Using a very small cast?

Hey all.
For a short film I'm gonna do for school (it'll probably be no longer than 20 minutes tops) that needs to be Hitchcok influenced because of the work I'm basing it around (essay on Hitchcock's influence) I'll probably be using a very small cast probably like 4 or so people, at least one female, possibly 2 if I can find enough people, although the cast will probably be predominantly male.
I'm wondering if people have advice for working with small casts.
And, if it's not too much trouble, any good Hitchcock style plots that can be done with a very small cast.

Many thanks,
Sam
 
Make a crappy 1 minute short as fast as you can, give yourself a day.

Then make a somewhat longer crappy 5 minute short, give yourself two days!

Show a few select respected friends your shorts, take notes on what went wrong.

Make your hitchy masterpiece!

You will have gone from no experience in filmmaking, to an experienced short filmmaker in 3 days and be 100x more prepared than you are today.

Crazy logic FTW. :weird:
 
I would say between 5-10 minutes for a Hitchcock based short. 1 minute is too short for a project based on the work of a director like Hitchcock (although I agree that you should practice with shorter films first).

Someone in another thread used 'Rope' as an example, and this isn't a bad idea, especially with a small cast and limited time/resources. Other than that I would try and include the archetypal Hitch reference: your very own Grace Kelly, a crazy McGuffin and suspense with a capital S.

I agree with all that, although I have no idea what to use as a McGuffin and I'm slightly unsure as to how to go about creating suspense effectively.
Advice or help?
 
watch some films. u said u had a bunch of hitchcock films. watch these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xs111uH9ss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPFsuc_M_3E&feature=channel


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG43hjICE2U&feature=related
 
I agree with all that, although I have no idea what to use as a McGuffin and I'm slightly unsure as to how to go about creating suspense effectively.
Advice or help?

That's the great thing about a McGuffin! You can use anything!

First though you'll have to create a situation, drive the plot forwards so that the outlook is bleak for the protagonist and then use the McGuffin to resolve the problems with almost magical ease.

I believe that is the very formula Hitchcock used! :D

As for the small cast size issue (which I'll put my hand up in not addressing) I think that you'll find it very easy to work with less people. It's always more comfortable using only 2,3,4 characters when you're doing your first short film.
 
There's nothing wrong with taking advice, but what's more important is practice.
I don't know how much time the OP has for making this short film, but since it is a project for school I would highly suggest doing some shorts (no matter how long they are going to be) to practice the craft.
Because in my experience you're most likely to make the mistakes the others warned you of anyway, and that's perfectly fine as long as you don't make them again later.

It's been a while since I last saw "Rear Window" but how many speaking roles did that film have?
In most films, the thing that creates the most suspense is what is not there.
 
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No matter how long it is, did he get the answer to his question about a small cast?

You beat me to it. While at work, it dawned on me that in all this talk of length of the project (which is a worthy digression, in my opinion), nobody has answered the question. So, let's do that.

Semiazus, the reason people have suggested you work with a small crew is because it'll be tremendously easier, for many reasons. Firstly, it's just easier to manage on set. It's also worth mentioning that one of the most common frustrations of a first-time filmmaker is just getting people to show up. In this respect, you're making things easier if you can limit your casting to your closest of friends -- the ones that you know are truly excited about the project, and will follow through on everything they say they will do. That is, assuming you'll be using friends, as is a very common thing to to. If you can get trained actors onboard, and get them to show up, big ups to you.

The true challenge, in my opinion, isn't how to work with a small cast. The tricky part is writing a screenplay that only involves a small cast that is both believeable and intersting. Normal life doesn't just involve a few people. Normal everyday life involves interraction with many different people. So, in addition to conceiving a story that people will want to watch (which is difficult enough, as is), you'll have to do it with the limitation of putting them in some situation that would exclude them from normal everyday social interraction.

Maybe a couple of close friends are backpacking through a remote region of the woods, when they stumble across a neat log cabin. Being the myscheivous kids that they are, they snoop around the cabin, even entering it. When they hear the cabin's owner return, they quietly sneak out the back door, then spy from a distance, to see some kind of suspicious activity. But they couldn't tell for sure what was going on; they just know it looked suspicious. Then, a light-bulb goes off in one of their heads -- he remembers something he saw inside, something that didn't mean anything at the time, but now that they've seen his suspicious activities, he puts two and two together, realizing that what he saw inside was evidence of a heinous crime. Now, what do they do? Report it to the authorities? Report what? The only thing incriminating they've seen was inside, and how do they explain what they were doing breaking into this guy's house? So, they stake him out, hiding in the woods, and the drama unfolds from there.

