editing 100% ADR -- stupid idea, or pure genius?

[Cracker Funk]

The thought occurred to me that shooting a feature film without production sound, and using 100% ADR, might actually end up being less expensive. And, so long as I hire a good sound designer and foley artist, shouldn't it sound better, as well? Also, I could shoot wherever I want, without worry of sound (and it's worth noting that the next feature is a Road Trip movie, so we'll be spending a great deal of time in cars and on or near freeways).

Any potential pitfalls or downsides to doing it this way?

Thanks.

 

[PaulGriffith]

Tron 2 was done like that because their light up costumes had a high pitch whine to them.

Downsides, you don't get the performance of the actor in the element. Not every actor is good at ADR. Lots of time in post.

Positives, like you said, you can shoot anywhere and often faster.

 

[cameronchapman]

You might consider giving your actors an ADR test when you're casting. Record their first audition, and then have them try ADR for it at their second audition.

You could also try it the way that Robert Rodriguez did for El Mariachi, and have them immediately do their ADR as soon as you stop filming each scene. Of course, that would mean either having to do a lot of back-and-forth to a studio or using some kind of portable sound booth, which could be problematic.

 

[SinEater]

This is something I'd never do, especially with inexperienced actors. ADR is very hard to match to the performance on set, and rarely sounds as good. Sure, it will be clean audio, but it's recorded in a cold and calculated way. Rarely do actors excel in such environments. Also, you'd spend so much time in post doing ADR it'd be hard to believe you couldn't hire a production sound guy for the same price.

 

[Ernest Worthing]

I agree with all of the above. It has been done plenty of times but if possible, it is always recommended to capture sound on set.

 

[directorik]

You forgot the actors. Perhaps a good sound designer is cheaper than a
good boom op but what about the actors? I suppose you are considering
actors who will be donating their time.
How many days will the shoot take?
How many days will the actors need to return to record all the dialogue?
will they need to donate twice the amount of days? Half again as much?
If you are paying the actors is is cheaper for you to bring them back
for several days than it will be to record clean audio tracks during the
shoot?

I have worked with actors who are great at ADR and I have worked with
wonderful actors who just can't get the hang of it. But perhaps, due to
the nature of the shoot, you may need to rerecord a lot of the dialogue
anyway.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

I have been very lucky with production sound. Usually only have to ADR about 20% of the movie. I have worked with a producer who goes into a film expecting to have to ADR 80% of it.

 

[CamVader]

You have to do sound on set to loop ADR anyway, so the most efficient way would be to go for clean audio takes on set and ADR only what is necessary, which is the standard for a reason.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

You have to do sound on set to loop ADR anyway, so the most efficient way would be to go for clean audio takes on set and ADR only what is necessary, which is the standard for a reason.

First, I agree with you 100%, but he'll have the camera audio as a reference track to do the ADR. I still wouldn't do it, that's just not the reason.

 

[CamVader]

First, I agree with you 100%, but he'll have the camera audio as a reference track to do the ADR. I still wouldn't do it, that's just not the reason.

I agree with you more.

Noisy locations would probably still require a boomed mic even for just for ADR purposes. I don't know, it just sounds problematic for indie film resources when the budget is likely strained by the time you get to post with none of the film being usable until the giant ADR project is completed.

I'd give it a test spin on a short or two just to see what the realities are if I was going to try it, though.

 

[Cracker Funk]

To answer a couple questions -- though I desire to pay SAG wages, the reality is that I will probably only be able to afford to pay the cast $100/day. Which, by the way, is what I plan to pay everyone (myself included) who will work at that rate. I'm assuming I won't be able to hire a good boom-op and audio recordist for that amount, so I'm willing to pay the full, normal rate for that position (as well as the full, normal rate for a solid DP).

I did some ADR for "Antihero". In one respect, it sounds bad, but that's because I'm not anything remotely resembling a sound designer. From the perspective of looking at the actors' ADR performances, I don't know if I just got lucky, but we actually found it quite easy to match the performance.

However, the part that we found easy was the timing of the dialogue. Yet, there were often tiny little differences in inflection, tone of voice, that took away from the "freshness" of the performance, which is what I think you were pointing out, Paul? I think that's probably the biggest possible detriment, and maybe the reason so many of you have mentioned that there is a reason why getting clean production audio is the standard.

If I were to do this, I would connect a shotgun to the camera, just to have a reference track. However, I think the points you all make are probably a pretty strong indication that I shouldn't do this.

Thanks for the input, everybody!

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Having recorded all my VOs in a sound recording studio and shot dialogue on location. studio sound is perfect and location sound has its issues with stray background noise. But, you can lose great sounds of an actor in the heat of a moment physically acting out the scene. Like, I only have one take of a drunken Colonel on her back after a cyborg kicked her butt and dumps a canteen of booze all over her. The sounds she makes whimpering with fear of the cyborg and laping up the booze was priceless and it had to get ruined by a passing siren. Now, I have to work in lesser ambience sound to replace what could have been great sound effects from a good acting performance.

I see pros and cons on both sides from my experience.

 

[Theodebernacius]

Examples of 100% ADRed movies: Fellini's. Apparently oftentimes at the shooting stage his scripts weren't finished. He would have his actors talk rubbish and then write the final dialogues during ADR, which apparently caused horrible discrepancies between lip movements and words. Or so I was told. I never noticed.

I watched "Swimming with sharks", wasn't shocked by anything dialogue-wise. Then listened to George Huang's commentary. Towards the end he cringes because he ADRed a bit of Kevin Spacey's dialogue. It was too politically incorrect (something about women getting promotion through sex). He had to tone it down causing what was for him an egregious lip motion mismatch, which I would never have noticed.

