Sound recording with limited kit

G

gorillaonabike

So... I'm now a professional film maker (yay!) with a small, corporate customer list. I'm marketing like crazy, am enjoying every minute of it, have made more money than I thought I would, although I wasn't very optimistic but still have this crazy, creative streak in me.

One thing I've always wanted to do is to shoot an opera, albeit a limited one. E.g. an opera without a full orchestra and to attempt to commercialise it.

Problem: I don't have the kit and want to attempt this on the cheap. My sound kitlist is:

- Mkh416 or ECM 674 (I find the ECM better if I need to focus on, say, something like birdsong).
- Sound devices mixer. Cheap one with a couple of XLRs
- Small mixer, somewhere I think. Something with lots of dials on but would have to dig it out.
- Recorder - Something Zoomy.
- The usual bits and pieces (booms etc...)
- Post software: I'd need to get some Logic Pro but could potentially farm out this element to someeone.
- Other stuff which is irrelevant like lavs etc...

I have a little experience of micing up a small, group. E.g. a guitarist with both a mic on the guitarist plus a pickup. However, I've never micced up an orchestra.

Dialogue is not an issue but obviously, music and singing is so I wanted to ask your opinion. Using this very limited setup, how would you record a small orchestra and singers?
 
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The very first sound films were recorded completely live. There would be a plant mic for the dialog (notice that in early talkies no one moves around much), one to three mics for the orchestra and a mic for the Foley walkers (how's that for nuts!). The sound booth was way off to one side or the back of the sound stage; sometimes it was even suspended from the ceiling!

vitarecording.jpg


The camera was in a "sound proof" booth to cut down on camera noise.

soundBooth_b.jpg


The camera as seen from the set. Notice the plant mic on the lower right…



Exaggerated for comedic effect, but does give you an idea of how adjusting to sound was difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6jsXQm5IrM



A few articles for fun as well


http://www.filmsound.org/ulano/index.html
http://www.filmsound.org/film-sound-history/sound1928part1.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20080512084423/http://www.mtsu.edu/~smpte/timeline.html
 
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During the pre-sound film era the upper class film theaters in the major cities had an orchestra for the original score and Foley artists, although they weren't called that back then, to create sound effects in sync with the film. So the only sonic thing missing in those first class theaters was the dialog.

As the films trickled down to the smaller film houses someone was needed to replace the Foley folks. This fell onto the drummers of the smaller music ensembles in the smaller theaters. As well as "stealing" some cliche's from Vaudeville they would bring all kinds of things to create the sounds needed for the films. They mounted all their bits and pieces on a frame of some type, which everyone started calling "Contraptions." which of course was shortened to "Trap Kit" and after a while drummers just played the Traps. It is the basis for the modern drum kit.

As the films filtered down to smaller and smaller houses the musical accompaniment was usually just a trio, duo or even solo piano or organ. As the scores got lost being transferred from house to house the local musicians dipped into the well of classical and current popular music. That's where a number of our music cue cliches were born.


Just imagine, besides all the new technical aspects that needed to be learned and mastered, think what it meant to directors when they realized that everyone would see their films exactly as intended. Pretty cool.



But they had to let the actors move, they couldn't be tied to fixed positions - the microphones. So the first booms came on the film set. As the mics were VERY heavy a very substantial boom pole was needed. It was the impetus of the film industry that got mics smaller and lighter so that they could be moved more easily and quietly.

In the picture below note the huge mic over the actors and the correspondingly enormous boom.

classical_bulldog_f.jpg


I could go on for quite a while, but you get the idea. It's a very interesting period in film history. Check out film sound.org; there's tons of great stuff regarding the history of sound-for-picture.
 
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It got better very quickly; by 1932 or so they had pretty much developed the basics of production sound as we know it today. Equipment got somewhat smaller, and the huge boom that could move was a real development; they could "follow" the actors around the set. It should be noted that, in the early era of "talkies", the production sound mixer also had the right to call "CUT!" if the sound was bad.

The really big one wasn't sound at all - it was quieter cameras. In fact, everything got quieter on the set. It was during this period the original sound stages were built, designed specifically to keep noise out.

For some context, here's the mic and boom used on "Gone With The Wind" (1939). Still pretty big and heavy, but the mic sounded really good.


gone-with-the-wind-filming.png
 
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A small small prosumer kit for typical low budget corporate shoots and films would be something like this:


Zoom F8n (& external battery plus ORCA or K Tek bag, I use an Orca OR-30 myself with a Zoom F4: https://youtu.be/FBaOHFdsW8g The new F8n has just started shipping, and mine will arrive very soon)

3x Sony UWP-D11 (& 3x Oscar SoundTech lavs), the Sonys are much better than the Sennheiser G3/G4 for the same price.

Sanken CS3e (with the Deity shotgun as a back up)

Audix SCX1 HC (with a iSK Little Gem as a spare)

3m and 5m carbon boom poles (3m is the bare minimum length you want, and you’ll want a second as a back up, and sometimes the extra reach is nice too. Get carbon fibre not aluminum, as weight matters!)

