Thoughts on my logline

[andy]

Hey everybody,

First, I just wanted to say that I joined this forum because I have never seen such a group of helpful and friendly people gathered online and I had to be a part of it. I've taken screenwriting classes and done some reading, but over the last few days of reading these forums, I feel like I have learned so much more.

So in short, thanks for being here and making this a great resource for everyone.

I'm currently developing an idea for a film that I hope to shoot next Fall. I thought I'd share the logline I have to get some feedback.

"On Halloween, a child’s imagination takes him and his brother far from their night of Trick-or-Treating."

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

 

[VPTurner]

It's a little vague. Try this exercise (with credit to Karl Iglesias):

(Title) is a (genre) about a (description of hero) who, after (inciting incident), wants to (outer goal) by (plan of action). This becomes increasingly difficult because (obstacles and complications).

Or...

(Title) is a (genre) about a (description of hero) who must (outer goal) or else (dire things will happen).

Examples:

(Rain Man) is a (drama) about a (slick, angry salesman) who, after ( his father dies), wants to (get his inheritance) by (manipulating his brother). This becomes increasingly difficult because (his brother is autistic).

(E.T. The Extra Terrestrial) is a (fantasy) about a (lonely boy who befriends a stranded alien, and) who must (help him get back home) or else (the alien will die).

And you're welcome.

 

[andy]

Thanks, that will definitely help.

My story is just starting to come together. I basically have an idea of what I want to accomplish along with a rough outline for a beginning, middle, and end, so as I start to fill in the details, that will help a lot.

 

[Padnar]

It's a little vague. Try this exercise (with credit to Karl Iglesias):

(Title) is a (genre) about a (description of hero) who, after (inciting incident), wants to (outer goal) by (plan of action). This becomes increasingly difficult because (obstacles and complications).

Or...

(Title) is a (genre) about a (description of hero) who must (outer goal) or else (dire things will happen).

Examples:

(Rain Man) is a (drama) about a (slick, angry salesman) who, after ( his father dies), wants to (get his inheritance) by (manipulating his brother). This becomes increasingly difficult because (his brother is autistic).

(E.T. The Extra Terrestrial) is a (fantasy) about a (lonely boy who befriends a stranded alien, and) who must (help him get back home) or else (the alien will die).

And you're welcome.

Awesome tips
padma

 

[Tara Tusher]

Wow, that's a really helpful formula. Thanks guys!
I was going to say to make sure to include the hero's flaw, the goal and what the stakes are.....but the exercise above is so much better. I'm excited to try this on my scripts.

 

[Flicker Pictures]

This podcast is worth a listen, while you do the dishes or brush the cat. : ) Well, I found it useful.

http://www.jeffreyborrowdale.com/audio/YSM_2009-08-19_Logline_Lecture.mp3

 

[insert_cliche_here]

Haha, this answered my question before it came time for me to ask it. Yes!

 

[Cracker Funk]

As far as I can see, a logline has two reasons for existence. Reason #1 is a sales tool. But you're not trying to sell your script, so we can kick that reason right square in the nuts.

Reason #2 is that it's just a solid organizational tool. You need to be able to tell me what the entire movie is about, in one sentence. If you write an essay, you need a thesis statement. The logline is your thesis statement for the movie. What is the whole damn thing about?

VPTurner's advice above is very good. I'd heed that, first and foremost.

 

[Kosh]

Well put VPTurner, I am a fan of Mr. Iglesias too.

CFunk, you're right about loglines serving as one type of org tool. But why, especially in this particular instance, kick the sales tool part square in the nuts? The main reason for a logline is to sell your idea. It's one thing to sell it to someone who will pay cash for it, but there's that other sale that takes place more often than the cash transaction - the one where you tell anyone (who is willing to give you any decent portion of their personal time) about your story idea. It's the ultimate answer to the question "say, I heard you were writing a script, what's it about?" Try answering that question in a precise and timely manner without a decent logline and watch the life drain out of the questioner's eyes. If they are brutally honest they will attack your idea from the get go - a confidence killer for most young writers, like moi. If they are friends and family they will lie to you about "how they totally get" your idea and what's worse you'll know they are lying - yet another death knell for another young idea. Cash or not, as writers it is most beneficial to know how to pitch your idea, story and/or script. A solid logline does not a complete pitch make, but goes far to getting you on your way.

