What was the hardest lesson you learned?

[gorillaonabike]

Would love to know the hardest lesson you learned.

Mine was in a recent music vid. I agreed the music vid but not in anywhere like enough detail and did not have creative control. This meant that effectively, the artist could dictate what they wanted and the result was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPBZo76JqY

Please feel free to comment and I will be unfazed. I wanted to edit this entirely differently but contractually left myself open to be overruled. I am kicking myself because of it and have learned a very important lesson. It doesn't matter what my creative vision is if someone else is dictating terms. As a note, I would emphasise the musician is extremely good, really enjoy his music and believe he is a very nice guy.

However, more importantly, what was the most important lesson you learned when shooting / editing music vids or for other people? What is that one element which is extremely important?

 

[Zensteve]

more importantly, what was the most important lesson you learned when shooting / editing music vids or for other people? What is that one element which is extremely important?

That, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you think of the finished product as long as the client thinks it's awesome.

Remember that, and you'll be able to sleep at night.

.

 

[gorillaonabike]

That, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you think of the finished product as long as the client thinks it's awesome.

Remember that, and you'll be able to sleep at night.

.

Steve, you are truly zen!

Could you be suggesting that my change of approach is wrong? What are your thoughts? Although I have a strong opinion, maybe I am wrong.

 

[directorik]

However, more importantly, what was the most important lesson you learned when shooting / editing music vids or for other people? What is that one element which is extremely important?

I completely agree with Zen.

That is the most important lesson I learned when working for
other people. "Creative control" is a myth. I learned to give the
client the product they want - not the product I want. I now
do that as a writer, as an editor, as a director and even as a
producer. It is my job to deliver what they want and I do that
to the best of my abilities. for me I would much rather get that
next gig than have "creative control".

 

[gorillaonabike]

I completely agree with Zen.

That is the most important lesson I learned when working for
other people. "Creative control" is a myth. I learned to give the
client the product they want - not the product I want. I now
do that as a writer, as an editor, as a director and even as a
producer. It is my job to deliver what they want and I do that
to the best of my abilities. for me I would much rather get that
next gig than have "creative control".

OK.

* Takes deep breath *

It's really hard for me at this stage as I know what was possible and it seems like a missed opportunity. Still, I appreciate your opinion - the voice of experience.

 

[Sweetie]

What Zen says is right. It's along the lines of "Whoever brings the money is the boss"

 

[WalterB]

I completely agree with Zen.

That is the most important lesson I learned when working for
other people. "Creative control" is a myth. I learned to give the
client the product they want - not the product I want. I now
do that as a writer, as an editor, as a director and even as a
producer. It is my job to deliver what they want and I do that
to the best of my abilities. for me I would much rather get that
next gig than have "creative control".

I'd rather give the client what they need.
Often it is what they want, but sometimes they want things that are bad.
When I just started my own business I did a few times exactly what the client wanted, althouh I thought it was a bad idea. A year later they asked me whether I can fix it, which in essence turned it into what I suggested.

So yes: the client should be happy.
That is very very, if not most, important.
But I speak up when I think what they want is a bad idea.
It's important to learn to understand what they really want.
I want my clients to stay happy

 

[Alcove Audio]

I agree with everyone - it's the clients dime, even when your not being paid. It's your job to make the client happy.


For another lesson, although I never learned it in a really hard way, was be thoroughly prepared. That's why all the experienced people here on IndieTalk always suggest doing a few shorts and working on other sets before embarking upon your first feature. You get to make your mistakes in a small way and not learn that hard, bitter le$$on.

 

[gorillaonabike]

I'd rather give the client what they need.
Often it is what they want, but sometimes they want things that are bad.
When I just started my own business I did a few times exactly what the client wanted, althouh I thought it was a bad idea. A year later they asked me whether I can fix it, which in essence turned it into what I suggested.

