The nuance of Sound Design

[jax_rox]

This is a pretty great article that backs up everything APE says about Sound Design, and might get you thinking creatively about it:

http://www.theguardian.com/film/201...ions-roaring-art-of-sound-in-movies?CMP=fb_gu

Some highlights:

His expertise, fittingly, is what can’t be seen – sound, yes, but also everything else that sound is to the human mind: the way we orient ourselves in relation to spaces, to time, to each other; the way we communicate when language fails; the way our ears know, precognitively, when the dark room has someone lurking in it or when a stranger will be kind. He orchestrates the levels of human perception that most people either fail to examine or lack the ability to notice at all. His job is to make you feel things without ever knowing he was there.

Consider the scene at the end of No Country For Old Men when Javier Bardem’s character has a car accident. After the crunch of impact, there are a few moments of what might be mistaken for stillness. The two cars rest smoking and crumpled in the middle of a suburban intersection. Nothing moves – but the soundscape is deceptively layered. There is the sound of engines hissing and crackling, which have been mixed to seem as near to the ear as the camera was to the cars; there is a mostly unnoticeable rustle of leaves in the trees; periodically, so faintly that almost no one would register it consciously, there is the sound of a car rolling through an intersection a block or two over, off camera; a dog barks somewhere far away. The faint sound of a breeze was taken from ambient sounds on a street like the one depicted in the scene. When Javier Bardem shoves open the car door, you hear the door handle stick for a moment before it releases. There are three distinct sounds of broken glass tinkling to the pavement from the shattered window, a small handful of thunks as he falls sideways to the ground, his laboured breathing, the chug of his boot heel finally connecting with the asphalt – even the pads of his fingers as they scrabble along the top of the window. None of these sounds are there because some microphone picked them up. They’re there because Lievsay chose them and put them there, as he did for every other sound in the film. The moment lasts about 20 seconds. No Country For Old Men is 123 minutes long.

You need the ability not only to hear with an almost superhuman acuity but also the technical proficiency and Job-like patience to spend hours getting the sound of a kettle’s hiss exactly the right length as well as the right pitch – and not only the right pitch but the right pitch considering that the camera pans during the shot, which means that the viewer’s ear will subconsciously anticipate hearing a maddeningly subtle (but critical) Doppler effect, which means that the tone the kettle makes as it boils needs to shift downward at precisely the interval that a real kettle’s hiss would if you happened to walk by at that speed.

The Coen brothers are treasured by Lievsay’s tribe, in part because they begin sound design unusually early in the process – often while still writing and shooting. “The way they work is the dream,” C5’s dialogue editor, Eliza Paley, told me. “They understand that sound is also storytelling.”

It becomes clear, in moments like these, exactly how unconscious the experience of sound is, how neatly it skirts our higher reasoning to make us feel. It does not matter if you know the violence is just pretend – make the gunshot noise loud and accurate enough and your body will believe it is real. For this reason, sound is one of the most visceral, subtle tools available to filmmakers. No need to wait to see the limp of the boy who has fallen off his bicycle to know that his ankle is broken – a small crunching noise added to his landing will make a viewer cringe in empathy.

 

[sfoster]

So what are these aspects of sound that I experience at home called, since that isn't sound design.

There must be another name for it. That's the part of sound that I'm interested in, the stuff I have actually experienced in the 2000+ movies I've watched

 

[trueindie]

First, please let me apologize for the tone of my comment. I was just expressing a general frustration with filmmakers, and not audio guys in particular. I'm sorry.

Is the way your audience "sees" and "experiences" your scenes not important? If not, then what difference do cameras, lenses or any other film making equipment or crafts make? In my post above, I specifically stated "Getting a cinematic (or any other "look") is not just about what camera, camera settings, lighting or grading one employs, it's just as much about the sound design!!":- I meant this literally. I didn't say sound design was more important than everything else, I said it was just as important. The problem, as I tried to explain, is that for most indie filmmakers there is no balance because there commonly is NO sound design. How many filmmakers would try and make a film with zero thought/no cinematography?

Of course I want my film to look cinematic. But I make so many compromises in any shoot. Sound is just one of the compromises. If I don't have time and focus pulling is proving to be tricky, then I switch to a larger depth of field just so I can keep things in focus more easily, even though it will be less cinematic.