 

[Adeimantus]

I don't know if anybody's read these articles by screenwriter Terry Rossio, but they're gold, in my opinion. Yes, they're a bit dated, but the advice is still good. I think there's about 40 or 50 articles. Near the bottom of each article is a "next" button you can click to go the next read.

The first two "A Foot in the Door," and "Strange Attractor" are germane to this discussion:

http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp01.A.Foot.in.the.Door.html

http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp02.Strange.Attractor.html

Taken together they are a pretty good general introduction to screenwriting and the trade.

Oh, and they're free. You don't have to buy the book.



-Charles

 

[Flicker Pictures]

Thanks for posting those links, Charles. I need to check them out. Terry Rossio is no slouch!

Chris Soth's podcast sums it up as:

A protagonist ... an action implying conflict/struggle ... with an antagonist ... in a setting/backdrop/world.

Using that "formula"...

On Halloween, a child’s imagination takes him and his brother far from their night of Trick-or-Treating.

Might become:

When two brothers are thrust into an imaginary world on Halloween night, they must (???) in order to save their ...??

or

To save their souls from eternal doom, two brothers must escape an imaginary world before midnight on All Hallow's Eve.

or simply

Two brothers must escape an imaginary world before midnight on Halloween.

Just riffing here. Hard to say since I don't really know your story, Andy, but just giving it a try here. Does your story have a protagonist?

 

[Cracker Funk]

Well put VPTurner, I am a fan of Mr. Iglesias too.

CFunk, you're right about loglines serving as one type of org tool. But why, especially in this particular instance, kick the sales tool part square in the nuts? The main reason for a logline is to sell your idea. It's one thing to sell it to someone who will pay cash for it, but there's that other sale that takes place more often than the cash transaction - the one where you tell anyone (who is willing to give you any decent portion of their personal time) about your story idea. It's the ultimate answer to the question "say, I heard you were writing a script, what's it about?" Try answering that question in a precise and timely manner without a decent logline and watch the life drain out of the questioner's eyes. If they are brutally honest they will attack your idea from the get go - a confidence killer for most young writers, like moi. If they are friends and family they will lie to you about "how they totally get" your idea and what's worse you'll know they are lying - yet another death knell for another young idea. Cash or not, as writers it is most beneficial to know how to pitch your idea, story and/or script. A solid logline does not a complete pitch make, but goes far to getting you on your way.

Good point. I guess I never thought of it that way, cuz whenever I'm selling my idea to friends/family/random-strangers-at-the-bar-I-work-at, I rarely use a logline. If they've got time, I'll give them a quick synopsis. If brevity is a concern, I try to describe the feel of the movie, not so much the plot.

"Antihero" is a superhero movie, of sorts, except our hero only has a mild psychic ability. Mostly, though, it's a raunchy-comedy.

That would make a horrible logline, but it works incredibly well in selling my movie to whomever I might be speaking to, at the moment.

I guess it depends on the movie. Some movies are sold best by describing the plot, so in that case -- logline.

 

[jeremy]

There's a podcast on itunes called On The Page hosted by script consultant Pilar Alisandra. The podcast has 2 entire episodes dedicated to the subject of loglines and had a number of solid tips and insights. I keep both episodes on my iphone and listen to them before I start a logline strategy session.

 

[polfilmblog]

""On Halloween, a child’s imagination takes him and his brother far from their night of Trick-or-Treating.""

Seems like half a logline.

I don't even get the genre from that.

They go to wizard school?

The fight the Soviets?

They're kidnapped by a pedophile?

They take drugs and get transported to the 1960s?

 

[andy]

Thanks guys. Some really great feedback here, can't wait to start going through the suggested links and podcasts.

When two brothers are thrust into an imaginary world on Halloween night, they must (???) in order to save their ...??

or

To save their souls from eternal doom, two brothers must escape an imaginary world before midnight on All Hallow's Eve.

or simply

Two brothers must escape an imaginary world before midnight on Halloween.

Just riffing here. Hard to say since I don't really know your story, Andy, but just giving it a try here. Does your story have a protagonist?

That's really great stuff. Just the vibe I'm going for in my story. I do have a protagonist, but I'm still working on filling in the details. I have an idea of what I want to happen, but I need to figure out a reasonable why and the path I'm going to take to get there. I'm still at the phase where I'm trying to get all my ideas down on paper and organize them.

I started thinking about the logline, as I felt like it's a good exercise to condensing and demonstrating a good understand of my whole story and the theme of the film.

