Why many filmmakers don't want to pay for composers work? And more questions.

Hi.
Yes, i'm a composer, but now i don't provide myself and want to discuss these problem.
I'm from Russia and don't know where is the best resource to find a composer job. So i read classifieds in social networks, digital boards and more.
And almoust everywhere i see one problem. Filmmaker want a score just for a credit line :)

But why?

I think, that most of composers, who haunting a film to score in the internet, is crafters. They knew basic rules, knew composition, scary names like staccato, portamento and more :) But tey don't have any normal sampler or synthesizer to produce real (not synthetic samples) sound.

Maybe directors always think about this crafters, when thinking about composers?
What's the point?

And now about my place in these post. I'm not a sample crafter allready. But don't have a live orchestra tracks yet, because it's expensive. I stuck between crafters and profi for many reasons. And one of them - is unwillingness of directors to pay :)

This is first question i want to discuss.

P.S.
This is track for the next question :) http://fs06n4.sendspace.com/dl/b74a646dc96114320b96cd0fe677c16e/4ab8f8e448bdaf2d/867mbe/150.mp3
 
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Welcome to indietalk, Cwood.

A director who is making a very low budget film by spending their
own money rarely pays anyone. They look for people in all
positions who want the experience. It’s not the directors
unwillingness to pay, it’s that th director doesn’t have the
money to pay.

A producer who is paying the cast and crew wants to hire people
with experience.

Since you want to be paid for your work then you need to keep
looking. Don’t apply for the “credit only” jobs and only apply
for the paying jobs.
 
But those directors (i saw plenty of examples) pays to colorists, workers and other crew :) I can't understand it... All of the crew payable, except composers.

Situiation with ultralowbudget projects is crearly understanding.
But i talking about projects, which have a budget for crew.
 
I don't believe anyone can speak of other directors. Only the director
who is paying everyone else and not the composer can answer.

Perhaps the reason is so many composers are willing to work for credit
only. This may not be entirely the fault of the director. When a lot of
composers are willing to work for free that sets a standard.

Why do you think so many composers are willing to accept a non
paying job when all other crew are being paid?
 
I'd be happy to pay for a good composer if I could afford it.
For a lot of indie filmmakers the prospect of having music rights hanging over you is a bit daunting. I think like with anything, people will try to get things for free if they can.
 
I don't believe anyone can speak of other directors. Only the director
who is paying everyone else and not the composer can answer.

Perhaps the reason is so many composers are willing to work for credit
only. This may not be entirely the fault of the director. When a lot of
composers are willing to work for free that sets a standard.

Why do you think so many composers are willing to accept a non
paying job when all other crew are being paid?

Indeed, I had little trouble finding a composer to do my score for free. Finding a sound recordist with their own gear for free.. almost impossible. Finding a composer for free.. took a week. I even got a real string trio (violin, cello, viola) for free. I think from a director's perspective, an awesome score would be great, but an "ok" score for free will do. Just having ANY original score that doesn't totally suck is pretty major production value in the ultra low budget world, so we "settle".
 
One of the problems with budgeted indie projects is that the director and producer fail to do proper pre-production and budgeting, so they end up using all of their funds for the shoot and have nothing left for post; or fail to plan for post at the outset.

Add to that - There are many people willing to work for free to get their foot in the door, and a few of them are very talented, quite a few are moderately talented. Unfortunately, there are many more people wanting to get into their particular craft than there are paying jobs, so even the most talented work for nothing or next to nothing just to build their reel and gain more experience. So the editing and composing aspect of post can be done for almost nothing.

I must get a dozen emails each week asking me to "save" the audio of their film and yet not offer me anything other than a credit. My biggest gripe about that is - at least on the low/no/micro budget indie world - that audio post is the only craft that requires a specially built room or rooms in order to do the job properly. I am still at the very low end of the totem pole when it comes to audio post facilities, and my rooms cost over $25k to build, not to mention all of the outboard gear (Pro Tools, mics, mic pres, speakers, video monitoring, etc.) and software (Pro Tools, noise reduction, IR reverbs, Vocalign, etc.) that are required to do the job professionally. Most visual editors need only a powerful computer, the NLE and a nice monitor. Most composers have a passable computer, a music DAW and a huge sound library. So, you see, I have my own gripe; my particular craft requires a huge financial outlay just to get started.
 
Thank you all, you gave me a fresh look on this problem.
The most interesting was "they end up using all of their funds for the shoot and have nothing left for post". Never thought about.

If someone wishes to tell something more - do it!
 
Heh. Found this timely (and not at all uncommon)
 

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There are many people wanting to become professional composers for film. A few may actually be good ... many are not. Most will offer their work for free so that they have something to use as examples of their work when a paying job is available. That's why there are so many offers for free music. Are you prepared right now to provide a demo clip of your work that will justify why you are worth paying for?

There are plenty of paying jobs for composers. If you are not finding them, it is because you are not looking in the right places. Do some internet research on how to become a professional (paid) composer. Posting ads on chat boards will certainly get you feedback, but probably not paying jobs.
 