But to your point, you're absolutely correct. I'm talking about sound, and you're talking about sound design, which basically means that I don't even think about sound design. And you're right. I admitted as much in a previous thread, where I posted my short, saying that was the only time I thought about the sound design. I know I should change this behavior, and am actually going to actively try to do that in my next film. But I've never met a sound designer. I'd never thought about sound design until you mentioned it on this forum. I'd heard about it. But I'd never thought about it. I hope to change that.

But my frustration was the overall feeling I got the last time I asked for sound design advice for a restaurant scene. The response was that without knowing more about the story it wouldn't be possible to advise on sound design properly, which I agree is a legit point of view. But why we can't have a general discussion on how to improve the restaurant scene, I cannot understand. Why can't somebody say "okay, I can't give you proper advice without knowing the full story, context, etc., but you can at least try to have a restaurant ambience, have some glass clinks, plate/spoon clinks, make sure you use reverb on the clinks. Add a coffee machine if you want and a couple of car horns. And make sure the ambience to dialog volume/db ratio is such and such...." That's all I really wanted. But everybody exploded on me like I had offended every sound person alive by violating some religious tradition, simply by asking why I couldn't have some advice without everybody knowing the entire context. At least that's what it felt like to me at the time. Why can't we have a discussion on sound design at an amateur level? At a scene by scene level? Why not? I don't even think about sound design, and I'm trying. Expecting me to understand the subliminal effect of the distant bark of a dog is just beyond reason I think, when I don't know the first thing about sound design.

I'm just asking you guys to come down to our level. Begin advising at a scene level, and we'll start to get the picture. Otherwise it seems too esoteric, too complicated, too much effort for gains, that at least I, don't fully understand at this time.

I hope I was able to make my case a bit better this time.

Cheers,
Aveek

 

[trueindie]

Okay, I don't agree with Sfoster, but part of the energy of his comments is a reaction. He's reacting to your positions. We all know that not everyone who watches a film watches it in a 5.1 environment. More and more people watch movies on their tablets and their laptops. What he's really asking is why sound design is as important to those people as people who watch the movie in theaters or in their home theaters. I know both kinds of people. Some people need perfect sound and HD. And there are plenty of people who can't tell the difference, one way or the other. It doesn't make sound design irrelevant, at least not for a complete appreciation of the film, but why can't we admit that there's a segment of the population to whom it doesn't matter as much, or at least they don't know if it matters. But if we want to get SFoster on board, so he can put more effort on sound, maybe the correct thing to say is "okay, you're correct, sound design is not important to everyone, but proper sound, and good sound design, is important to anyone,... anyone... with the potential to buy your film. They care about sound quality, sound design, sound compliance, sound everything. So whether we like it or not, whether the audience craves it or not, it's a necessary thing if we want to keep important people happy.

Wouldn't that be a more practical approach to correct his position on sound? We want everybody on board on sound don't we? Why not cajole him into seeing what he better do, sooner or later.

 

[jax_rox]

Why can't somebody say "okay, I can't give you proper advice without knowing the full story, context, etc., but you can at least try to have a restaurant ambience, have some glass clinks, plate/spoon clinks, make sure you use reverb on the clinks. Add a coffee machine if you want and a couple of car horns. And make sure the ambience to dialog volume/db ratio is such and such...." That's all I really wanted.

I imagine it's like asking a good Production Designer 'what should I put into my restaurant scene?'
A newbie is going to say: 'well, it's a restaurant - you'll need knives, forks, maybe spoons, plates, glasses, maybe an oven and a coffee machine'

A good Production Designer is going to say 'what type of restaurant? When is the movie set? When was the restaurant built? How does this scene play within the scenes around it? What's the overall story line? Who is the main character, what's their motivations, where do they come from etc etc etc'

Because Production Design is not just about having forks in a restaurant scene (just as Sound Design is not just about having the sound of those forks). THe Production Design is about how old the forks are, that they're a little bit rusty because the restaurant was built 150 years ago, and the owners are only just scraping by, and so don't have the money to go and buy new forks all the time. It's the fact that all the tablecloths are brown, and the overall colour palette of the restaurant is browns, yellows and reds. The wallpaper is peeling off the walls, showing cracks behind. The kitchen has a faint tinge of brown to it - more rust from not being able to afford upgrades. It's an italian restaurant, so any spare mantlepiece has pictures on it of the family of the owner.

All of this creates the feeling that this place is old, run-down, cheap food that doesn't get many customers through its doors.