""On Halloween, a child’s imagination takes him and his brother far from their night of Trick-or-Treating.""

Seems like half a logline.

I don't even get the genre from that.

They go to wizard school?

The fight the Soviets?

They're kidnapped by a pedophile?

They take drugs and get transported to the 1960s?

I hear you, and all the advice in the thread is noted. But I feel like it's kind of obvious what type of movie this is. I specifically omitted words like "adventure" as it's way too on the nose. Including more specific story elements should improve it, but I think kids letting their imagination get the best of them on Halloween speaks for itself to some degree.

------

Here's an updated version: On Halloween, two brothers find themselves deep in an imaginary world that they must escape from and make it home before bedtime.

 

[VPTurner]

...Including more specific story elements should improve it, but I think kids letting their imagination get the best of them on Halloween speaks for itself to some degree.

------

Here's an updated version: On Halloween, two brothers find themselves deep in an imaginary world that they must escape from and make it home before bedtime.

Actually, not really. Nothing "speaks for itself". Kids on Halloween letting their imagination run wild could mean anything from killing one's sister and growing up to be a serial killer (John Carpenter's Halloween) to finding a lost pirate ship or falling down a rabbit hole. Still vague. Doesn't really say what or who the story is about. Who's the lead? Are both brothers equal in focus? Are they twins?

Just like in the example above, what's more interesting, "two brothers", or "a slick, angry salesman and his autistic brother"?

Why must they escape? Are they going to die? Are they going to get in trouble? Why should I care? What's at stake? They go hungry or get grounded? Not real compelling. You must find a hook. So far, there is no compelling hook and there are no characters of unique interest.

 

[directorik]

Here's an updated version: On Halloween, two brothers find themselves deep in an imaginary world that they must escape from and make it home before bedtime.

That one is better, andy.

In addition to what VP has already said, I think “find themselves”
to be too passive. Is there any way you can tell us how they get
into this imaginary world in a couple of words? Do they take a
risk? Is it some curse? Are they hit on the head?

For example: Dorothy doesn’t find herself in an imaginary world,
she is thrown into an imaginary world by a tornado.

I really like the "ticking clock" - make it home before bedtime.

 

[andy]

Actually, not really. Nothing "speaks for itself". Kids on Halloween letting their imagination run wild could mean anything from killing one's sister and growing up to be a serial killer (John Carpenter's Halloween) to finding a lost pirate ship or falling down a rabbit hole. Still vague. Doesn't really say what or who the story is about. Who's the lead? Are both brothers equal in focus? Are they twins?

Just like in the example above, what's more interesting, "two brothers", or "a slick, angry salesman and his autistic brother"?

Why must they escape? Are they going to die? Are they going to get in trouble? Why should I care? What's at stake? They go hungry or get grounded? Not real compelling. You must find a hook. So far, there is no compelling hook and there are no characters of unique interest.

Point taken. I guess I just meant that I was just trying to avoid being too direct, but in turn wound up too vague (partially because the story isn't fully developed).

I was thinking, more as the director and not the writer, that exploring the imaginary world was a hook, but clearly it's not. I'll work on that.

Thanks again for your feedback.

That one is better, andy.

In addition to what VP has already said, I think “find themselves”
to be too passive. Is there any way you can tell us how they get
into this imaginary world in a couple of words? Do they take a
risk? Is it some curse? Are they hit on the head?

For example: Dorothy doesn’t find herself in an imaginary world,
she is thrown into an imaginary world by a tornado.

I really like the "ticking clock" - make it home before bedtime.

I'm not trying to go too crazy on the "why/how they ended up there" - my thought is more of a curiosity killed the cat type story.

I'm guessing that from the feedback that an idea such as that is not enough of a hook. I guess I'll just have to do some more brainstorming and determine how far I want to shift my story. I'm not trying to write a script with the intention of selling it - I'm making this for me - but at the same time I want it to be as tight and compelling as possible.

Luckily I have plenty of time to continue working.

Third shot: [title] is the tale of a curious young boy and his older brother who are swept away into an imaginary world on Halloween that they must escape before bedtime or risk being trapped by their wildest dreams.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Here's my new one. Didn't do them for my first two films.

Into the Night is a horror film about a young prostitute who, after witnessing the death of a john, wants to discover why her strange dreams have begun to correspond with real murders. Her quest becomes increasingly difficult as she becomes enmeshed with a strange cult, and her own twisted past is revealed to her.