Why Do Independent Films Have Such A Limited ROI?

I would say it's because of the McDonaldization of America - people want to walk into a movie theater knowing basically what they are going to get and they don't care if it's bad for them or if it's particularly good.

Just look at [insert names of 90% of "blockbuster" movies here], which makes millions and millions of dollars, even though it's "bad."

People don't want to go to the effort of finding a more obscure movie, or taking a chance on not liking it.

Why try cooking and eating veal marsala when you can have McNuggets?

**shrug** My two cents.
 
Lucky Hardwood said:
You have $21,500 of your own money in that film? That is a hell of a lot more than I could raise on my salary. How do you do it?
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Sorry, was your original question rhetorical? Apparently I misunderstood.

To answer your second question, how do I do it: Well, I work a full-time job, my wife works a full-time job, we also run a small business on the side, we have no kids, we (try to) make sound investments, we pinch pennies, and then take 4 years to make a film. If it's all you really want to do you will make it happen, one way or another. If it isn't, you will find an excuse not to, guaranteed.
 
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SinEater said:
It's the easiest way to get ROI. If you outright ask someone, they'll say they prefer originality. This doesn't change the fact that a formulaic genre film has a far greater chance of making a profit.
Click to expand...
My observations reconcile with this.
Modern life in America is... mentally unhealthy.
Our time and attention is fragmented by an insane cultural value of "If you're not doing something you're bad"!
So, we jam as much sh!t-to-do in our lives to out-compete someone/everyone/The Man/our guilty conscious.
We want what we want the moment we want it and quality-wise good enough is largely good enough.
We want good sh!t, we don't care if it's fragmented, just give it. Fast and frequently.
We'll b!tch about it - as we keep doing it.

We want our films to follow generally accepted rules:
- boy gets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl.

Then we want them to creatively follow the rules:
- faux blue boy finds girl, blue girl doesn't want faux blue boy, faux blue boy saves planet and gets blue girl
- bat boy finds funny boy, funny boy rebukes bat boy, bat boy tosses funny boy off a office building
- wizard boy finds a family, bad wizard denies him, wizard boy's family helps him defeat bad wizard

Now, where people start mucking up what they want is the same rant I've ranted before.
"We want change. We want something new".
Give 'em something new.
"I don't understand this. Why did you give me this"?
Give 'em the old stuff.
"We want change. We want something new".
Give 'em the old stuff colored blue.
"Ha ha ha. We like the funny blue people. Ha ha ha".
Idiots.


People won't eat fifty burgers and expect only three to not to taste like sh!t.
But they'll watch four dozen sh!tty movies five minutes at a time just to complain about them being predictable and formulaic... as they keep going back for more servings.

Serve the McCustomers what they want. You just gotta make your own sauce unique.
 
2001 Productions said:
Sorry, was your original question rhetorical? Apparently I misunderstood. To me $25K is the "little bucks" you were referring to, but I'm guessing you mean even littler than that.

To answer your second question, how do I do it: Well, I work a full-time job, my wife works a full-time job, we also run a small business on the side, we have no kids, we (try to) make sound investments, we pinch pennies, and then take 4 years to make a film. If it's all you really want to do you will make it happen, one way or another. If it isn't, you will find an excuse not to, guaranteed.

(p.s. -- I won't even tell you what my previous feature cost; shot, edited and completed on 16mm film. It was a helluva lot more than $25K :blush: )
Click to expand...

I know that 25k isn't big money for a movie. I was gasping at it coming out of your own pocket. Congrats! That takes some major dedication. I'm contemplating renting a RED MX with DP for a one day shoot to can two scenes for mine. The cost boggles the mind, but if you want it to look professional, you have to use pro gear.

