Too Much for a Short?

[wheatgrinder]

Hi all,
Iv been working on my script for "The Last Little Girl" In my next draft I want to reformat it into the classic three act structure of the Heroes Journey. I want this to be a short. Am I trying to cram too much into a 20\30 min film?

For us noobies..
This is formatted based on some ideas I (just) learned in Michel Hauge and Christopher Volgers "The Heroes 2 Journeys"

The percentages are percentage of script, for example in a 20 page script the "50% turn" would be page 10.



The Last Little Girl Story Arc
Act I

• 
  <The Old World>
• Lynn with older sister as best friends. (wearing iPod)
• Lynn practicing piano (wearing iPod) complaining
• Taking care of ducks (wearing iPod)
  
  <10% turn - Call To Adventure>
  
  
• Golden Ring Shaped Space Ship Arrives
• Rumors of strange things, people disappearing, no babies being born.
• Older sister is seriously injured, disappears in golden flames
  
  <the new situation>
  
  
• World has changed, surviving in the new world is first goal
• Only Lynn and Dad are left at the farm (rest of the world is quiet?)
• Dad teaching Lynn survival skills, how to shoot, how to work the generator, How to use compass and map. Lynn and Dad enjoying time together.
• Gathering and cooking duck eggs.
• Dad drives to town to scavenge supplies
• Lynn is alone, takes care of animals, practices piano
• Dad crashes truck and vanishes in golden flames (Lynn doesn’t know)
• Dog pack attacks and kills ducks
• Dad still gone, generator breaks down
  
  
  <25% turn - Change Of Plans>
  
  
• Dad hasn’t returned! MAIN GOAL = Reunite With Dad! The viewer knows this is an impossible goal, but Lynn doesn’t!

Act II

• Lynn makes plans, gets out the map
• Makes gun carrier, saws off shotgun
• Gathers remaining food, packs up
• Dangerous creek crossing
• a cute victory dance with the ipod on!
• Evades dog pack
  
  
  <50% turn - Point of No Return>
  
  
  
• Sleep sweet tonight, listens to music.
  
  <complications and higher stakes>
  
  
• Dog steels food while Lynn dozes with her headphones on..
• Lynn hunts for food
• Lynn gets chased by dog pack
• gets lost in the woods
• smashes iPod and tries to use battery to start a fire..sucess!
• Fire goes out from the sudden rain
• Lynn loses backpack
  
  <75% turn - Major Set Back>
  
  
• Lynn falls down ravine, stranded, hurt, gives up..

ACT III

• 
  <dig deep!>
• Lynn learns that her father is in the ship. They communicate long range(Dads hologram)
• Dad talks about finding Mom and Sister there too
• Dad explains a little of what is happening on the ship. The ship is not a “ship” it is a portal..
• Dad explains that Lynn can be reunited with her family, but she has to get to the old underground research facility, before its too late...
  
• Lynn clambers up the cliff
• Lynn struggles, limps down the road, using shotgun as crutch, and finds the research facility,
  
  
  <95% turn - climax>
  
  
• Lynn finds Dad in the control room.. but dad has new info.. now he understands what’s going on.. He explains how the visitors are not aliens, but humans from alternate universe trying to rescue the human “survivors” by translating them to the other universe
• Dad explains the choice she must make
  
  
• She flips the switch. Dad, Mom and sister lost to her forever, but humanities future assured
• Lynn leaves the complex, walks towards the sunrise and finds the other kids
  
  <aftermath>
  
  
• New life, new world

 

[Tinalera]

Hi all,
Iv been working on my script for "The Last Little Girl" In my next draft I want to reformat it into the classic three act structure of the Heroes Journey. I want this to be a short. Am I trying to cram too much into a 20\30 min film?

For us noobies..
This is formatted based on some ideas I (just) learned in Michel Hauge and Christopher Volgers "The Heroes 2 Journeys"

The percentages are percentage of script, for example in a 20 page script the "50% turn" would be page 10.



The Last Little Girl Story Arc
Act I

• 
  <The Old World>
• Lynn with older sister as best friends. (wearing iPod)
• Lynn practicing piano (wearing iPod) complaining
• Taking care of ducks (wearing iPod)
  
  <10% turn - Call To Adventure>
  
  
• Golden Ring Shaped Space Ship Arrives
• Rumors of strange things, people disappearing, no babies being born.
• Older sister is seriously injured, disappears in golden flames
  
  <the new situation>
  
  
• World has changed, surviving in the new world is first goal
• Only Lynn and Dad are left at the farm (rest of the world is quiet?)
• Dad teaching Lynn survival skills, how to shoot, how to work the generator, How to use compass and map. Lynn and Dad enjoying time together.
• Gathering and cooking duck eggs.
• Dad drives to town to scavenge supplies
• Lynn is alone, takes care of animals, practices piano
• Dad crashes truck and vanishes in golden flames (Lynn doesn’t know)
• Dog pack attacks and kills ducks
• Dad still gone, generator breaks down
  
  
  <25% turn - Change Of Plans>
  
  
• Dad hasn’t returned! MAIN GOAL = Reunite With Dad! The viewer knows this is an impossible goal, but Lynn doesn’t!