Back in July a filmmaker right here on the indietalk forums said,
“But filmmaking is personal. Everyone shouldn't do everything the
same. You do things your way, I'll do things my way, and the world
will be a better place for it.” Excellent words from a filmmaker
making their first feature and getting advice from experienced fellow
filmmakers against doing it their way.

I wanted to reply to this earlier, but I had to run off to work. I see your point, and it's a very valid point. I also see the irony in that here I am telling him to take our advice, when just a few months ago, I was rejecting near-unanimous advice. However, I think my quotes have been taken a little out of context, and I believe there is a significant difference between these two situations.

The difference is that I was making an informed decision, when I decided to go against the grain. I knew all of the options that laid ahead of me, and what it would take to accomplish the goal. The option that you guys were recommending was one that I simply did not want to wait for, for personal reasons.

Semiazus, on the other hand, was making an uninformed decision, when he first decided to make a 20-minute film (Semiazus, I don't intend that as a put-down, just a statement of the fact that you've never done it before). I felt like somebody needed to say, "uhh, dude, I don't think you realize how huge a task you're planning to undertake".

So, to that end, instead of us debating, amongst ourselves, how long of a piece he should make, maybe we should fill him in on just what is going to go into this, so that he can make a more informed decision.

The toughest part is the script, Semiazus. Writing a compelling screenplay, of any length, is quite difficult. The longer it gets, the more difficult it becomes. Simply put, if you don't have a solid script, you won't have a solid movie. And unless you're a prodigy, you're not going to bang-out a 20-page script overnight, not one that's worth a damn, anyway. If you're going to do a 20-minute piece, this is an area that you'll want to spend a great deal of time working on.

Now that you've got your awesome script, you start pre-production. Planning, planning, planning, and more planning. For your project, first thing you might want to do is scout the location(s). Once you've chosen your location(s), it'd be a good idea to start playing with lights, so as to save time on the set (and take notes). This would also be a good time to run a rough idea of blocking through your head, to get some kind of idea of where you'll be placing your camera, for maximum coverage (coverage -- getting lots of different shots of the same action, with the camera in different locations; maximum coverage is your friend). You'll want to compile some kind of shot list -- all of the shots you'll need to gather, over the course of the entire production. For a 20-minute film, this is going to be a big number. Now that you've got a shot list, you can make a shooting schedule -- which shots are you going to get on which days? Your main heroes -- they're in practically every shot. Your villian, however, he's only in maybe 1/3 of the film, so you definitely don't want to shoot your film in sequence, but get all of the shots that have the villian in them, first. All props should be listed, which costumes are needed on which days, and any other special considerations. Organization is key. Off the top of my head, these are the bare minimums required for pre-production, in addition to casting, of course (though that's probably just gonna be your closest friends), securing props, etc. I'm sure others might think of something important that I've left out.

Okay, so now production begins. You can do it all at once, or you can be a weekend warrior. If you choose to do it all at once (this is way more fun, in my opinion), you better have some gung-ho friends. For a 20-minute piece, I'd say 5 days is a reasonable shooting schedule. 5 long days. And here is something that might catch you off-gaurd: filmmaking is tiring. Those 5 days are not going to be relaxed. It'll probably be the time of your life, and you'll look back and laugh at how much fun you had. But you will be working hard, five long days in a row. Be prepared for a multitude of surprises, and be ready to adapt, on the fly. If you're using your friends as actors, don't be surprised if you often find yourself feeding them their lines. If you choose the weekend warrior option, don't be surprised if production has delays, when someone you thought would be available suddenly becomes unavailable when life gets in the way.

Great, so you wrapped on time, and you feel like you've got terrific footage. Now you can start editing. Prepare to spend just as much time on editing, as you did on production (in fact, probably more, since you're new to this).

Let's add up some ballpark figures (and I'm using conservative estimates):

Writing: 20 hours
Pre-production: 20 hours
Production: 50 hours
Post-production: 50 hours

That's 140 hours. Hypothetically, you could complete this project in three-weeks, but that's only if you're somehow able to work on it 46+ hours/wk (which is more than a full-time job). Considering the fact that you're in school, this will probably be a multi-month project.

Now, if that sounds like something you want to do for your first filmmaking project ever, more power to ya. Sometimes the road less traveled is the best path to follow. I admire trailblazers who tread off the beaten path, and perhaps directorik is right -- maybe you'll learn a TON by making your first project a big one. And maybe it'll be awesome.

Would it make you feel better if, instead of telling you to make your first film short, we told you to get a lot of "test-footage"? While taking the time needed to perfect the script, you can get test-footage of a very brief scene, in which you shoot continuous action, and work on getting maximum coverage. Then, you get test-footage in which you practice lighting. Then you get test-footage practicing sound. Then, you get test-footage of taking your camera off your tripod. You can get all sorts of test-footage, for a mileau of skills, so that by the time you've perfected your awesome 20-page script, you'll be able to enter pre-production feeling confident in what you know you'll be able to pull-off successfully.