SinEater said:
It's the easiest way to get ROI. If you outright ask someone, they'll say they prefer originality. This doesn't change the fact that a formulaic genre film has a far greater chance of making a profit.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

rayw said:
My observations reconcile with this.
Modern life in America is... mentally unhealthy.
Our time and attention is fragmented by an insane cultural value of "If you're not doing something you're bad"!
So, we jam as much sh!t-to-do in our lives to out-compete someone/everyone/The Man/our guilty conscious.
We want what we want the moment we want it and quality-wise good enough is largely good enough.
We want good sh!t, we don't care if it's fragmented, just give it. Fast and frequently.
We'll b!tch about it - as we keep doing it.

We want our films to follow generally accepted rules:
- boy gets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl.

Then we want them to creatively follow the rules:
- faux blue boy finds girl, blue girl doesn't want faux blue boy, faux blue boy saves planet and gets blue girl
- bat boy finds funny boy, funny boy rebukes bat boy, bat boy tosses funny boy off a office building
- wizard boy finds a family, bad wizard denies him, wizard boy's family helps him defeat bad wizard

Now, where people start mucking up what they want is the same rant I've ranted before.
"We want change. We want something new".
Give 'em something new.
"I don't understand this. Why did you give me this"?
Give 'em the old stuff.
"We want change. We want something new".
Give 'em the old stuff colored blue.
"Ha ha ha. We like the funny blue people. Ha ha ha".
Idiots.


People won't eat fifty burgers and expect only three to not to taste like sh!t.
But they'll watch four dozen sh!tty movies five minutes at a time just to complain about them being predictable and formulaic... as they keep going back for more servings.

Serve the McCustomers what they want. You just gotta make your own sauce unique.
Click to expand...

I actually LOLd.
 
Modern life in America is... mentally unhealthy.
Our time and attention is fragmented by an insane cultural value of "If you're not doing something you're bad"!
So, we jam as much sh!t-to-do in our lives to out-compete someone/everyone/The Man/our guilty conscious.
Click to expand...

lucky for me, I'm from Ireland where if you're doing something it's odd or you're rich and showing off :)
then again, maybe its cos I'm lazy

This whole thread is kind of hurting my bank just thinking about it! I can't stand that people eat up the rubbish they do , crap movies covered over by high production quality. But then again, I can count on one hand the amount of low budget films (and micro budget) that actually something worth watching in terms of story. When it comes down to it, if you're going to have to watch something that says absolutely nothing (or at most, nothing new) I guess the majority of people will go for something flashy. Well, at least the theatres will risk their time and money on those.

Sorry for the rant, I cut it short as could have kept going :D
 
hello everyone..

i think the idea here is that most indie film makers can make good money
it does not matter if the movie had a budget of $100 or even pennies!

In today's world when you have cameras like 550D capable of shooting high resolution video. YOU CAN make a movie that WILL get you a good ROI.

There are zillions of examples that movies on small budget can make money and had made money in the past.

The idea is to put your best effort and be creative! But have creativity with value,


Some examples>

--- Rocky --- was a damn low budget and one of the most successful movies EVER!

--- Once ----- a musical movie on VERY LOW budget has made 20x the money.

--- El Mariachi --- BEST example of what indies are capable of! shot for $7000 and made 2000% return

--- SlumDog Millionare --- oh my this was one of the most successful movies of recent times


And there are many many many others..

The idea is BE YOURSELF, BE ORIGINAL and keep learning to improve your work. I am sure that if you make movies for your creativity MONEY WILL follow!

But if you make a movie for money chances are that it won't be as successful.

Best of luck!


I would like to add a word or two about marketing!

With the invent of internet. Marketing has become cheaper and even almost free. Use facebook and other social networking sites to spread your movie trailer.

You can create series of videos on youtube and build a subscriber base.

One of the perfect example of this was Blair Witch Project that movie would nt be in theatres if it was not marketed online.

Use internet it will cost of you $50 a month and some of your skills and time! That's it!

Like i said, be creative and be original and enjoy your work! Money and viewers WILL FOLLOW!
 
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priyankeshu said:
Some examples>

--- Rocky --- was a damn low budget and one of the most successful movies EVER!

--- Once ----- a musical movie on VERY LOW budget has made 20x the money.