So yes: the client should be happy.
That is very very, if not most, important.
But I speak up when I think what they want is a bad idea.
It's important to learn to understand what they really want.
I want my clients to stay happy

I spoke up, let him know there were other options which I strongly believed were better, a million miles away from what he wanted and put them in writing as well as showed him a cut to demonstrate this. However, he chose to ignore any other option or advice and he personally chose what he wanted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPBZo76JqY

What I might do is spruce up my original rough cut and put both this and his version on my website: Just to show the kind of options available. And I do like the song and he's a very nice guy, very generous and at the end of the day, I really like his music.

Think I need a few beers and chill out. Jeez, this was a hard lesson - but I think I'll stop being sore after a few beers.

 

[jax_rox]

It's an old and cheesy line, but the customer is always right.

It doesn't matter how average you think the idea is - if you're working for them, they're your boss, and all you can do is make them aware of the other options available to them and how/why you think it would be better to do it your way.

If they still want to do it their way, then that's their prerogative.

When I'm shooting someone's film, whilst I may be the DP, the Director's still my boss and if they don't like the frame, or want to get a different (even more boring) shot than the one I want(ed) to get, then that's what we get. In the end it's the Director's film. I can make my opinion known (by pulling the Director aside and having the discussion) but it's their decision in the end.

I sometimes make sure I have the conversation, just to cover my ass. 'Are you sure we don't need more cutaways for this montage?' - sometimes I'll ask this not necessarily because I personally think we need more, but simply so I don't get the call in two months asking why we didn't get more cutaways because now the montage is boring, and hardly montagey.

 

[baoliun]

+1 jax_rox! Unless you have avery strong bond with the client/director/producer so you can argue with them without any negative consequences, it is better to do this kind of questions/suggestions and if they don't want to do it,well that's it.

In W.Murch's book "In the blink of an eye" he mentioned that he did a very risky cut and director was afraid to stick to it. He insisted and it worked well ldo.

However,he said those kind of things put your career on the line

 

[jax_rox]

In W.Murch's book "In the blink of an eye" he mentioned that he did a very risky cut and director was afraid to stick to it. He insisted and it worked well ldo.

Every now and then there are things you should push for. I've pushed for shots that have looked awesome in the film. I've also pushed for shots that perhaps weren't worth pushing for.
The important thing is picking your moments, and ensuring you remember the Director is always your boss. Often we'll do it both ways just to have the option in the edit room.
But I'll never hold up a set for an argument, and I'll never 'argue' - more discuss civilly with a Director about what I think is best. At the end of the day, if the Director is adamant (and we don't have time to do it two ways - which is often the case; 1st ADs hate it when you add shots or decide you're going to do something different ways), then that's what we'll do.

 

[WalterB]

Every now and then there are things you should push for. ..........

True!
It takes some experience to know when you need to push.
Last year I had a client who had a list of desired changes after the first preview of the edit.
Half of it was improving the video.
The other half wasn't.
So I changed the good half and made 1 adjustment covering the bad half partly in a different way.
I send the new edit with: 'I made the changes, but this and that I didn't do: it will kill the video."
Their reply: "This edit is perfect!"

If they insisted I would make the other adjustments as well: they're the boss.
But it's also my duty to give them the best advice and endproduct possible.

And indeed: don't ever argue in public on set.

I was once in a situation (hired as the soundguy and to pull off a few slidershots with my Cinevate track, where the marketing people started discussing the order of shooting with the director. And then the real client (someone from a large bank) started to join the discussion.
The director (one of my best friends) asked my opinion about what we should do.
"We should have lunch now."
Discussion ended. During lunch I looked true the shootlist and storyboard with the director and made sure he was back on track. It can be hard to keep focus on your plans when the clients start debating dicisions on the set...
So: always be prepared!
Know everything you planned.
Make lists. Do not rely on your 'good memory'.
I made the mistake once to not write a detail down and in the heat of the moment I forgot it.

 

[baoliun]

True!
It takes some experience to know when you need to push.
Last year I had a client who had a list of desired changes after the first preview of the edit.
Half of it was improving the video.
The other half wasn't.
So I changed the good half and made 1 adjustment covering the bad half partly in a different way.
I send the new edit with: 'I made the changes, but this and that I didn't do: it will kill the video."
Their reply: "This edit is perfect!"