The main character looks incredibly out of place in his $5k Armani suit, as he eats food out of a bowl that once was white, but is now yellowed, and has floral patterns around the rim.

This obviously isn't where he usually frequents.

That tells an entire story, purely with Production Design. And (I imagine, but APE can certainly disagree with me), it's the same with Sound Design. All of these elements combine to aid t he story you want to tell - and as a Director, you need to be thinking of all of them. Your character needs a backpack to travel with. But the type of backpack can say a lot about the character. Is it worn, frayed, obviously 50+ years old? Or is it a new backpack?

If you ask that same Production Designer 'what are some simple things I can do to help my low budget film?' They'll say 'hire a great, or an up-and-coming Production Designer. Short of that, really think about how the Production Design, of everything, can help tell your story'

You can't really give 'general rules or examples' or simple things - because there aren't really any. It might seem silly, but there's a lot more to a restaurant scene to a professional, even as simple as you can make it, than just whether or not to put forks or put the sound of forks into it. It's so much more, it's so much more nuanced, and it honestly depends on each project. At least - that's my understanding.

maybe the correct thing to say is "okay, you're correct, sound design is not important to everyone, but proper sound, and good sound design, is important to anyone,... anyone... with the potential to buy your film.

Sound design is important to everyone, it's just that most people don't realise that everything they're hearing (including the things they're not consciously hearing, but are still experiencing) has been scrupulously designed to nth degree.

 

[sfoster]

Sound design is important to everyone

How can it possibly be important to me if I've never experienced it?
This makes no sense. With my web series none of my audience will experience it either.

For me it is non-existential and irrelevant.

 

[trueindie]

I imagine it's like asking a good Production Designer 'what should I put into my restaurant scene?'
A newbie is going to say: 'well, it's a restaurant - you'll need knives, forks, maybe spoons, plates, glasses, maybe an oven and a coffee machine'

A good Production Designer is going to say 'what type of restaurant? When is the movie set? When was the restaurant built? How does this scene play within the scenes around it? What's the overall story line? Who is the main character, what's their motivations, where do they come from etc etc etc'

You may think this is the difference between a newbie and an experienced production designer. I'd suggest it's the difference between a production designer without a budget and another with one.

Who exactly do you think you're providing this brilliant piece of advice about what production design is, to? My entire budget was CAD 30,000. That's less than a fart of what I need for proper "sound design."

Please, please, please, spare me the lecture on what is "sound design" and "production design" and "set design" and "lighting design" and good writing, and whatever design. You're talking to someone who shot a film without a wardrobe department. I can't afford your "advice." Your advice is actually useless to me as I can't do anything about it.

I'm sure you're a professional, and you think like one. I'm an amateur. Advise me as an amateur, or don't. Because I can't use your brilliant advice.

You can't really give 'general rules or examples' or simple things - because there aren't really any.

Rubbish! And I'm not going to go into it further.


Cheers

 

[trueindie]

Sound design is important to everyone, it's just that most people don't realise that everything they're hearing (including the things they're not consciously hearing, but are still experiencing) has been scrupulously designed to nth degree.

The idea that sound design or proper lighting for that matter, affects someone watching a movie on his laptop the same way it affects a person watching it in a proper visual and listening environment, is patently absurd. It's out of touch with reality.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Just to continue with Jax...

In the rundown Italian restaurant scenario the sounds would, of course, reflect the visual cues. But thinking about the sound design during the preproduction offers opportunities. What if we hear a distant toilet flush and a few seconds later a pipe in the restaurant rattles loudly? It works in the context of almost any genre, but more importantly you need to allow for the interruption during the dialog and the shooting of the scene; you need to decide how long and loud the interruption, your actors need to react as well. (B-roll?) When it gets to audio post you would choose very different sounds depending upon genre, but the mood of the scene and the cinematography will also have a large influence upon sound choices. In the case of the pipe - screechy/rusty, or shivering, or bang-bang-bong? A combination thereof? That's just one example of the choices a sound editor/designer makes - with the input of the director, as always. But if you don't plan for this during preproduction the rattling pipe just becomes another vague annoying sound as part of the background ambience.

The sound designers job is creating a consistent, believable sonic world for the characters to inhabit. When you are doing the sound design of an entire film the individual sounds used in individual moments must form a cohesive whole with the other sounds in the scene, and the sonic quality of each scene must work in context with the rest of the project.