Act II

• Lynn makes plans, gets out the map
• Makes gun carrier, saws off shotgun
• Gathers remaining food, packs up
• Dangerous creek crossing
• a cute victory dance with the ipod on!
• Evades dog pack
  
  
  <50% turn - Point of No Return>
  
  
• Lynn learns that her father is in the ship. They communicate long range(Dads hologram)
• Dad talks about finding Mom and Sister there too
• Dad explains a little of what is happening on the ship. The ship is not a “ship” it is a portal..
• Dad explains that Lynn can be reunited with her family, but she has to get to the old underground research facility, before its too late
• Sleep sweet tonight, listens to music.
  
  <complications and higher stakes>
  
  
• Dog steels food while Lynn dozes with her headphones on..
• Lynn hunts for food
• Lynn gets chased by dog pack
• gets lost in the woods
• smashes iPod and tries to use battery to start a fire..sucess!
• Fire goes out from the sudden rain
• Lynn loses backpack
  
  <75% turn - Major Set Back>
  
  
• Lynn falls down ravine, stranded, hurt, gives up..

ACT III

• 
  <dig deep!>
• Lynn clambers up the cliff
• Lynn struggles, limps down the road, using shotgun as crutch, and finds the research facility,
• Lynn finds Dad in the control room.. but dad has new info.. now he understands what’s going on.. He explains how the visitors are not aliens, but humans from alternate universe trying to rescue the human “survivors” by translating them to the other universe
• Dad explains the choice she must make
  
  <95% turn - climax>
  
  
• She flips the switch. Dad, Mom and sister lost to her forever, but humanities future assured
• Lynn leaves the complex, walks towards the sunrise and finds the other kids
  
  <aftermath>
  
  
• New life, new world

Interesting script Thirty minutes could be pulled off, and even then one would be careful about a "rushed" feel. 20 minutes would be pushing it and definitely feel rushed IMO.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Just a script outline showing the story arc.. each bullet is is a scene.. or close to it..

 

[Tinalera]

Yea, I figured I was just going by the basis of if that was going to be your script, timewise.

If it's pared down a bit, then 20 minutes is doable-looking more at 30 min from what I can see anyway. Got some good ideas in there though.

I'm not too good at the "X amount of pages is X amount of time calculations" Math isn't my strong suit....

 

[wheatgrinder]

After reading this all day, I just spotted one big change that I think wold be good.

What is motivating Lynn to get up and get moving again after the major setback? Right now, nothing..

If I MOVE the bit at the 50% turn where Dad contacts Lynn via hologram, if I move that to the opening of Act III, Lynn will be motivated.. I don't think this hurts the 50% turn at all.. what do you think?

(I edit the OP.. to see what it looked like.. )

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Also, FYI, that is a VERY long short (30 minutes). I made a 35 minute short and the length killed me as far as getting into festivals. If that is the intent (a festival film), You're making a hard road for yourself. If it's the length the story needs, go for it, I did, just recognize it will be very hard to place in festivals.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Gonzo, thanks.. Im trying right now to pare out unnecessary bits.. for example, gathering duck eggs is not necessary.. In your experience what IS a good length for shorts for festivals?

 

[Dreadylocks]

Seems like a well put together story, it reminds me of a lot of daydreams I have about being the last person alive

I think this could easily be 20-30 minutes, as long as it's pretty fast paced. That is a lot of scenes for 30min, but so many of them could be very brief and convey what's happening, especially if there is no dialog, the audience doesn't need to linger on stuff much to 'get it.'

For example I think (and I haven't read your full script, obviously) that the 'old world' portion of the story (which is 2 pages, right?) could be shown with credits going (if you're gonna do credits at the beginning) and could easily be 30 seconds.

I can see a couple spots where you might get lagged up if you aren't careful. When dad is showing Lynn all the survival skills(btw, totally makes me think of Heinlein books, in a good way), I don't know how you've written the scene, but it would go faster with a sort of montage sequence. Don't know what style you're going for, if you want to stay away from sequences like that, or if there are some specific plot points in those scenes that need dialog to get them out there.