--- El Mariachi --- BEST example of what indies are capable of! shot for $7000 and made 2000% return

--- SlumDog Millionare --- oh my this was one of the most successful movies of recent times
Click to expand...

The only example that you listed that can apply is Once. The film market has changed immensely since Rocky and El Mariachi were released. With a budget of $15,000,000, it's hard to consider Slumdog Millionaires the pinnacle of low budget film-making. The fact of the matter is it's difficult to get ROI in micro-budget situations. You won't be able to afford name actors, so your marketability suffers immensely. Since you have no name actors, distributors are highly unlikely to pick up your film.

Sure, there are always going to be exceptions, but don't kid yourself. Making a low budget film is a gamble, and it's likely it won't pay off.
 
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An investor will ask, "Do you want to be profitable or original?"

You can't have both in the eyes of investors and distributors.

Your source material for your story must come from something that already has a profitable fan base is what I mean to clarify.
 
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priyankeshu said:
hello everyone..

i think the idea here is that most indie film makers can make good money
it does not matter if the movie had a budget of $100 or even pennies!

In today's world when you have cameras like 550D capable of shooting high resolution video. YOU CAN make a movie that WILL get you a good ROI.

There are zillions of examples that movies on small budget can make money and had made money in the past.

The idea is to put your best effort and be creative! But have creativity with value,


Some examples>

--- Rocky --- was a damn low budget and one of the most successful movies EVER!

--- Once ----- a musical movie on VERY LOW budget has made 20x the money.

--- El Mariachi --- BEST example of what indies are capable of! shot for $7000 and made 2000% return

--- SlumDog Millionare --- oh my this was one of the most successful movies of recent times


And there are many many many others..

The idea is BE YOURSELF, BE ORIGINAL and keep learning to improve your work. I am sure that if you make movies for your creativity MONEY WILL follow!

But if you make a movie for money chances are that it won't be as successful.

Best of luck!


I would like to add a word or two about marketing!

With the invent of internet. Marketing has become cheaper and even almost free. Use facebook and other social networking sites to spread your movie trailer.

You can create series of videos on youtube and build a subscriber base.

One of the perfect example of this was Blair Witch Project that movie would nt be in theatres if it was not marketed online.

Use internet it will cost of you $50 a month and some of your skills and time! That's it!

Like i said, be creative and be original and enjoy your work! Money and viewers WILL FOLLOW!
Click to expand...

This is really bad advice. Especially the marketing advice. Especially the $100 advice. Especially the "hope" advice that says if you do your best without really thinking, something will happen. It won't. You have to become far larger and stronger that this post insinuates before you stand a chance.

Blair witch project is the poster child for a fluke project that is not replicate-able on any significant scale. People talk about it like they've seen a new formula for cinema, but the evidence strongly opposes that view. I estimate 20,000 people telling each other "found footage is the way" this year, and 1 successful found footage film per decade. Marketing for blair witch was in the millions.

At last count I had 1.1 million internet views across multiple networks, mostly Vuze. It did absolutely nothing for me. Nobody in the industry surfs youtube for employees.
 
Nate North said:
This is really bad advice. Especially the marketing advice. Especially the $100 advice. Especially the "hope" advice that says if you do your best without really thinking, something will happen. It won't. You have to become far larger and stronger that this post insinuates before you stand a chance.

Blair witch project is the poster child for a fluke project that is not replicate-able on any significant scale. People talk about it like they've seen a new formula for cinema, but the evidence strongly opposes that view. I estimate 20,000 people telling each other "found footage is the way" this year, and 1 successful found footage film per decade. Marketing for blair witch was in the millions.

At last count I had 1.1 million internet views across multiple networks, mostly Vuze. It did absolutely nothing for me. Nobody in the industry surfs youtube for employees.
Click to expand...



What i am saying here is not just from my fantasy but i have experience in online marketing. I have been selling ebooks and e-courses online. That's how i earn my daily bread. So i know what i am talking about. And most of my online promotions is free or as good as free.