If they insisted I would make the other adjustments as well: they're the boss.
But it's also my duty to give them the best advice and endproduct possible.

And indeed: don't ever argue in public on set.

I was once in a situation (hired as the soundguy and to pull off a few slidershots with my Cinevate track, where the marketing people started discussing the order of shooting with the director. And then the real client (someone from a large bank) started to join the discussion.
The director (one of my best friends) asked my opinion about what we should do.
"We should have lunch now."
Discussion ended. During lunch I looked true the shootlist and storyboard with the director and made sure he was back on track. It can be hard to keep focus on your plans when the clients start debating dicisions on the set...
So: always be prepared!
Know everything you planned.
Make lists. Do not rely on your 'good memory'.
I made the mistake once to not write a detail down and in the heat of the moment I forgot it.

I was a runner on the set where DOP and Director were arguing in public. That looked very, very bad and unpro.

 

[gorillaonabike]

I was a runner on the set where DOP and Director were arguing in public. That looked very, very bad and unpro.

I was on a short and the DoP and director had a wrestling match over the position of the camera. DoP is now a pro and has shot a $3m USD movie whereas the director is a waiter and a part-time taxi driver.

They should've fiilmed the wrestling match as it was better than the rest of the short!

 

[8salacious9]

biggest lesson iv learned is, make sure everyone knows the rules before shooting, if we agreed a story then they should stick to it, if they on set begin to mess around, just walk away.

some people like to think they are creative, when in actual fact they are deterring the true potential from shining through.

these people are sometimes known as DIVAS.

 

[gorillaonabike]

biggest lesson iv learned is, make sure everyone knows the rules before shooting, if we agreed a story then they should stick to it, if they on set begin to mess around, just walk away.

some people like to think they are creative, when in actual fact they are deterring the true potential from shining through.

On my last short, two of us called the shots and because we were so different, we ended up coming up with different ideas which we could pick from. It was an absolute joy! And it's a good job we ended up agreeing on the final result as Pete is ex-special forces and probably has 50 different ways of killing me with a steadicam!

With others it's clearly different. A number of professionals on IT have indicated that my idea of taking a hard line is the wrong approach and I should focus on a happy customer, even if the product is not what I envisaged.

Fortunately, my next 'commercial' shoot will be funded by me. Technically, there may be a second person on board as someone I mentioned this to immediately wants in. I only mentioned it to them in passing and now they want to get involved and a slice of the action as they think there's money in it! My only issue is I think someone else has exactly the same idea!

 

[CraigL]

I think two lessons I found the hardest to learn; as in, traumatic to experience, not difficult to learn, they became apparent very quickly!

First, you'll never the get the shot you really wanted the first few shorts. No matter how carefully you plan and imagine, you'll be fighting light, shadow, FoV, DoF, talent, DR, audio... just about everything. I really thought my first I could make the images I saw in my head, but it just didn't turn out that way. However, you learn, you choose what to purchase next to improve and you keep going. I finally feel that some of my shots lately are getting more limited by the camera than my skill or the other gear we have, which was an oddly good feeling the first time it happened.

Second, as mentioned elsewhere, a film set is NOT a democracy. Preproduction can be, but not production. We have an informal group that does these for fun, and during preproduction everyone offers ideas and just generally gets involved and has fun. The first couple productions, that spirit continued, and we had a director that really didn't have a clear vision of each scene and sequence in the short, nor how they all related to the whole short. It was a disaster and people got pissed off because they felt their ideas were constantly ignored.

