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Syncing Workflow

Okay, it's something that I never understood and that gives me serious itching when I read articles about.

I know the real way to do it is to use Timecode. As Guerilla filmmakers we don't have that so moving on.

The way I usually do it is to clap using hands or slate. Then I drag every production file (audio and video) in Premiere, go through every single file and relabel it in a clear way (scene, take).

Then I start the actual edit and when I decide on a take, I check if the matching audio is good. If yes, I use that take, if not, I look for another take or a way around. And ONLY THEN do I sync the files, manually by finding the clap on both files and while it's easy, it also feels stupid because after I've trimed everything to keep what I need, now I need to untrim to go back to the start of the file to find the clap and once I've linked audio and video, I retrim again and put it back into place.

It works but I feel stupid every time I do it. But I can't think of any other practical way. A better way to do it would be to sync the files before the editing, i.e. merging audio and video before bringing everything into the editing suite.


What's the professional way to do it (without Timecode) ?
 
with premiere ctrl+drag to replace clips in place you don't really need to sync sound first..

Syncing every take when you only use one or two in a scene is a bit of waste.

Edit your movie with the on camera sound.
Then sync the sound for each TAKE used in your edit in a new sequence. Create the sequence by dragging the source file onto the NEW SEQUENCE widget.
Sync your dual audio in the new sequence, sync the entire take making sure not to move the video from the START position. Depending on your order of actions during production you may have to fudge things around, but what ever happens, when your done syncing be SURE that the first frame of the new sequence is the first frame of the video track.

Now that you have a synced audio sequence, simply "alt+drag" the synced sequence ONTO each instance of the take in the edited sequence. This replace the un-synced clip from the footage with the same section of footage and audio from the synced sequence.

If you dont see wave forms, you may need to "render audio" of the edit sequence..
 
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Yeah, sync it first. Ideally you're keeping notes on set as to what are good takes. So then you only sync your good files.

Personally, I'd skip the extra labeling. I get by ok organizing folders based on shoot day and time so the files are in smaller batches. On a big project I'll go into scenes.

Now that I have plural eyes, I drag it all Ito a master sync timeline, export and XML and let it to it's magic then bring it back in, fix any errors(usually not many) and back that up. Them delete the original audio files from the track. Then it's easy to cut and paste footage from that sequence into sequences for each scene and I go to town and cut it up!
 
What's the professional way to do it (without Timecode) ?

Sorry to be a pedant but the professional way to do it is with timecode. Timecode exists because it is the most efficient (cheapest) professional method of recording production sound. Asking what is the professional way without timecode is a bit like asking what is the professional way to service a car with only two screwdrivers, two wrenches and a pair of pliers. The professional way also does not require the renaming of the files. The files should already be named correctly, the scene and take numbers already stored in each of the audio files' metadata and referenced in the sound log by the PSM. The professional way is to just sync the camera audio and provide a referenced AAF with a folder containing all the original production sound recordings to the audio post team.

It seems to me that you are actually asking what is the easiest way to sync production sound in Premiere, rather than what is the professional way to do it.

G
 
There ya go, you worked it out yourself.

The question is how to do that.

with premiere ctrl+drag to replace clips in place you don't really need to sync sound first..

Syncing every take when you only use one or two in a scene is a bit of waste.

Edit your movie with the on camera sound.
Then sync the sound for each TAKE used in your edit in a new sequence. Create the sequence by dragging the source file onto the NEW SEQUENCE widget.
Sync your dual audio in the new sequence, sync the entire take making sure not to move the video from the START position. Depending on your order of actions during production you may have to fudge things around, but what ever happens, when your done syncing be SURE that the first frame of the new sequence is the first frame of the video track.

Now that you have a synced audio sequence, simply "alt+drag" the synced sequence ONTO each instance of the take in the edited sequence. This replace the un-synced clip from the footage with the same section of footage and audio from the synced sequence.

If you dont see wave forms, you may need to "render audio" of the edit sequence..

So what happens here is that my final edit is a lot of sequences instead of videos and audio files, right ? That doesn't seem like the way to do it but it's still an improvement on my way.

Yeah, sync it first. Ideally you're keeping notes on set as to what are good takes. So then you only sync your good files.

Personally, I'd skip the extra labeling. I get by ok organizing folders based on shoot day and time so the files are in smaller batches. On a big project I'll go into scenes.

Now that I have plural eyes, I drag it all Ito a master sync timeline, export and XML and let it to it's magic then bring it back in, fix any errors(usually not many) and back that up. Them delete the original audio files from the track. Then it's easy to cut and paste footage from that sequence into sequences for each scene and I go to town and cut it up!

I've seen that way to do it with PuralEyes and tough it feels incredible for multicam work, I wasn't convinced of its use for film.

Basically it's the same thing than above but instead of having one Sequence for every file, you have one sequence for the whole files. And again, your final cut is made of sequences, not files.

Is there any way to have a final cut with the actual files not sequences ?

Sorry to be a pedant but the professional way to do it is with timecode.

You kindda are pedant in this case APE. Even if I wanted to, I can't use Timecode on my camera or my audio equipement. I'm not looking for the easiest way to do it because the easiest way to do it is to buy Timecode compliant equipement.