People are open to new things when they are on internet and they DO BUY A LOT online.


Sure, selling books and online courses and movies might be a different thing, BUT same buying principles apply IMO...


It may be difficult initially but you can gradually build up a viewer base and build email list or start a blog and inform them about your latest work.

I am sure that there is a NEED amongst people who would love to watch a good movie even if there is not a famous actor involved. It has happened several times in the past.

And if there is a need, you CAN exploit that need to offer them a product and make money hence forth.

Yes, all this is not easy as a PIE but it is VERY doable.



another example would be movies that are shown on TV.

If you can convince TV channels managers that your movies have viewers (on youtube etc) you can get them to licence your work to be shown on TV. And i don't think that TV is a bad medium for making money (though the amount of money indie guy can make this way can vary a lot)

Justin beiber and many others have got into mainstream media because of YouTube.

Most of the times TV channels will pay you 50% of the revenue of advertisements. Not bad for an indie movie.

The best part of going on a micro budget is you can take risks and try something new. Hollywood guys can't do that.

Slumdog millionare was not exactly an indie movie but still can be considered as a small budget movie and it did nt had any famous actor in it.

Blair witch project was marketed online and online marketing surely can be replicated I am not talking about artistic aspect of it but online marketing part...

For the advertising part
don't under estimate the power of internet and youtube. You can literally reach millions of people for pennies and even using free services like email and blogging twitter etc.

The electronic medium has literally made it possible. There are people writing and selling books on amazon without even going to publishing houses.

The viral nature of web 2.0 and social networking scene can do wonders.

The only condition is that what you are promoting should have quality, without that even millions of marketing budget would fail.


Don't forget other alternative ways of making money with your movies


- Find sponsors or affiliate marketing. There is a lot of opportunity here. you can tie up with any online website and offer ads between your video. FilmRiot on youtube is a good example who does that.

- YouTube has a partner program and pays decent money, there are several others.

- You can show first part or 20 minutes of your movie as a teaser for free on youtube and ask people to pay for download or full view.

- You can sell things related to movie posters to the viewers.



Again, i think these ideas are worth trying.
Nobody can tell what the result would be
until we try..


A good story can lead to WORD OF MOUTH publicity and is the best tool for getting more audience. In fact there are many classic movies that were a box office fail but gradually caught up became HIT because of word of mouth.

The only condition >> you gotta do QUALITY work!

"The more eyeballs = more money" if that's not the case with you then you are just not doing it the right way...

streamline the process and it should work!
 
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Nate North said:
This is really bad advice. Especially the marketing advice. Especially the $100 advice. Especially the "hope" advice that says if you do your best without really thinking, something will happen. It won't. You have to become far larger and stronger that this post insinuates before you stand a chance.

Blair witch project is the poster child for a fluke project that is not replicate-able on any significant scale. People talk about it like they've seen a new formula for cinema, but the evidence strongly opposes that view. I estimate 20,000 people telling each other "found footage is the way" this year, and 1 successful found footage film per decade. Marketing for blair witch was in the millions.

At last count I had 1.1 million internet views across multiple networks, mostly Vuze. It did absolutely nothing for me. Nobody in the industry surfs youtube for employees.
Click to expand...



What i am saying here is not just from my fantasy but i have experience in online marketing. I have been selling ebooks and e-courses online. That's how i earn my daily bread. So i know what i am talking about. And most of my online promotions is free or as good as free.


People are open to new things when they are on internet and they DO BUY A LOT online.


Sure, selling books and online courses and movies might be a different thing, BUT same buying principles apply IMO...


It may be difficult initially but you can gradually build up a viewer base and build email list or start a blog and inform them about your latest work.

I am sure that there is a NEED amongst people who would love to watch a good movie even if there is not a famous actor involved. It has happened several times in the past.

And if there is a need, you CAN exploit that need to offer them a product and make money hence forth.

Yes, all this is not easy as a PIE but it is VERY doable.



another example would be movies that are shown on TV.