Conclusion: improve your dialogues at ADR time.

 

[directorik]

To answer a couple questions -- though I desire to pay SAG wages, the reality is that I will probably only be able to afford to pay the cast $100/day.

So now you have to pay each actor $100/day to come back an rerecord.
Some may be able to get all their dialogue in two days - some might take
four. Is that something that will be less expensive than hiring a sound
recordist for the shoot?

If I were to do this, I would connect a shotgun to the camera, just to have a reference track. However, I think the points you all make are probably a pretty strong indication that I shouldn't do this.

Recording directly to a DSLR is not going to cut it except for a guide track.
Recording to a separate audio devise is they cheapest way to go. Having
good, clean production tracks is in most cases quite a bit cheaper than
doing everything in post.

 

[Cracker Funk]

So now you have to pay each actor $100/day to come back an rerecord.
Some may be able to get all their dialogue in two days - some might take
four. Is that something that will be less expensive than hiring a sound
recordist for the shoot?


Recording directly to a DSLR is not going to cut it except for a guide track.
Recording to a separate audio devise is they cheapest way to go. Having
good, clean production tracks is in most cases quite a bit cheaper than
doing everything in post.

Cool. Thanks for the advice. Was just a random thought that popped into my head, this afternoon. Sounds like it's probably more wise to stick with the traditional, time-tested method.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Some observations from Uncle Bob:

As was mentioned, you still need to capture relatively clean production sound so you can match ADR to production sound.

ADRed dialog, for the most part, lacks the passionate performance of production dialog, even with talented actors.

ADR can take a loooooooooooooooooong time if the actors are unfamiliar/inexperienced with the process. Even some good actors really suck at doing ADR. I've spent two hours getting three lines.

An experienced dialog editor can cut around noise and edit together great sounding dialog tracks from the unused alternate takes. S/he has the proper tools and the experience to get it done quickly.

A few expenses you may not have thought about... Besides their daily pay you will also be expected to supply transportation to and from the studio, and you'll need a craft table. Really talented actors may have moved on to other projects and be out of town, so you'll have to do remote ADR sessions at other studios which can be very expensive.



This is why I preach about capturing solid production sound. In the long run it is actually more cost effective and artistically a better project.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Some observations from Uncle Bob:

As was mentioned, you still need to capture relatively clean production sound so you can match ADR to production sound.

ADRed dialog, for the most part, lacks the passionate performance of production dialog, even with talented actors.

ADR can take a loooooooooooooooooong time if the actors are unfamiliar/inexperienced with the process. Even some good actors really suck at doing ADR. I've spent two hours getting three lines.

An experienced dialog editor can cut around noise and edit together great sounding dialog tracks from the unused alternate takes. S/he has the proper tools and the experience to get it done quickly.

A few expenses you may not have thought about... Besides their daily pay you will also be expected to supply transportation to and from the studio, and you'll need a craft table. Really talented actors may have moved on to other projects and be out of town, so you'll have to do remote ADR sessions at other studios which can be very expensive.



This is why I preach about capturing solid production sound. In the long run it is actually more cost effective and artistically a better project.

Thanks. And while I've got you online, please allow me to ask a kind-of related follow-up question.

So, I've gotten some good info on what I should expect to pay to get good sound for production (with a skeleton crew). For a standard Road Trip movie, with a fairly brief action-y climactic finale, is there a standard amount I should expect to pay a good, qualified sound designer? Or, does it vary from person to person? This is all assuming that I have all of my ducks in a row, and I've delivered everything, properly organized, in the manner that the sound designer asked to receive things.

 

[TheArtist]

Rodriguez did it as mentionned before and his movie ended up in Hollywood.

He did for practical purposes : he couldn't record sound while shooting because his recorder would show up on screen (that's what low budget is all about).

As long I don't have a good boom setup, I'd stick with ADR too. And I'd record it right after the shooting not months after (again, like Rodriguez).

 

[cameronchapman]

To answer a couple questions -- though I desire to pay SAG wages, the reality is that I will probably only be able to afford to pay the cast $100/day. Which, by the way, is what I plan to pay everyone (myself included) who will work at that rate. I'm assuming I won't be able to hire a good boom-op and audio recordist for that amount, so I'm willing to pay the full, normal rate for that position (as well as the full, normal rate for a solid DP).

SAG minimum for the ultra-low-budget (under $200k) agreement is $100/day, so you'd actually be set there.

 

[Alcove Audio]

So, I've gotten some good info on what I should expect to pay to get good sound for production (with a skeleton crew). For a standard Road Trip movie, with a fairly brief action-y climactic finale, is there a standard amount I should expect to pay a good, qualified sound designer? Or, does it vary from person to person? This is all assuming that I have all of my ducks in a row, and I've delivered everything, properly organized, in the manner that the sound designer asked to receive things.

It will vary from person to person. You always have to remember that you get what you pay for.

Just so you know... It is a fairly standard practice to negotiate a flat fee for audio post services. However, there are some things that most of us exempt from the flat fee, ADR being one of them. Expendables for creating sound FX and Foley are also exempt. The mix is a separate expense if you want to use a certified Dolby or THX mix facility.

"One-man-band" audio post houses like me generally take a long time to get the project done. It's not that we're slow or lazy, there's just a hell of a lot of work for one person to do. I've put in as little as 250 hours on a feature (what I classify as "fix and mix") to over 1,000 hours. 1,000hrs / 50hrs week = 20 weeks (over 4 1/2 months).

With the bigger audio post houses you'll have one crew doing dialog editing and ADR, another doing Foley, and a third doing sound FX, so all three aspects of audio post are being worked on simultaneously. It gets done faster, but it's generally more expensive.

Give me a shout when you're in preproduction.