Now, when I'm directing, I plan out all the shots for a specific reason (theme, space, staging, colour, pacing) and I make sure I know why each shot is the way it is. Our group knows that the deal is during production, feel free to offer a suggestion if you see something awesome that could make a great shot. But, to remember that every shot in the film has a reason, and that reason extends from long before this particular shot to long after it. Even something like a mind-blowing shot might not be usable if it's in the middle of a series of shots that leads up to climactic shot. Having too good of shot in the middle might ruin the pacing leading up to the actual climax shot, and detract from it. I think that helps deflate the situation, and I think it's true. There's so much more to a specific shot that just that one specific shot. You have to consider how everything is related and will play out in the final product, and that's just not something most people can do on the fly.

However, claiming to have "the big picture" in mind all the time only works if you do, in fact, know and can articulate what you're trying to achieve in each shot and why. You might not have to actually spell it out, but the crew will pick up whether you're winging it or not, and that's like smelling blood to a predator; they'll circle you and swarm you. =)

CraigL

 

[Cracker Funk]

Yeah, I pretty much disagree with this entire thread. I feel like advice is being doled out as if all filmmakers are in the same situations, and all of our client relationships are the same. C'mon guys, we know that IT is a very diverse crowd, and what works for one might be poison for another.

If you're running an established production company, and you've got a steady stream of work, with a large body of prior work to showcase in a demo reel, then I can see how it might make sense to just give the client what they want, even if what they want is crap. You can afford to allow them to bathe in their crap while you move on to the next project.

But if your "production company" is you (and maybe a couple friends), and you're ever on the look-out for a quality project, and you've only got a limited amount of material for a demo reel, then you really can't afford to make crap. If you're being paid a couple hundred dollars for a project, that money really isn't worth the time wasted on a project that won't help you in any way whatsoever. Sure, it's a paycheck, but the amount of time you spent on it probably would've been better spent working at McDonald's.

If you're a mercenary, and you've got clients calling you, good for you. Go ahead and churn out that crap. The customer is happy, yay!

But the really little guys need to focus their time and energy on projects that will benefit them in other ways than just financially, because the little guys really aren't making any money anyway.

For a music video, I think it's very important to establish a relationship with the band in which they simply trust you to do what you do. They make music. You make movies. You don't tell them how to make music. They shouldn't tell you how to make movies. Drawing this boundary is of the utmost importance.

That doesn't mean they should have no say whatsoever. They should be encouraged to take part, offer suggestions, just like actors in a movie would. But at the end of the day, the director of the video is the person with the vision. It is the director's video.

Say, do you think Michel Gondry just gave the client what they wanted? Spike Jonze? David Fincher?

Of course they didn't. The customer is usually wrong. Learn to trust in yourself as a director, and inspire the confidence in those whom you need to trust in you.

 

[jax_rox]

But the really little guys need to focus their time and energy on projects that will benefit them in other ways than just financially, because the little guys really aren't making any money anyway.

For a music video, I think it's very important to establish a relationship with the band in which they simply trust you to do what you do. They make music. You make movies. You don't tell them how to make music. They shouldn't tell you how to make movies. Drawing this boundary is of the utmost importance.

The difference is you're not paying them to make music. If you were paying them, say to compose a score for your film. If you want something different, they should do it. They can advise you and say 'I think it will sound better like this' but if you're dead set on having a country and western song, you're not going to be happy being forced to pay them for a hip-hop song (and mostly likely won't or will make them work on the country and western song before they get paid, even if you end up using the hip hop song in the film).

That doesn't mean they should have no say whatsoever. They should be encouraged to take part, offer suggestions, just like actors in a movie would. But at the end of the day, the director of the video is the person with the vision. It is the director's video.

Say, do you think Michel Gondry just gave the client what they wanted? Spike Jonze? David Fincher?

Of course they didn't. The customer is usually wrong. Learn to trust in yourself as a director, and inspire the confidence in those whom you need to trust in you.

This is what I mean when I say sometimes there are things you should push for. Most, if not all of these directors have pushe against the studio to retain their vision for their films, but either way if they were Directing a commercial they would give the client what they want.

If you buy a green iPhone off eBay and a blue android turns up you're going to send it back and request a refund.

If you need creatively fulfilling projects, make your own films until you start getting work that's creatively fulfilling and also pays the bills.