What's the best lights for this effect?

[harmonica44]

I was asked to direct a short film by some actors who want to make their script, and I want to light it bright for deep focus, so I don't have to pull focus while moving the camera, and doing other things.

Right now I have 500 watt halogen lights, and was going to get 1000 watt ones, and maybe put four on two stands, for a key light, and fill light and perhaps some other kind of light as a back light.

I want to use tungsten colored lights, cause I think they produce the best skin tones, which a lot of filmmakers seem to agree on.

But those lights are very hot, and the actors I have worked with before, would actually be bothered by the heat. Is their a better tungsten light I could be using for the same price or no?

Thanks.

 

[RED ROBOT]

No one can answer you properly if we don't know the specifications of the location you'll be shooting in.

Also you don't shoot with deep focus because you don't have to worry about focusing but because it will help you push the story .

 

[jax_rox]

What stop do you want to be shooting at?!

Get a focus puller OR learn to pull your own focus OR don't do as many moves OR tell your actors to suck it up.

Having four lights as your key will give you four shadows unless you place them behind diffusion.

According to the Arri Photometric calculator, a 1k Fresnel placed at around 15 ft away from the subject will give you enough light to stop down to ~ T4 1/2 @ 400 ISO.
A 650w fresnel at 10' would give you ~T5.6 @ 400 ISO
A 2k open face light at 10' will enable you to stop down to ~ T8 @ 400 ISO. Assuming you're talking about 'correct'/'normal' exposure here.

SO, what stop do you want to shoot at? I can't think of many times I'd ever want to shoot at T8.0.

Also, you'll run into colour issues if you use tungsten lights under daylight conditions, unless you gel the lights.

 

[harmonica44]

Sorry I should have specified. As far as I know the location is all in a house. The actors are producing it and supplying their own location, so assuming it will still be a house by shoot time...

Well instead of daylight, I was going to white balance the camera to the tungsten lights, like most movies do. Is that bad? I will find out if the actors are want to shoot it at night or day, but a lot of people are free at night from their jobs, so it will most likely be night. If we shoot in parts of the house with no windows, then I can use tungsten lights all the way.

It's true that having four of those lights will produce four shadows without something to diffusion. I might just use singles on stands though then. I will do tests.

I assume by T8.0, you mean f8.0. Yes I was thinking of shooting at least f8 and lighting bright enough for it. I just don't have a focus puller and I want to be able to move the camera, and maybe I might have hold the boom pole as well, since I am a one man crew at this point. I know I should be shooting deep focus as a storytelling purpose, but right now it's more of a budget purpose and it's me only as a crew.

 

[IndiePaul]

Do some night shooting in your own house. Use whatever lights you have and try different F-stops. Mount your camera on a tripod. Walk into the frame yourself. Then review the footage.

Night shooting can be a right pain. It's not an issue with the right lights but the lighting required can be considerable. jax_rox's shadow comment is an excellent one.

Also consider shooting at the weekend too, during the day.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. I have been doing fstop tests and it seems with f8 on a medium close up shot, I got about six inches of focus, at f8 on a 50mm. I don't like going below 50mm cause then you got some barrel distortion, even a little for an MCU. I can ask the actors what they want for their script, night or day, since it's their script and they are producing it.

But f8 only gives six inches about on 50mm, and according to the depth of field calculator, it's 0.47 inches of focus if the actor is 4 feet away from the camera. Close ups they may move back and forth. I can tell them to keep very still, but that can just make for boring shots where people do not move, and not in the best interest of storytelling.

I also do not like shooting in open window daylight cause the sun constantly goes behind clouds, then comes out, then goes back. It's a nightmare to match footage in the scene shoots I have been on so far in other projects. Not just mine but that feature I acted in has scenes all like that in the rough cut, that are undergoing heavy duty changes in post, just to get matches. Is shooting with sunlight through open windows, really a good idea, when you are constantly battling that?

 

[jax_rox]

I don't like going below 50mm cause then you got some barrel distortion, even a little for an MCU.

