venue.
So, in that case I am QUITE interested in learning how to achieve a functional audio mix. A top notch audio mix is only as ambitious as funds allow.
Making a feature film with my 1080p Flip and a GoPro vs. Canon 5D. Yeah. I ain't there, yet. But I want to have the principles well under my belt.


Now, making a surround sound mix for a DVD mix sounds 100% reasonable, although I might puss-out and stick with 3.0/3.1 just to de-complicate my life + product.
 
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Now, making a surround sound mix for a DVD mix sounds 100% reasonable, although I might puss-out and stick with 3.0/3.1 just to de-complicate my life + product.

Ray, take my advice and stick to 3.0, avoid the point 1 (.1)! There is simply no way to get the point 1 in 3.1 (or 5.1) even close to being right on a bass managed system. In a bass managed system the sub woofer should be calibrated to output the bass frequencies for the satellite speakers (the 3 speakers in 3.1 or the 5 in 5.1), at the same level that the satellite speakers would output if they were full range, creating the illusion of full range speakers. In a theatrical system the 5 speakers can all output their own balanced bass frequencies and don't need a sub woofer to fulfil that role for them. The sub woofers in a theatrical system are designed to pump out huge quantities of very low frequency (usually thousands of watts) to create a physical sensation of the sound waves impacting on the audience's bodies (rather than a purely aural sensation), to heighten the experience of vehicle crashes, explosions, cannon fire, earthquakes, etc. Obviously with a consumer bass managed system the sub woofer is either calibrated to fulfil the bass management of the satellite speakers or is calibrated to try and fulfil the role of the theatrical sub woofer but obviously the sub woofer in a bass managed system can't have two very different calibrations at the same time. So either the levels of the low frequencies which your satellite speakers should be producing are going to be completely wrong or the level of the output from the LFE (.1) channel is going to be completely wrong.

Even forgetting about this serious LFE problem, the translation of a mix from 3 consumer speakers in a small room to the 3 massive speakers in a large acoustically treated room is going to be near impossible to judge so don't make the translation even worse by complicating the situation with rear speakers. The only downside to this approach is that if all of the other films being screened around your film have half decent 5.1 mixes, your film is going to sound pretty much identical to a stereo mix compared to a surround mix. Better that though than a screwed up 5.1 mix in my opinion!

G
 
Understood & appreciated.
Thank you.

Between you and Alcove I'm slowly developing a better understanding of WHY audio should be submitted to distributors with all the dialog on one track, special effects on a second track, music on a third track, etc.
So that they can have a mixer output these distinct entities into distinct speakers and adjust for timing for physical distance to the statistical majority of audiences in metered-out, acoustically designed theater spaces, right?

It becomes a big ol' math equation at some point.
Rate x Time = Distance.
Distance / Rate = Time.
If the theater full range speakers are placed at an industry/regionally standardized distance from the bulk of the audience and the sound travels at a fixed rate of 343.2 metres per second then the timing for each acoustic element can be adjusted to arrive at the audience majority in sync.
Something basically like that?
 
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Impressive logic ray but unfortunately completely wrong! :)

There are no timing variations or adjustments made to a theatrical mix once it's been completed. Commercial theatrical dub stages are usually the same size as a mid sized cinema and the mix position is usually two thirds of the way to the back of the auditorium. This provides a decent median which works pretty well in the vast majority of cinemas. Don't forget, in a large cinema the audience could experience as much as a 2 frame shift in sync depending on whether they are sitting at the back or front of the cinema, nothing can be done about this! As well as the frequency response of relatively small speakers in a relatively small room compared to a full theatrical audio system there is the additional timing issue not just of audio sync to picture but also due to the fact that the rear speakers could be 80 or so feet away from the front speakers and the front left and right speakers maybe 50 feet apart. This obviously can't be emulated in a small room and often significantly affects how you process audio elements, position and pan them around and of course dictates the use of delay based effects and reverbs.