Okay, rant over. I've done my best to give you the info that I think is important in helping you make this decision. Now that you have this info, the one thing I definitely agree with directorik and others on is that the only person who knows the best decision for you is you. Do what you feel is best, have fun, and stick with it.
 
The difference is that I was making an informed decision, when I decided to go against the grain. I knew all of the options that laid ahead of me, and what it would take to accomplish the goal. The option that you guys were recommending was one that I simply did not want to wait for, for personal reasons.
I wasn’t saying anything against your advice. I said your advice
is excellent. Okay, I used the word “good”, and I meant it.

I was challenging your suggestion of a straw vote.

Offering advice is what we all do here. Your post seemed to suggest
that not taking your advice might somehow be dangerous. Your
analogy to building a building suggests that if a filmmaker were
to make a long short film and fail it could be analogous to
building a building that fails.

An informed decision is very nice but I felt a straw vote is a poor
way to for a filmmaker to make their final decision. If we had
taken a straw vote about how you shot your first feature I suspect
most of the filmmakers who are at least at an intermediate level
would advise against your method. And frankly, it would have
been foolish for you to take that advice.

So to be clear, I wasn’t taking your quotes out of context. I was
challenging only your suggestion of a straw vote.

Now Semiazus has different points of view. Yours is to not make a
20 minute film as a first effort because it’s a huge task and may
very will fail. My advice is to make the 20 minute film he wants.
And ironically for the very same reasons. Because it’s a huge task
and might very well fail. And I think a filmmaker - a first time
filmmaker - would benefit greatly from shooting for the moon;
going for their passion project right out of the gate.

Keeping your words in context, for personal reasons Semaizus wants
to do this specific project at the length he feels fits the
project. It’s the project he has the most passion for. I think he
should do it. If he fails then he movies to a new project.
 
Fair enough. I think my most recent post is a better representation of what I meant to get across. I think that before he jumps into the deep end, he should have an idea of just how deep it is. If he still wants to take the plunge, more power to him. I see your logic, and that makes sense.
 
Excellent advice Cracker.

Some people do better stepping carefully into the
shallow end, testing the water, learning how. Some
love to jump into the deep end. I'm convinced that
most people offer advice based on their method.

I was always the deep end jumper.

So you see where I'm coming from.
 
That's the great thing about a McGuffin! You can use anything!

First though you'll have to create a situation, drive the plot forwards so that the outlook is bleak for the protagonist and then use the McGuffin to resolve the problems with almost magical ease.

I believe that is the very formula Hitchcock used! :D

Isn't that just like a Deus Ex Machina? :hmm:
 
Isn't that just like a Deus Ex Machina? :hmm:

Pretty much, although the point of deus ex machina is that it resolves the plot without being part of the original plots progression, a la the arrival of the warship in Lord of the Flies.

The McGuffin can be used in the same way but its purpose is mainly to thrust the plot forward, a la the Allspark in Transformers.
 
Pretty much, although the point of deus ex machina is that it resolves the plot without being part of the original plots progression, a la the arrival of the warship in Lord of the Flies.

The McGuffin can be used in the same way but its purpose is mainly to thrust the plot forward, a la the Allspark in Transformers.
Interesting. I have never understood the MacGuffin (as Hitch uses
the word) to be something that resolves the plot or moves the plot
forward. I have always understood it to be something unimportant
to the plot - something that draws attention away from what is
really happening - like a magicians slight of hand.

The theft of $40,000 is the MacGuffin in “Psycho”. The theft has
nothing to do with the plot and does not resolve the problems of
the protagonist, the antagonist or the story and does not move the
plot forward. I've always found the scene where Norman absently
deposes of the forty large to be one of the great cinema moments.

Hitchcock at one point said, “So you see, a MacGuffin is nothing
at all.”

On the other hand, the dues ex machnia is something I have
understood to be the device that suddenly resolves a problem with
the plot.
 
I would say that McGuffins tend to have greater importance in the first act and then once that line of travel for the plot is established the characters take care of themselves.

I'm sure there's a Wikipedia page for it.

Yep (thanks for hanging in with me there :D )

A MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is "a plot element that catches the viewers' attention or drives the plot of a work of fiction".[1] The defining aspect of a MacGuffin is that the major players in the story are (at least initially) willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to obtain it, regardless of what the MacGuffin actually is. In fact, the specific nature of the MacGuffin may be ambiguous, undefined, generic, left open to interpretation or otherwise completely unimportant to the plot. Common examples are money, victory, glory, survival, a source of power, or a potential threat, or it may simply be something entirely unexplained.

This doesn't specifically refer to a Hitchcockian McGuffin, but it gives a general idea.
 
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