Really? What lenses are you using?? I've happily used 25mm, 35mm, 40mm etc. lenses without any barrel distortion. <25mm is when you start to notice barrel distortion.

But f8 only gives six inches about on 50mm, and according to the depth of field calculator, it's 0.47 inches of focus if the actor is 4 feet away from the camera. Close ups they may move back and forth. I can tell them to keep very still, but that can just make for boring shots where people do not move, and not in the best interest of storytelling.

So, pull focus? What's your issue...? You can't put your hands on the lens? I can tell you any situation where there's a moving camera and moving actors becomes difficult for focus pullers, especially considering you're generally asked to pull focus at T2.8 or less!
Yet we do it.
The reality is that if my focus puller is inadequate at pulling focus within the constraints of what I give him/her, and I can't do it myself as the DP, then I either need to adjust (i.e. stop down, move back, change the shot etc.) or simply accept that parts of the shot may be out of focus.
It's filmmaking - and when you don't have the budget or crew you need to make compromises. What compromises are you going to make?

But then you've been told this 200,000 times and you just don't seem to listen/read.

I also do not like shooting in open window daylight cause the sun constantly goes behind clouds, then comes out, then goes back. It's a nightmare to match footage in the scene shoots I have been on so far in other projects. Not just mine but that feature I acted in has scenes all like that in the rough cut, that are undergoing heavy duty changes in post, just to get matches. Is shooting with sunlight through open windows, really a good idea, when you are constantly battling that?

So, wait for it to come out of the clouds? Or shoot on a day where there's full cloud cover, or very few clouds in the sky?

I have created 'sunlight' pouring through windows using artificial film lights in the past. I've put HMIs through windows so that I don't have to worry about the sun moving, or going down (as was the case - when we wrapped I walked outside and thought 'when the heck did it get dark?!).

You don't have access to HMIs or lights - fine. Do what you can with what you have. Cut down the number of shots, or wait for the sun to come back out/go back behind a cloud.

If you wait until you have evey possible solution for every possible situation, you'll never make a film ever.

Maybe you should simply shoot on a handycam, or iPhone? Their smaller sensors mean you'll have a lot more depth of field, and their better autofocus means you won't have to worry much about focusing.
If you want that large sensor, filmic look, then you need to deal with the fact that there's a need for a lot more focus pulling than on a smaller sensor. And if you don't want to pull focus, then shoot on a smaller sensor, or learn how to twist a ring on a lens. It's really not that difficult to come up with solutions for yourself..

 

[harmonica44]

Well I have an 18-55 zoom lens right now. Well during the MCU close ups, their is very little distortion, but when you get closer there is. It's just that an OTS shot and a CU shot look better at 50mm then at 35mm. There is a certain 'intimacy' with the character, when you shoot with a 50mm for those shots compared to 35 or less. So I would prefer the 50mm to achieve that feeling. There is also barrel distortion in the OTS shots at 35mm. The back of the persons head is distorted and it looks unnatural.

I could shoot on the iphone but iphone has no manual exposer control (at least my friends' iphones do not), and the barrel distortion is even worse. Same with my friend's handycams. I could use HMI lights but I was told on here that I should light with daylight coming through the windows, so I thought that was a disadvantage over HMI light therefore. I haven't tried an HMI yet but actually wanted an HMI light as a fill light, to go with the tungsten lights perhaps. Is an HMI brighter than a 1000 watt halogen?

I got a DSLR cause I was told to on here, but it's difficult to pull focus when I have to hold the boom at the same time, or move the camera, when it comes to movement shots.

I did decide on a solution myself, and it's to shoot at a low f-stop, for deep focus. Now I am trying to put that solution in play.

 

[sfoster]

I got a DSLR cause I was told to on here, but it's difficult to pull focus when I have to hold the boom at the same time, or move the camera, when it comes to movement shots.

wait what, you are holding a boom, and a camera, and pulling focus at the same time ?
that sounds like a horrible idea. Who are you, goro?