I'm looking for the smartest way to do it. But the way I see it, smartest and professional go hand in hand.
 
Yes, I use files instead of sequences. I like wheatgrinders approach too, it's smart. I use a master sync sequence that I copy and paste synced files from into a working sequence I typically title MAIN EDIT.
 
Oh, and plural eyes is just as great for single camera/single audio recorder setups as it is multi-camera setups. Just the other day I synced about 4 hours of footage and audio from a high school drama class production that they didn't use a single slate or clapper on. Whats more fun, some audio files kept recording when cameras cut and Visa versa. It took about 10 minutes to drop the footage in a timeline, export an XML, let plural eyes sync and then import the synced sequence. Maybe about 3% of the files didn't sync for whatever reason and I spent another few minutes cleaning it up.

When you count what your hourly rate is or how much your time is worth to you, pluraleyes is an excellent investment.
 
That's true. Most of what I shoot and work with is DSLR, but thee's some other stuff thrown in too. FS700, Blackmagic, P2 footage and all sorts of other stuff. They all do use a reference mic though. Even if your camera audio is terrible, always plug something in just for reference.
 
Yes, I use files instead of sequences. I like wheatgrinders approach too, it's smart. I use a master sync sequence that I copy and paste synced files from into a working sequence I typically title MAIN EDIT.


Seriously, that seems messy ... You just throw everything you need into the sequence and rearrange by cutting it together ?


That's not my approach. I use the "source monitor". And I can't think of a way of using it with synced files (not sequences).
 
You could render out each file separately after sync?

I think it's a lot less messy than trying to sync audio files to already cut video, and way less time consuming. Lets me see the big picture from the get go.

I do like Wheat's approach with nested sequences, but they don't play as well with After Effects. Especially multi-cam sequences. And 95% of what I edit goes to AE for color and effects then back to Premiere to marry to the audio (that went through a DAW) and export the final format.
 
Wheat's method is not using the nested thing.

He's editing with on the on-cam sound and using a trick at the end of the edit to add the synced audio. So he's using sequences but his final edit is a bunch of files, not sequences (unlike your technique). I'll try it next time.

I don't see the problem with this method and AE..
 
Maybe I'm not explaining right? My final edit is also a bunch of files. I use two sequences... Sometimes more but then it's by scene in a long production.

The problem comes in cutting and pasting sequences into after effects vs cutting and pasting footage. Have you tried it?
 
I'm not really sure what the issue is with spending a couple of days syncing at the start of the edit?

That way you know what you're cutting, essentially. You know that the 30 seconds of take 2 that you want to splice-in actually has awful audio, or the wrong line or whatever and you can either avoid it (perhaps take 3 is almost identical?) or decide to fix it with just the audio from a different take later. Kinda hard to be able to make those decisions (and others) without the sync'd audio. Shouldn't take that much longer than having to sync up the stuff you actually use anyway - and any extra time that it does take would be made up for in the fact that you'd have to replace in place every single clip at the end which would take just as much extra time, if not more.

Maybe it's just 'cos I'm used to cameras without guide tracks...

Also, APE, even when using timecode you often have to double-check and/or re-sync things manually anyway. Timecode makes things heaps easier, but it's not 100% perfect. That's why there's still a clap at the start of every take.

I've AC'd on docos where cam and sound were syncing simply via TOD timecode, with no slate at all. Luckily I was checking and re-syncing TC every hour or so to make sure there was no drift. Lot of trust put into your AC, was shot on S16mm, so there was no guide track to attempt to sync it up later if the TC did drift!
 
I'm not really sure what the issue is with spending a couple of days syncing at the start of the edit?

That's not the issue. I feel frustrated not being able to convey what I want to say :(

The question is "how". I have the audio and I have the video and I want every video file to be synced to its own audio file so that when I actually dive into the edit, I see the video file and listen to the synced audio. It's like replacing the reference audio track in the video file with the synced one.

But PluralEyes or whatever, it's just not possible because the files stay distinct unless you tie them inside a sequence.

Ideally, there would be a software that merge both files into only one that contains the video and the "good" sound.
 
Seriously, that seems messy ... You just throw everything you need into the sequence and rearrange by cutting it together ?


That's not my approach. I use the "source monitor". And I can't think of a way of using it with synced files (not sequences).

Not quite.. what makes this work is the alt+drag trick which tells premier to replace the target clip with the new clip\sequence keeping all effects, including in\out points from the original take, in tact. So if your clip on the edit timeline starts at 2:03:00 in the original video\take, and your create a sequence from that same original video\take and then alt+drag\drop it on the clip in the edit sequence, the "footage" for that clip will be replaced with the contents of the sequence you alt+dragged from the project pane starting at 2:03:00. Now however, the "clip" on the edit timeline has synced audio.

Takes longer to explain it then to do it... :)
 
I think I perfectly understood how that works. So far, it's the best technique I've heard of.

So there is no standard way to do it when you can't work with Timecode, everyone does it his way ?
 
There is no standard way to do it when you can't work with Timecode, everyone does it his way?

Pretty much. As technical of a process as editing is, it's still art. There are many techniques for most situations, but the right one is what's right for each artist. There are some things that will always make more sense, but how you hold your paintbrush isn't one of them.
 
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