I guess a lot of folks don't experience sound design unless they go to a movie theater, and these days the sound systems in a lot of theaters are in appalling shape. "Saving Private Ryan" on a great surround system is terrifying and "Gravity" in Dolby Atmos is stunning. You'll finally get some idea of what sound design can really accomplish.

 

[trueindie]

The sound designers job is creating a consistent, believable sonic world for the characters to inhabit. When you are doing the sound design of an entire film the individual sounds used in individual moments must form a cohesive whole with the other sounds in the scene, and the sonic quality of each scene must work in context with the rest of the project.

I guess a lot of folks don't experience sound design unless they go to a movie theater, and these days the sound systems in a lot of theaters are in appalling shape. "Saving Private Ryan" on a great surround system is terrifying and "Gravity" in Dolby Atmos is stunning. You'll finally get some idea of what sound design can really accomplish.

I'm not arguing about the benefits of good sound design, or good production design. I'm talking to you about my movie. I'm talking about MY independent low budget movie. And you're talking to me about Gravity and Saving Private Ryan. How are the circumstances of those movies applicable to my situation? to my restaurant scene without production design and without sound design?

 

[FilmmakerJ]

How can it possibly be important to me if I've never experienced it?
This makes no sense. With my web series none of my audience will experience it either.

For me it is non-existential and irrelevant.

I think trying one single experiment with two different tests might change your mind.

First, put something in your DVD or Blu-ray player, like The Dark Knight, or Star Trek (2009), or something equally big, bold, and epic like those. Then, watch the entire movie with a blind-fold on, and see just how much of the plot, story, characters, and environments that you can discern from just the sound design alone. Because that is sound design's entire purpose: being able to tell the story without the visuals, and then sound so believable and so realistic, that you don't even know its there when the visuals are added to it. It might sound pointless to work so hard on something that no one, including you, apparently will never notice.

But then, at the same time, try to watch that same movie again, but instead with the sound turned completely off, and the subtitles turned on. Then try to see how effective the story is while being completely silent. Sure it's a lot like a book then: but I guarantee watching a movie with no sound at all is a pretty boring thing.

If you want another explanation/definition for sound design: sound design is part of what builds the mood of your film. If a horror movie didn't have sound design in it, then the film wouldn't be half as terrifying as it is: as long as it's a good horror movie. The bad ones usually aren't as clever with their soundtracks.

 

[sfoster]

Then, watch the entire movie with a blind-fold on, and see just how much of the plot, story, characters, and environments that you can discern from just the sound design alone.

This is confusing.

I was told that since I don't have good speakers I have never experienced sound design. This has been the basis of my last like 7 posts in this thread.

So therefore I would not be able to discern anything from the sound design due to my audio environment.

 

[FilmmakerJ]

This is confusing.

I was told that since I don't have good speakers I have never experienced sound design. This has been the basis of my last like 7 posts in this thread.

So therefore I would not be able to discern anything from the sound design due to my audio environment.

I'm pretty sure even if your speakers suck, you're gonna be able to tell where and when things are based on what sound does come out of them. Besides which, if you can still watch things just fine with your current speakers, and you haven't stopped watching stuff with them due to previous comments, I think my experiment is still doable.

It's still true that weak speakers will not be able to represent the full fidelity (or audible detail) of a soundtrack as well as better speakers would. But the speakers that I use aren't anything to write home about and they do just fine.

People who do sound design will tell you all of the time that speakers that aren't of a certain caliber won't be able to give you a great experience. But considering that almost everyone lives with pretty average speakers, this argument doesn't matter much to the general viewing public. The argument that sound design is important still stands, but the argument that you need amazing speakers to appreciate it is not really true. You can appreciate it more with better speakers. But smaller or weaker speakers won't make you automatically appreciate it less.

 

[sfoster]

You can appreciate it more with better speakers. But smaller or weaker speakers won't make you automatically appreciate it less.

This is contrary to what I was told earlier, that I can't experience it at all.
Sound is important, sound effects are important, but sound design is apparently something different.

No one should think that I don't care about sound. Hell when I joined here july 2013 my very first thread and post was about sound and seeking advice.

But I shouldn't be expected to care about something that I or my target audience cannot experience.
Edit: Hey look at that I didn't even realize I've been here two years

 

[FilmmakerJ]

This is contrary to what I was told earlier, that I can't experience it at all.
Sound is important, sound effects are important, but sound design is apparently something different.

No one should think that I don't care about sound. Hell when I joined here july 2013 my very first thread and post was about sound and seeking advice.