If you can convince TV channels managers that your movies have viewers (on youtube etc) you can get them to licence your work to be shown on TV. And i don't think that TV is a bad medium for making money (though the amount of money indie guy can make this way can vary a lot)

Justin beiber and many others have got into mainstream media because of YouTube.

Most of the times TV channels will pay you 50% of the revenue of advertisements. Not bad for an indie movie.

The best part of going on a micro budget is you can take risks and try something new. Hollywood guys can't do that.

Slumdog millionare was not exactly an indie movie but still can be considered as a small budget movie and it did nt had any famous actor in it.

Blair witch project was marketed online and online marketing surely can be replicated I am not talking about artistic aspect of it but online marketing part...

For the advertising part
don't under estimate the power of internet and youtube. You can literally reach millions of people for pennies and even using free services like email and blogging twitter etc.

The electronic medium has literally made it possible. There are people writing and selling books on amazon without even going to publishing houses.

The viral nature of web 2.0 and social networking scene can do wonders.

The only condition is that what you are promoting should have quality, without that even millions of marketing budget would fail.


Don't forget other alternative ways of making money with your movies


- Find sponsors or affiliate marketing. There is a lot of opportunity here. you can tie up with any online website and offer ads between your video. FilmRiot on youtube is a good example who does that.

- YouTube has a partner program and pays decent money, there are several others.

- You can show first part or 20 minutes of your movie as a teaser for free on youtube and ask people to pay for download or full view.

- You can sell things related to movie posters to the viewers.



Again, i think these ideas are worth trying.
Nobody can tell what the result would be
until we try..


A good story can lead to WORD OF MOUTH publicity and is the best tool for getting more audience. In fact there are many classic movies that were a box office fail but gradually caught up became HIT because of word of mouth.

The only condition >> you gotta do QUALITY work!

"The more eyeballs = more money" if that's not the case with you then you are just not doing it the right way...

streamline the process and it should work!
 
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So if I wanna make a feature on an very low indie budget, I should do what's been done several times before? That's not fun lol. People should be honest and just say they like cliched formulaic movies. No shame it if you do.
 
SinEater said:
It's the easiest way to get ROI. If you outright ask someone, they'll say they prefer originality. This doesn't change the fact that a formulaic genre film has a far greater chance of making a profit.
Click to expand...

Well people should just say that they like formulaic movies then. Nothing wrong with being honest about it. It doesn't seem to true exactly though. I mean Heat, and Braveheart, are more well known movies, then say, Under Siege and Sudden Death. A lot of the newer generation hasn't even heard even heard of the latter two. It seems more original movies are the ones that live on, and therefore make more money over time maybe, but that's just what I'm seeing.

I tried to use the mulitquote instead of creating two posts, but it created two anyway. Pardon me.
 
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harmonica44 said:
So if I wanna make a feature on an very low indie budget, I should do what's been done several times before? That's not fun lol. People should be honest and just say they like cliched formulaic movies. No shame it if you do.
Click to expand...


Hollywood does it all the time.

Fright Night -- Remake

Conan -- Remake

Planet of the Apes -- Reimage.

We can do it with Public Domain classics like Frankenstein, Dracula, Fall Of The House Of Usher, Hercules, Vampires, Werewolves, Ghosts, and many others.

More popular material you have to buy the rights to use as a license.
 
Remakes are different than cliches though. A remake remakes a classic, where as doing it over again, and not a remake, is just ripping off a classic. But I guess they are just doing the same thing too.
 
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I optioned a bestselling book with a great , original plotline for 5k. Script by the author included. You can absolutely do something both original and marketable, as long as you don't start with the assumption that you are the best writer in history. A good version of Moby Dick will get you on TV every time. That's free.

Robert Lois stevenson's "Kidnapped" or "Black Arrow" would also be some public domain stuff that would form a base for a great film.

Hollywood is currently making a 270 million dollar version of "John Carter of Mars" which is public domain as far as I know.

Story is easy, as long as you don't spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel.
 
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