The reason for the usually quite complex audio delivery requirements is all about business, rather than audience aesthetics. Some distributors will want all the dialogue on one set of 6 tracks (the DIA or DX Stem), all the SFX on another set of 6 tracks (the SFX Stem), a music stem, another set of 6 tracks containing a mix of everything except the dialogue (an M&E, "Music and Effects" mix) and finally another set of tracks containing the complete mix. These different stems and mixes may have to be supplied in stereo as well. None of this is for timing but for syndication, re-versioning, licensing, etc. For example the M&E mix is used to create a foreign language dub, where a just the foreign dialogue needs to be added to an otherwise complete mix, the dialogue stem is required to provide a guide for a foreign language dub. This dramatically reduces the time/cost to a broadcaster who for example who wants to buy a license to broadcast the film in say Germany, who would otherwise have to either subtitle the film or spend a small fortune completely recreating the sound mix from scratch. The individual stems might be required to create a new mix compliant with the TV broadcast regulations in any country/broadcaster who licenses the rights to broadcast. The stereo stems are required for broadcasters who only broadcast in stereo and have to create a mix compliant with stereo broadcast regulations and so on and so forth. In essence, the audio deliverables are designed to allow the relatively easy creation of new mixes compliant with the desires/regulations of any distributor/broadcaster pretty much anywhere in the world with whom the original distributor/rights holder might want to make a licensing or sub-licensing deal with. Without these audio deliverables the rights holders are going to loose access to the potentially very highly profitable worldwide TV syndication market. A clever TV syndication pricing strategy, well executed over the course of several years can bump up a big film's revenue by as much as $200m in rare cases and obviously that's in addition to the original box office and DVD/BluRay sales! TV syndication is BIG business, worth tens of billions of dollars worldwide a year and the audio deliverables are an essential ingredient, hence such strict policies and often extremely complex audio delivery requirements, even if the distributor has no immediate plans for licensing/TV syndication.

A bit long winded and off topic but I know you're interested in the economic side of how the industry works.

G
 
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Im trying to follow some of this advice.

Im adding a center channel to my setup, the center will be the same full range speakers as my Left and Right setup. That gets me 3.0 setup. Iv very excited, I think "The Hot Rod" will be at least 3.0 release..

Should I try and add a sub for 3.1 or would I be better just ignoring LFE at this short\indie level? My gut says that calibration of a sub adds a lot of complexity for little real return. Thoughts?
 
Im trying to follow some of this advice.

Im adding a center channel to my setup, the center will be the same full range speakers as my Left and Right setup. That gets me 3.0 setup. Iv very excited, I think "The Hot Rod" will be at least 3.0 release..

Should I try and add a sub for 3.1 or would I be better just ignoring LFE at this short\indie level? My gut says that calibration of a sub adds a lot of complexity for little real return. Thoughts?

You probably don't have full range speakers in which case it's maybe worth having a sub to extend your main speakers to full range by creating a bass managed system but still just creating 3.0 mixes. A problem with all small rooms is room modes, resonant frequencies of the room due to the distance between the walls being related to the wavelength of certain sound frequencies. Depending on where you sit in the room that will either sum and could effectively increase the energy of that frequency by as much as 10 times or it could cancel in which case that frequency could be reduced by a factor of 10. In a small room these massive variations in frequency response are unavoidable and in the low frequency room modes are virtually untreatable. Cinemas and theatrical dub stages avoid this problem to a great extent by being so large that these problem bass room modes are below the threshold of human hearing (~20Hz). A 20Hz signal has a wavelength of about 57ft, so providing your room is longer than 57ft and wider than 57ft you should avoid many of the most serious problems and those which remain should be much easier to treat.

Getting even vaguely representative bass response is a very tricky and expensive business and getting it to theatrical specifications is nigh on impossible in a small room regardless of how much money you've got to throw at the problem. At a guess I would say I've spent about $25k dealing with bass issues and my studio is still only vaguely ball park and is one of the reasons I would need to carefully check any mix I create which is destined for theatrical screening in a certified theatrical dub stage. So, unless like me it's your profession, it's really not worth worrying about. Utimately you just have to accept that your mixes are going to be highly inaccurate in the lower frequencies and it's really not worth compounding the problem by adding the LFE (.1) channel to the equation. Just get a sub to give your main speakers some sort of low frequency response and leave it at that is my advice!

G
 
Step one: When creating your new sequence make sure to change the master audio track to 5.1
Alright, MC! You've inspired me to go poking around my (considerable) step-down version of Adobe Premiere, Elements 10.
Although I don't have any fancy selection menu I think I can just click and dial what I want - FOR HOME PLAY! :lol:


Using your screen capture image below...

Step two: Once you import your stereo sound you can edit it in 5.1 it seems. The position of Audio 3 is the default position. Audio 2 is I think where we are meant to position it as per APE's instructions
audio_to_5.1.PNG


... I've just now figured out what I'll need to do to mix my audio for 2.0, 3.0, and/or 5.0!
Maybe.
Likely.

20130314AdobePremiereElements10AudioMixer_zps6a0431a1.png


1 - Goto menu bar and select "Window."
2 - Select "Audio Mixer", window pops up.
3 - Click "Smart Mixer" caret,
A - ensure first three tracks are "Foreground."
B - select last two tracks as "Background."
C - Turn balance dials full left, center, right, left, and right.​
Audio should come out of a home 5.0 speaker system according to the little diagram I made.

Lord only knows how it will sound coming out of a theatrical 5.0 speaker system. :scared:

APE is assured it will more than likely sound like sh!te.
Many IT-ers with film festival experiences report that a input described like this turns out good enuf to just fine.