But I shouldn't be expected to care about something that I or my target audience cannot experience.
Edit: Hey look at that I didn't even realize I've been here two years

Has no one been able to explain what sound design is yet, in this entire thread?

From what I've understood, sound design is a profession, it's an action, it's the process by which you "re-create" sounds in the real world, or you "create" brand-new sounds that don't exist in the real world, but are sounds that are important to expand upon the world that you have created in your film.

If you're movie takes place on an alien world, then everything from the animals, to the water (lakes, rivers, waterfalls), to the city streets, to the language, to the objects inside the houses, to even the wind itself have to be recorded from real sounds, mixed, remixed, warped, and altered in order to achieve the right sound for each object in each scene that is either making noise or is being touched by a character in order to make a noise.

Every room and every space on earth also has a certain sound always going on somewhere, at some audible level: called "Room-Tone." Because only if you're are in a sound-proof room deep inside a building can you truly experience a lack of all sound. So if an air-conditioner is running, or a fan is going, or a heater is churning, or cars are driving by in the distance, that all has to be recorded and mixed together to be added into the background of all modern motion pictures, depending on the environment of each scene.

If I'm starting to get too complex here, then I will just say this. Sound design is what you do when a "real-world" sound isn't powerful or impactful enough to help tell your story. Or, it's what you do if a sound that you need can't be used from your production sound (in case the location was too noisy or the production sound was unusable): and so you must re-build that sound from scratch. It's also what you do if a sound you need doesn't exist, or it's what you do if the sound in a scene doesn't reflect the current mind-set of your characters. For instance, what if your main character is lost in thought? Should all of the sound around him sound crystal clear, or should it sound muffled, distant, incomprehensible, to reflect how the character is feeling at that moment?

Sound design is just another tool that you use, much like your choice of lens, your choice of lighting, or your choice of music. They are all meant to go hand in hand.

One of the best examples of how sound design can really make an impact, and one of the easiest to notice, is in Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones has a pistol that he shoots all of the bad-guys with in Marian's tavern near the beginning of the film. But instead of just re-recording a regular pistol sound, or even the exact sound that that pistol makes, they used a shot-gun noise to give his gun some serious power and impact: that way every single shot felt like an explosion, which added to the adrenaline of the scene, and every scene that he shoots off his gun in.

P.S.
The notion that you and your target audience can't experience sound design is ludicrous. If the average viewer couldn't experience some aspect of sound design in almost every movie they watch, then sound designers would not be employed. You just don't need perfect speakers to appreciate it. However, you do need near-perfect speakers in order to do sound design "professionally," because that allows your sound mixes to sound amazing on any level of speaker quality, and there will always be another layer of sound to experience the better your speakers are.

But if you're concerned about doing sound design with your current speakers, then I would suggest that you not be the person who does the sound design: that's what a dedicated sound designer is for. And they'd be able to talk with you more carefully about what sound design can do for your films, even if you don't realize right now what it really can do to effect how your audience perceives the stories you are telling.

 

[Guanto]

Has no one been able to explain what sound design is yet, in this entire thread?

Well to be honest I believe I did in droves, you've even echoed some of my sentiments almost to a tee.

Not that I'd ever frown upon any bolstering or even redundancy on the matter, in fact I encourage it. Since I have a slant towards audio in general, I never realized until coming to this forum that sound design is indeed the red headed step-child of filmmaking. However it does align perfectly with the sheer number of sheer horrible audio I catch around the interwebs on a daily... not sure why I am surprised.

 

[jax_rox]

I'm sure you're a professional, and you think like one. I'm an amateur. Advise me as an amateur, or don't. Because I can't use your brilliant advice.

I can't speak to APE - my specialty is Cinematography.. But if I liken it to lighting - to me, it's kinda like asking a professional artist 'can you give me some general, non-specific tips on how to make my drawings look better?'

The first thing he says will be 'What are you drawing?'

It seems to me that you think his question is ridiculous - does he really need to know what I'm drawing to be able to give me any tips??!!

You can either walk away and say 'well it doesn't matter - I could be drawing anything, isn't there some simple ways that I can effect a viewer with drawings no matter what I draw?'

You could say 'let's say it's a dog'

To which he'll reply 'what kind of dog?'

If you said to me 'okay I get that lighting is really important in my film, but what can I do with my low budget to light my scenes better?'
I can only respond with: well, it depends on the scene. Is it a bright, sunny day? Is it a dark, moody bar? What mood/feelings do you want to evoke? How could I possibly advise if I didn't have all the information?