You may not need to have her escape from the wolves/dogs before the 'raised stakes' portion. If you make her creek crossing heroing enough. Just some howls at some point would work to foreshadow them stealing her food while she sleeps. (Not to mention it would be easier to film!)

When she's in the pit is a great time to have dad's hologram come, it's the perfect reason for her to get her strength back to keep going. Although if there were some way for her to find out everyone was on the ship, and where she needs to go at the original time you put it in there, I think that's still the right place. Maybe she finds a robot from a malfunctioning ship and it tells her things before breaking down, only she misunderstands it's intentions as harmful because the robot fails to give her the whole story?


Anyway, really solid short, wheat. Hope I'm not too far off base with my suggestions.

So when does principle photography begin?

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Gonzo, thanks.. Im trying right now to pare out unnecessary bits.. for example, gathering duck eggs is not necessary.. In your experience what IS a good length for shorts for festivals?

12 to 15 minutes. Not a hard and fast rule, and some stories can't be told in that length. 30 to 40 minute shorts do get accepted by festivals, but it's more rare. From the programmers point of view, they can program two 15 minute shorts in the same time one 30 minute short consumes. Again, not discouraging you from telling the story you want to tell, and longer shorts do get accepted, but you cut your odds quite a bit.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Seems like a well put together story, it reminds me of a lot of daydreams I have about being the last person alive

I think this could easily be 20-30 minutes, as long as it's pretty fast paced. That is a lot of scenes for 30min, but so many of them could be very brief and convey what's happening, especially if there is no dialog, the audience doesn't need to linger on stuff much to 'get it.'

For example I think (and I haven't read your full script, obviously) that the 'old world' portion of the story (which is 2 pages, right?) could be shown with credits going (if you're gonna do credits at the beginning) and could easily be 30 seconds.

I can see a couple spots where you might get lagged up if you aren't careful. When dad is showing Lynn all the survival skills(btw, totally makes me think of Heinlein books, in a good way), I don't know how you've written the scene, but it would go faster with a sort of montage sequence. Don't know what style you're going for, if you want to stay away from sequences like that, or if there are some specific plot points in those scenes that need dialog to get them out there.

You may not need to have her escape from the wolves/dogs before the 'raised stakes' portion. If you make her creek crossing heroing enough. Just some howls at some point would work to foreshadow them stealing her food while she sleeps. (Not to mention it would be easier to film!)

When she's in the pit is a great time to have dad's hologram come, it's the perfect reason for her to get her strength back to keep going. Although if there were some way for her to find out everyone was on the ship, and where she needs to go at the original time you put it in there, I think that's still the right place. Maybe she finds a robot from a malfunctioning ship and it tells her things before breaking down, only she misunderstands it's intentions as harmful because the robot fails to give her the whole story?


Anyway, really solid short, wheat. Hope I'm not too far off base with my suggestions.

So when does principle photography begin?

Most of your suggestions are already in the pipe! I'm condensing the heck out of it. The skills training was in my head as a montage like thing, so your RIGHT ON there.

The dog pack evasion was to be another small victory, making her "fall" to the pit even sadder. Might do away with it for time..

I like your idea of introducing the goal of getting to the research facility sooner. Maybe at that time he is UNABLE to share very much info, hinting at some unexpected activity on the ship, maybe hes escaping?? (can you say "Help me OB1")

When he visits her again in the pit, maybe its more dream like, maybe hes figured out how to work the communications equipment better and can project her into a VR thing.. Hey, that fits my metaphor rather well, thanks for the idea! What I DONT want to do at that point, is give away the later choice. Id want this to focus on being a pep talk, and last words of wisdom thing (though we don't know it yet)

Thanks again for the ideas.. Ill finish up this outline, tonight, bang out the new draft by the end of next week. Start working preprod and scheule a shotting for when ever I can schedule some vacation!

 

[wheatgrinder]

I do have one question Dreddylocks..

ITs about mom... Shes not mentioned in any of the bullets above, but I have written her into some scenes... seems to me that since she didn't make this list.. maybe shes out.. A single dad is more "sympathetic" anyway... though Ill be killing yet another baby. (my other favorite scene is dad meeting mom and daughter in the ship..)

 

[bird]

44 scenes, IMO, is far too many for a 20-30 minute short. In fact, that amount is on par with a feature-length. Sounds like a fascinating idea, though. Since you're a Premiere Member, you may want to seek out Filmy in regards to structure...he's authored a very streamlined 4-act model (yet within the classic hero-journey motif). I've found it very helpful in laying out all the necessary beats, etc.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

44 scenes, IMO, is far too many for a 20-30 minute short. In fact, that amount is on par with a feature-length. Sounds like a fascinating idea, though. Since you're a Premiere Member, you may want to seek out Filmy in regards to structure...he's authored a very streamlined 4-act model (yet within the classic hero-journey motif). I've found it very helpful in laying out all the necessary beats, etc.