I strongly suspect it's a quality control issue.
A - APE is in the position of NEEDING to be able to ENSURE a paying customer's pro-mixed audio will play back the first and every time, until the playback environment changes, (lest he get a bad reputation in the biz.)
B - Whereas, many of us are willing to keep pounding on a problem until we get it right for the festival venue will accept the audio as "good enuf."​

I don't think any of us regulars here actually believe our DIY audio mix features are ever going to be picked up for distribution by Lionsgate, Magnolia, Anchor Bay, IFC, or Sony Classic Pictures.
They'll assuredly mix their own on their own dime, or a cut outta your distro deal. Bastards.
And I'm pretty sure Troma would accept 2.0 Lt/Rt. :lol:
 
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I strongly suspect it's a quality control issue.
A - APE is in the position of NEEDING to be able to ENSURE a paying customer's pro-mixed audio will play back the first and every time, until the playback environment changes, (lest he get a bad reputation in the biz.)
B - Whereas, many of us are willing to keep pounding on a problem until we get it right for the festival venue will accept the audio as "good enuf."​

A - No Ray, I do not have the facilities (a >18,000ft³ mix room). I offer all theatrical audio post services including pre-mixing and recommend final mixing at a full theatrical dub stage. I will do final theatrical mix providing there is a budget to at least check the mix in a full dubbing theatre and providing the filmmakers understand the risk involved in this route. I will still reluctantly do a final theatrical mix even without this check but only with the full understanding (in writing) that I cannot guarantee accurate theatrical playback! The vast majority of the mixing I do these days is for HDTV broadcast, plus a bit of re-versioning for DVD/BluRay and even the odd bit of music mastering.

B - There are a great many more things which can go wrong with audio for film festivals, simply because they are often dealing with non-standard theatrical distribution formats and the smaller fests don't usually employ the personnel or equipment which enables decent audio playback. This problem is potentially compounded by using multichannel formats the smaller festivals may not be familiar with. In other words, using 5.1 for example you might have to "pound" for a very long time! My advice here and on related threads is aimed at minimising the risk of being rejected due to some technical audio problem when you might in fact have a pretty decent film otherwise.

Many IT-ers with film festival experiences report that a input described like this turns out good enuf to just fine.

I think this statement is what is causing a lot of the disagreement. Having taught for several years and hundreds of students from their first week through to their final year of degree studies and having spent many years in the profession having to comply with audience expectation and the commercial requirements of distributors and broadcasters, I believe I have a very highly developed concept of the various levels of audio achievement, from absolute beginner through to the pretty high end. To be in agreement with some IT-ers, I would have to accept the existence of a new category of "good enuf" which is beyond the boundaries of my experience (absolute audio beginner to high end pro).

G
 
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I offer all theatrical audio post services including pre-mixing and recommend final mixing at a full theatrical dub stage. I will do final theatrical mix providing there is a budget to at least check the mix in a full dubbing theatre and providing the filmmakers understand the risk involved in this route.
What is done in pre-mixing?
Edit selection, clean up, tonal adjustments, etc.?


My advice here and on related threads is aimed at minimising the risk of being rejected due to some technical audio problem when you might in fact have a pretty decent film otherwise.
Yeah, that'd be pretty annoying. :grrr:

Originally Posted by rayw
Many IT-ers with film festival experiences report that a input described like this turns out good enuf to just fine.
I think this statement is what is causing a lot of the disagreement. Having taught for several years and hundreds of students from their first week through to their final year of degree studies and having spent many years in the profession having to comply with audience expectation and the commercial requirements of distributors and broadcasters, I believe I have a very highly developed concept of the various levels of audio achievement, from absolute beginner through to the pretty high end. To be in agreement with some IT-ers, I would have to accept the existence of a new category of "good enuf" which is beyond the boundaries of my experience (absolute audio beginner to high end pro).
In 'Kung Fu Panda' Shifu assures Po that Kung Fu has no "level zero" only to be proven otherwise.

kung.fu.panda..27.jpg


Code:
			PO
		How did I do?
		
			SHIFU
		There is now a level Zero.

I guess we now know where the skill level is around here. ;)

R
 
What is done in pre-mixing? Edit selection, clean up, tonal adjustments, etc.?

Pre-mixing is the mixing of all the individual stems of the final mix. The dialogue stem is leveled, lightly cleaned and some tonal adjustments made to equalise the different bits of dialogue and ADR with each other. Simpler work is usually done on the SFX, Foley, Atmos and the music stem is mixed. In the final mix the stems are balanced against one another, global reverb applied and any fine tuning of the dialogue. These days it's extremely uncommon to record the stems down and for the final mix to take place just with audio tracks of the stems, it's a little more complicated than that because you're effectively handing over virtual stems. This makes it relatively easy to swap something out in the dub stage if it isn't working for the Director or Producer.

G
 
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