The film crafts are, in general, not overly complex - but they're not a simple 'paint-by-numbers' technique either. The 'why' is often just as important as the 'what'. In every well-lit film you've watched, there's all sorts of lamps and light augmenting equipment used for every shot. But every light source is motivated in some way. There may not be a single light on the ceiling of the location (and on sets, there may not be a ceiling at all). But the film lights are motivated as an overhead light. And you believe it. And it has an effect on you. Someone being only backlit will have a different effect on audience to someone being front-lit. Or side-lit. Using a fill light or not using a fill light - they all have different effects on the viewer. If I told you to only backlight your subject and put them into silhouette - it might end up being a nice shot, but if your movie is a romantic comedy, it's possible that that shot will be entirely out of place, despite the fact that it might look nice.

If a Producer drove me to a soundstage, walked me over to a blank set and said 'it will be a restaurant eventually. Go ahead and light it. Seeya in an hour' the first thing I would do would be to try and get some context for the scene, an idea of the film, and talk to the Director about what he wants, his vision for the scene, hopefully talk to the Production Designer about what the set will actually look like, where things will be placed, talk to the first AD about the blocking of the scene and where the actors will be...

How can I possibly light a blank set if all I know is that it's a restaurant?

The idea that sound design or proper lighting for that matter, affects someone watching a movie on his laptop the same way it affects a person watching it in a proper visual and listening environment, is patently absurd. It's out of touch with reality.

It may not affect someone the same way, but it still has an effect. The sound design still exists if that person is watching the movie on a laptop, and as far as I'm aware is often/always re-mixed for home delivery, as home sound systems are usually very different to theatre sound systems.

If someone watches True Detective on their iPhone, the cinematography is still going to affect them in some way. IT may not be as intense as watching it on a 30' screen...

You're not trying to tell me that there's no difference in the effect of the cinematography between someone watching True Detective on their iPhone, and a video they shot on their iPhone of their friends mucking around...?

 

[Guanto]

The idea that sound design or proper lighting for that matter, affects someone watching a movie on his laptop the same way it affects a person watching it in a proper visual and listening environment, is patently absurd. It's out of touch with reality.

While I admittedly can't be certain if it affects me differently, I guarantee I recognize improper (usually simply lack of) sound design and lighting on a regular basis on my laptop... and then promptly click off. Rampant.

Remember bad sound design can be as simple as the music being 100X louder than the dialog. Riding the volume on lesser offerings is something we all (sadly) constantly do, "in the same way", on all our viewing devices.

improper lighting on the other hand, well that's just evident on anything. Filmmakers can spot it a mile away and may or may not call you out on it, but I know I know who cares. However viewers "sense" it... and while they can't articulate what is annoying them with any pedigree, they do tend to label these sorts of things as 'not good' or 'homemade'. And they do it often, because there are ten-thousand other indie-esque things to click on that inevitably will have more whole-hearted attempts at lighting and sound.

To stick with the cited examples, sound design and lighting are some of the few precious foundational story telling devices in the moving picture medium that the indie filmmaker can control and can show a little love and attention too, to at least some degree of competency depending on the creators will or desire of "perceived" production value in their final product. Jumping out of helicopters and running from T-rex is something we cannot.

One could approach a no budget project like a pile of sand on the beach. You have a bucket for Audio and a bucket for Video. How much "quality" sand can you confidently shovel into each all by yourself with your strengths/loves? If one of the bucket fills up far more than the other then the idea, for a well rounded as good as you can get it project (if that is indeed an intended goal), is to get an equivalent amount of sand in the other bucket in anyway you can... cousin Sal, late nights with tutorials or a portion of next years tax return. Depending of course on ones level of care for their art, the level one wants to at least strive to operate at by any means within their power.

I wrote/illustrated a children's book. I can't paint/color (in fact i hate it) so it sits on my shelf until i have the will, time or money to fulfill that void. I've developed a table top game, printed and manufactured the cards, tiles and rules... but I have no way to sculpt or manufacture the miniatures. I don't have the talent or resources to complete these aspects of my project that are just as important to my overall vision as the elements I could knock out of the park. It sits on the shelf next to my children's book. Time and money is a big factor in why these things will never see the light of day sure, but not as big as my refusal to release any of these works willingly/knowingly in a half-baked state. I'd rather let them rot. First impression phobia? Perfectionist? Idiot? I dunno... but there is just no other way to approach these very personal projects of mine in my brain if not to see them fully realized to their fullest potential. I may be alone in this mentality, but doing these things to the best of my (or others) ability is what I signed up for when talking this plunge.