Are you prepared right now to provide a demo clip of your work that will justify why you are worth paying for?
I prepared, both audio and video, but this theme not about me :)

Did you mean exactly video with mysic? But even "monster" studios don't make this kind of promo. Look www.dynamedion.com - only mp3.
O! Another question. Did you (i mean directors) choose a composer with good music or with big list of scored film? What's the major criteria?


Heh. Found this timely (and not at all uncommon)
:D Homemaded copypast sample work by crafter. Not a surpise, that he would work "for food" :)
 
O! Another question. Did you (i mean directors) choose a composer with good music or with big list of scored film? What's the major criteria?
I don't usually have the time to listen to several pieces from
dozens of different composers. So for me, I choose a composer
based on their credits.

But most of the time I use a composer who is known to me
personally or recommended by another director I know and trust.
It's very rare that I will listen to dozens of demo tapes. As I said,
I don't have the time.
 
:D Homemaded copypast sample work by crafter. Not a surpise, that he would work "for food" :)

Sure - but just one of tens of thousands doing the same. Some will be better than others, but there sure ain't a shortage of talented musicians who will not only work for nothing but will also sign away all their creative rights related to their music.

Why many filmmakers don't want to pay for composers work?

Change the question around, dude.

What lo-budget filmmaker in their right mind would pay for something, when there are people literally begging to do it for nothing?

I ain't sayin' it's right - just sayin' that's the way it is.

If there were as many people fightin' to make it as a colorist, there would be a similar situation.
 
Just like filmmakers will "work for free" as interns or PAs, composers will work for free. Isn't the answer obvious? For experience/exposure. There will always be people willing to work for free for experience or exposure, and people willing to hire them.
 
I hope, that you understand my questions exact like a questions (not a scream of dissatisfied). Because i really don't know how the filmmaking process going in other countries. I wish to write score (ofcourse), but i can't come in and say "hi! i'm a super-duper composer, hire me!".
Now i'm trying to understand all specifics of this business market. It's like an investigation operation.

And another question :)
I've noticed that plenty of scores try to copying Zimmer-style action tracks. When drums are smashing to much close to overlap, strings are playing hysterical staccatos and horns sounds like hell calls, brutal and powerful. And music part of composition placed in background of sound velocity. Themes mostly have a good sounds but poor music.

I can't undertand, it's wish of directors or composers try to copy Zimmer-style and directors approve it?
 
Film scoring, just like any aspect of filmmaking - or anything else for that matter - runs through fads. There were the very Classical and Romantic influenced scores of the 30's and 40's. The 50's had quite a few jazz/beat influenced scores. The 60's, 70's and 80's had a large number of pop music influenced scores (such as the James Bond movies with its classic guitar theme. Remember "Shaft"? That wah-wah guitar became ubiquitous in blacksploitation films). In the 80's it became very popular, and it still is, to use actual era songs as a part of the score or have them written exclusively for the film (yes, it was done earlier, but it's prevalence exploded in the 80's; "Breakfast Club" anyone? How about "Against All Odds"? Even Disney jumped on the bandwagon with a number of their films such as "Tarzan" and "The Road to Eldorado"). Then there was/is the John Williams era - and on and on and on. The current Zimmer-style fad is the result of using hard rockin' songs for action segments so it became a score convention; Zimmer just sort of formalized it.

Since films are a product - and don't kid yourself, films are a product like cars, soap and breakfast cereal - the "manufacturers" (producers and/or directors) are unwilling to take large chances, preferring to present the "tried and true" to their target market (audiences). Those that are willing to take a chance on something different, and if that chance succeeds, are the trend-setters and everyone else will jump on the bandwagon. And different doesn't have to be new; it can be something that is pulled out of the cobwebs from a dark corner of the attic, cleaned up and given a new paint job. An example would be Michael Giacchinos wonderful score for "The Incredibles" where he resurrects the 60's spy film genre and gives it a real kick in the ass.

If you want to get into the business of film scoring you had better be ready to give the director his Zimmer-style score if he wants one. In fact, you had better be well versed in a great many styles. At least until you become the next John Williams, or Hans Zimmer, or Max Steiner, or Franz Waxman, or Miklos Rozsa, or Alfred Newman, or Dimitri Tiomkin, or Danny Elfman, or Randy Newman, or Alan Silvestri or.........
 
We don't mind paying for them...if we can afford them. My question would be why do composers and music rights cost so much money?

When we approach bands to use their music in our film, they agree, and either charge WAY too much money because they are ignorant to indie budgets, or they find out we are getting more attention then they previously thought we would, and try and charge more even though they've already signed a contract. It's annoying...

As far as composers...we have several different ones we use. They are friends, and we pay them what we can.

Music is important...and we try our best to pay our composers...but sometimes that's hard to do...sometimes we don't even pay our AD! Rough I know...but that's what 'deferred' pay is...we all have to work pro bono from time to time...
 
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Making a film is a huge undertaking financially so filmmakers will try to get as much as they can for free. If the filmmaker is denied a service for free, he/she may pony up for that expense and try to get the next service free. In other words, you don't have to work with free. Filmmakers will ask, but you can say no. If you say no you can propose to work within their budget. Filmmakers are very receptive to low rates as well as free.

Bottom line: Just because they ask you to work for free doesn't mean they won't pay. Do you have negotiating skills? :)
 
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