Can't really view "scenes" that way IMO. A scene just marks a change of place, time, etc... My 35 minute short had 51 scenes in it. A scene could be 3 to 4 minutes screen time, or 10 seconds. My current film has scenes that are 20 seconds, and scenes that are 6 minutes.

 

[Graeme]

Hmm, I would guess each act is a 20-30 minute each so you would be at upwards of 60 minutes, plus intro credits and exit credits you might as well go for the 72minute mark.

You could go it in 30 minutes but it may be tight.

That said, my 5 minute nature short was 5 scenes; my ~10 minute short I'm working on this long weekend is 12 scenes but each scene is short; and my longer ~40 minute short film I'm shooting near the end of the month is 31 scenes.

So that would put you a scene a minute, thus my original estimate. But I may be wrong, as I too am learning this filmmaking thing (I just know how long based on script length + action fluff I'm putting in).

 

[bird]

Can't really view "scenes" that way IMO. A scene just marks a change of place, time, etc... My 35 minute short had 51 scenes in it. A scene could be 3 to 4 minutes screen time, or 10 seconds. My current film has scenes that are 20 seconds, and scenes that are 6 minutes.

I think you can find a happy medium when estimating a *standard*, and a traditional, narrative feature usually 'stands' between 40-50+/- scenes. Yes, a scene can be seconds, but not every narrative and its' scene's ebb and flow can be (visually) resolved (for an audience) in seconds. You also need to consider the logistics of setting up for all these proposed scenes. IMO, I think 44 scenes is really too much for a 20-30 minute short. But I'd certainly be interested in seeing Wheatgrinder pull it off.

Gonzo, do you have your 35 minute project online, anywhere? edit Cool, you adapted a Lovecraft piece. I just viewed your teaser. Very nicely styled.

 

[citychik]

Recommended reading: Writing Short Films by Linda Cowgill. She drives home the point that structure for a short is really different from how a feature can be structured. Certain elements need to happen or be revealed right away - there's no time for exploring. Very helpful book!

 

[Dreadylocks]

I do have one question Dreddylocks..

ITs about mom... Shes not mentioned in any of the bullets above, but I have written her into some scenes... seems to me that since she didn't make this list.. maybe shes out.. A single dad is more "sympathetic" anyway... though Ill be killing yet another baby. (my other favorite scene is dad meeting mom and daughter in the ship..)

Is she really necessary (other than not offending you wife lol)? If not you need to drop her. And you're right that a single dad is more sympathetic, but if you want the daddy-daughter relationship to be stronger even still, I would change the sister into just a playmate.

Oooo, here's an idea! So what if mom was one of the original 'test subjects' from the aliens/other humans? Maybe she went missing and it was never explained? Or maybe she died in childbirth? With either of these you get to keep your reunion scene. In the 'missing' scenario she could just have been with the other humans for that whole time, maybe becoming their leader and on her own(unseen) hero's journey to have her universe? Or if you do the died in childbirth thing, then it could be mom's double on the ship (maybe she lost dad and lynn in her world and that's what drove her to discover the 'dimensional drive' that powers their ships).

Ok I think the stream of consciousness is receding. This is what you get for asking a trekster a scifi-ish question

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

I'm actually about to put the whole film online. I was waiting to hear from all my festival submissions.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Recommended reading: Writing Short Films by Linda Cowgill. She drives home the point that structure for a short is really different from how a feature can be structured. Certain elements need to happen or be revealed right away - there's no time for exploring. Very helpful book!

I'll have to check that out. I think the 30 minute length like Wheat's film (and my last one) is the minimum length for a fully realized narrative. Festival shorts, 12 to 15 minutes have to be structure like a "joke" IMO, a set up and a punchline.

 

[wheatgrinder]

About Mom, yes shes gone.. and sister too.

New opening scene to elicit sympathy is Dad and Lynn leaving moms graveside (not funeral, just the yearly visit. So no big cast of nicely dressed folks, just dad and daughter by a grave stone..) They drive home. Sister was there to show the connection between the space craft and folks going up in flames before they die but now, that will just be part of the news story that comes on TV.. That way I can get right into the new world in two or three scenes. This does improve father daughter bond, and sort of isolates them from the rest of the world. .. other changes to compress and focus.

Oh, and here is a hint about the "aliens" purpose. They call them selves the "archivers"