 

[soundslikejoe]

Has no one been able to explain what sound design is yet, in this entire thread?

Yes... that is a problem. Let's be very precise. There was no "Sound Design" role in traditional film titles. The problem is that this term is used in dozens of ambiguous ways. Some people will even mistakenly lump music into the "sound design" category.

The truth.... a film has a "soundtrack" which is all of the sound in the film. Music, diagetic, non-diagetic sounds are all apart of this soundtrack.... There are typically dozens or even hundreds of people responsible for making the sound in film.

Boom Op, Sound Mixer, Supervising Sound Editor, Dialog Editor, Foley Editor, Foley Walker, ADR Editor, Music Composer/Dept, Music Editor, Re-Recording Mixer

Traditionally there was NO "Sound Designer" credits until Walter Murich and Ben Burt. They were responsible for creating "soundscapes" or special effects in Apocolypse Now and Star Wars.... Walter was the first to receive the credit, but Burt made it famous.

Since then people have been murky about the role of a "Sound Designer." It's my opinion that literal "sound design" is the equivalent of sound effects creations.... not just booms or crashes... but any effect, even subtle things. Where foley work seeks to recreate diagetic sounds heard in the physical world seen on screen, the sound designer attempts to create effects which are hyper-real or non-existent. They don't handle dialog.... that's a dialog editor. They don't make walking sounds or fabric rustling or punch effects.... that's a foley artist. They don't mix or record on set. They don't work with music.

Sound Designers create things that are either special effects (lightsaber), textures or ambiances or montages of abstract sound (see Murch's design of the helicopter sound at the opening of Apocalypse Now).

That's as precise as you can be in a world that misappropriates the term to mean anything from music to dialog editing.

 

[Guanto]

That's as precise as you can be in a world that misappropriates the term to mean anything from music to dialog editing.

Or as imprecise as you misappropriated the definition and both points here.

Sound Design is all encompassing. The term was created for the growing breed of the Sound Editor "Plus". The mixing of the final stereo or 5.1 tracks that include all of the audio elements lays in their hands.

Yes tons of people have tons of roles in all of the pieces of sound leading up to that point, but the guy who developed some cool laser blast sfx, the guy who ran the ADR session, or the bass player for the song under the opening credits will not be the guy handling the final completed sound of the film, that would be the Sound Designer, especially if he had a hand in any other part of the sound components leading up to final mix. On an indie film these could all be the same guy, but the point is the last guy who touches the audio is the sound designer - he has to bring balance and harmony to all the different elements, dialog, foley, music, underscore into one unified and deliverable soundverse... not just a single sound effect.

Traditionally speaking of course. Research the Murch, he is thee Sound Designer and he is often all over dialog and music and everything else up to and including the final mix.

 

[soundslikejoe]

Sound Design is all encompassing - the mixing of the final stereo or 5.1 tracks that include all of the audio elements.

Yes tons of people have tons of roles in all of the pieces of sound leading up to that point, but the guy who developed some cool laser blast sfx, the guy who ran the ADR session, or the bass player for the song under the opening credits will not be the guy handling the final completed sound of the film, that would be the Sound Designer. Although on an indie film these could all be the same guy, but the point is the last guy who touches the audio is the sound designer - he has to bring balance and harmony to all the different elements, dialog, foley, music, underscore into one unified and deliverable soundverse.

Traditionally speaking of course. Research the Murch, he is all over dialog and music and everything else as Sound Designer.

This isn't based on any facts I've ever seen or read on the subject.... it sounds like your opinion. The role you describe is a blend of Supervising Sound Editor, Post Production Supervisor, and Re-Recording Mixer.

Sound Design is only all encompassing in your mind.... not in reality. Walter Murch is a "Re-Recording Mixer" who did such unique and creative things that Francis Copola created the credit of "Sound Designer" to reflect his creative development and use of sound for Apocalypse Now... the first film to use Sound Designer as a credit. If your assumption of the role were correct, there would have been "Sound Designers" credited on all of the films prior to that.... not true. The person responsible for mixing the film or as you say "the guy handling the final completed sound of the film" is s Re-Recording Mixer....