 

[harmonica44]

I was being sarcastic. I am not really doing all three at the same time. What I meant was is that I have to hold the boom. So I have no choice but to put the camera on a tripod, and then pick up the boom and rely on the camera to be deep focus enough, to shoot on it's own with no operator behind it. I am making a compromise and this is it.

I can't find HMI lights at stores where I live but will keep looking.

I know I was told before that I have to make compromises and I thank everyone for giving me answers before. And now that I am trying to make one, I am again being told I need to make a compromise even though this is it. Is this compromise just not do-able?

 

[jax_rox]

Why not get a friend to hold the boom? Or one of the actors who isn't in the scene?

HMI lights cost ~$5,000 each to purchase, to rent you're looking at anywhere from $150-500/day depending on light output and local rental prices.

Surely getting a friend to help you out is an easier/better compromise than this ridiculous situation you're describing?

 

[harmonica44]

Oh wow. I was told that a lot of low budget indie filmmakers use HMIs to save money, so I thought they would be much cheaper. Well I got the halogen lights. I can get a friend to help, but well... I keep teaching friends on how to operator the boom but none of them know the concept of aiming the mic directly at the mouth.

I keep telling them but it seems no matter how much I specify, they all want to hold the boom between the actors in one spot, instead of shifting it from mouth to mouth. They just cannot wrap their heads around the concept of how recording on-axis dialogue works. I will keep trying to teach two of them.

I am also not very good at focus pulling yet, and don't think I can master it by the time they want to shoot. I will keep trying though.

 

[RED ROBOT]

Man I got about 3 short films each of them are 5 minutes + long and honestly there is not a single shot that it is out of focus . The only thing that I had to shoot with was my DSLR in my hands . I didn't even used a rig and it looked fine.

How is it that you always have problems with the focus? Are you using Zeiss F0.7 wide open ?

 

[harmonica44]

No I have a Canon 50mm prime, and a Canon 18-55 zoom. What fstop do you shoot at?

On the 50mm prime at f8, I got about six inches of room for the actor to move without going out of focus, in a close up. That's not much. Am I doing something wrong, cause that's what I got?

Do you just have your actors keep very still? I could do that, but then they can't even lean forward or back or anything if they want and become self conscious in their performance.

 

[PaulGriffith]

Sell everything and buy a GoPro. Nearly infinite depth of field for a few hundred.

You complain a lot about having to pull focus, man, I mean A LOT. It's just what you have to do to make movies. There's no getting around it, that's what it is. I don't actors complaining about memorizing lines or boom ops complaining their arms are sore.

 

[harmonica44]

Yeah I know. I just haven't figured out the compromise since I have to move the camera on a steadicam, and run a boom pole during the static shots. I thought a good compromise would be lighting for deep DOF.

But I will find a compromise. Perhaps for the static shots, I will shoot as deep as possible and hope no one goes out of focus while I am booming. Then for the steadicam shots, I will just do my best to pull focus while operating the steadicam, even though I am not suppose to. But that's the compromise.

 

[Foggy]

It really isn't that difficult to teach someone how to boom op,on a recent short I put together I had a boyfriend of one of the actresses boom for me,he had never done it before and did a fine job,the sound came out perfectly well.

 

[harmonica44]

I guess my friends can learn it, they are just not bothering to aim properly. But I have one that might be able to and will see. I also want a back up plan in case she doesn't show or in case something comes up. But if she does I think she may do a better job.

 

[sfoster]

hide a mic in a bush or something

 

[harmonica44]

Well the mic has to be aimed at the mouth for the sound to pick up on axis. Otherwise I wouldn't need a boom op. Thank for the idea. It's a good idea in theory, but the director tried that, on the feature I acted in only to have the sound come out really bad, since the mic is hidden and not pointed at the actors directly, or close enough to follow them while moving.

I will think of something. Perhaps I will ask the actors if they would ADR the whole movie, if the boom op does not go well, and I have focus the camera, and then just do wild dialogue later.