Various shock mounts, media, rechargeable batteries, wind protection, & cables. (all these “little things” can very quickly eat into your budget! Make sure to allocate a large chunk of money towards this)

2x Ultrasync ONE (& cables)

Just a starting point to consider, vary it depending on the nature of your specific needs
 
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I love how most of the crew are wearing ties and vests. Back then
this was their JOB - no different than a bank or office. Crew showed
up in jacket, vest, tie and hat, clocked in, did their job. Sure, in a hot
soundstage the jackets and hats came off, but rarely the vest and hardly
ever the tie.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
It got better very quickly; by 1932 or so they had pretty much developed the basics of production sound as we know it today. Equipment got somewhat smaller, and the huge boom that could move was a real development; they could "follow" the actors around the set. It should be noted that, in the early era of "talkies", the production sound mixer also had the right to call "CUT!" if the sound was bad.

The really big one wasn't sound at all - it was quieter cameras. In fact, everything got quieter on the set. It was during this period the original sound stages were built, designed specifically to keep noise out.

For some context, here's the mic and boom used on "Gone With The Wind" (1939). Still pretty big and heavy, but the mic sounded really good.


gone-with-the-wind-filming.png
Click to expand...

Love to see that. My shoot tomorrow (I have a corporate customer) goes back to the age of talkies. We are using a C-stand because the interviewee is seated and because we are shooting on a C500, we have a noise reduction unit!

Le plus ca change.
 
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IronFilm said:
A small small prosumer kit for typical low budget corporate shoots and films would be something like this:


Zoom F8n (& external battery plus ORCA or K Tek bag, I use an Orca OR-30 myself with a Zoom F4: https://youtu.be/FBaOHFdsW8g The new F8n has just started shipping, and mine will arrive very soon)

3x Sony UWP-D11 (& 3x Oscar SoundTech lavs), the Sonys are much better than the Sennheiser G3/G4 for the same price.

Sanken CS3e (with the Deity shotgun as a back up)

Audix SCX1 HC (with a iSK Little Gem as a spare)

3m and 5m carbon boom poles (3m is the bare minimum length you want, and you’ll want a second as a back up, and sometimes the extra reach is nice too. Get carbon fibre not aluminum, as weight matters!)

Various shock mounts, media, rechargeable batteries, wind protection, & cables. (all these “little things” can very quickly eat into your budget! Make sure to allocate a large chunk of money towards this)

2x Ultrasync ONE (& cables)

Just a starting point to consider, vary it depending on the nature of your specific needs
Click to expand...

I use a different setup as I offer corporate packages (not just sound, the whole shebang) so I need to both sell and get good sound. What I do is have kit with brands that 'wow' the customer and have a single, interviewee setup.

So:

Sennheiser Mkh416 feeding into an SD mixer into a Zoom. On camera, we have reference / backup with a Sony ECM674 which is frankly an absolute bargain and perfect for interviewees. I don't understand why but it's great for picking up voices at room distance without that tinniness that occurs even with more expensive mics. It's almost as if the inverse square law doesn't quite apply to this mic within a room and this has saved me in interviews. It's just fantastic.

We don't use lavs because we like our interviewees to look more 'natural' but I have a used G3 kicking around just in case.

Then Izotope if necessary.

For the last corporate, I composed the music because I just enjoyed doing it (and so that music doesn't eat into my margins).
 
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gorillaonabike said:
Love to see that. My shoot tomorrow (I have a corporate customer) goes back to the age of talkies. We are using a C-stand because the interviewee is seated and because we are shooting on a C500, we have a noise reduction unit!

Le plus ca change.
Click to expand...

I've heard the C500 in 4K raw is very very noisy? If you're shooting 4K that is, then check out the custom fans people have built to make it quieter.
 
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IronFilm said:
I've heard the C500 in 4K raw is very very noisy? If you're shooting 4K that is, then check out the custom fans people have built to make it quieter.
Click to expand...

I have a custom fan. The C500 is the bargain of the century because it's being sold off very cheaply but the images are incredible. I bought one from Canon which was 80% discounted over the original price with 1 hour on it. With the external fan unit, it's a cinema camera for DSLR money.

They are also incredibly robust.

The only issue is the fan unit but with an external, 80% off original price directly from Canon!!!!! If it's good enough for Scorcese, it's good enough for me!
 
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gorillaonabike said:
I have a custom fan. The C500 is the bargain of the century because it's being sold off very cheaply but the images are incredible. I bought one from Canon which was 80% discounted over the original price with 1 hour on it. With the external fan unit, it's a cinema camera for DSLR money.

They are also incredibly robust.

The only issue is the fan unit but with an external, 80% off original price directly from Canon!!!!! If it's good enough for Scorcese, it's good enough for me!
Click to expand...

you bought it from canon? how did that happen
their website doesn't sell anything, you have to go through individual retailers.
 
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sfoster said:
you bought it from canon? how did that happen
their website doesn't sell anything, you have to go through individual retailers.
Click to expand...

They had some kind of display model which they were trying to get rid of.

EDIT: Actually, no, you're right. I spoke with the Canon guy at the warehouse and then bought it through a partner. They wouldn't sell it to me directly so I had to go through someone.

I was thinking about the Sony. Sony had a direct sales channel and I spoke to someone over the phone who sold me one directly a few years back.
 
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