Sound equipment

Hi guys, we have an option to hire a sound guy at a good rate and just wanted to run his equipment by the techies. Bare in mind this is for a full feature which i dont mind being a bit rough around the edges but not to such a point that its distracting. I just want to know if it is possible to pull it off with such equipment first, we'll talk about the guy himself after.

His equipment is as follows:

Sennheiser EW100 G2 Radio mic x2, Sennheiser MKH 416, Radio Microphone, Tascam Hdp2, Neumann Microphone, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Pro tools system, Boom pole, blimp, Rode Ntg-2
 
It's okay. (Why is FCP, Logic and PT included in a production sound list?)

As I so frequently point out, it's the skill and not the gear. He has a decent entry level kit; how much experience does he have?
 
I agree but gave him benefit of the doubt due to the guerilla conditions on a subway train. I found that the audio focus was only on the girl in black. Brilliant little movies however, I suggest watching them all, great dialogue, very real.

Anyway back to it, do you think post audio editor is responsible for making the dialogue 'jump' out of the mix?
 
I agree but gave him benefit of the doubt due to the guerilla conditions on a subway train. I found that the audio focus was only on the girl in black. Brilliant little movies however, I suggest watching them all, great dialogue, very real.

Anyway back to it, do you think post audio editor is responsible for making the dialogue 'jump' out of the mix?

Yes, he is, though he's limited by the raw materials he has (the production audio). Some of the "eh, it's OK" in that video could very well be mediocre post work.
 
GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Shooting in a subway (the tube) is a tough proposition. There are HUGE amounts of background sound that are very difficult to eliminate with even the best NR software. If you try to make the dialog "pop" you end up increasing the background noise as well. Not bad, all things considered.
 
Okay, I just noticed that he doesn't have a mixer in his set-up. Does he need a mixer, or would he need a second man if he did have one?

To ME (Alcove is the expert here. I am speaking as a "producer") a mixer is the next step up. Basic setup capable of getting decent production audio is a quality boom, a boom pole, and a quality field recorder with a very high noise floor in it's preamps (or even a preamp in the chain before the recorder).

A guy who has that, and knows how to use it (really knows how to use it, has the ears for the job) can deliver very decent sound.
 
Yup, a mixer is a very nice step up - if you have the opportunity to use it.* It is almost impossible to mix while booming, which is what most folks like this are doing. As a one man sound crew lots of guys/gals are opting for more tracks since they can't mix. A four channel recorder will allow for three lavs and a boomed mic; that gives us audio post types some more options when it comes to the dialog edit/mix.


A really nice mixer like Sound Devices will have some useful (meaning fully controllable) limiters and many feel that the pre-amps are much smoother, so yes, a really good mixer will make a difference in sound quality even if you can't actually mix.
 
One more question though just to clarify in relation to 'GIGO'. Can the same be said for HDIPDDO (Half decent in, pretty damn decent out)?

:D :lol: :D :P

The final product is only as good as the raw materials. Yes, editing and audio post can improve things, but if you are cutting around things and artificially enhancing things the final product is not precisely what you envisioned, it has been compromised and becomes something else.
 
Anyway back to it, do you think post audio editor is responsible for making the dialogue 'jump' out of the mix?

No. The person responsible for this is the re-recording mixer. In low to high budget films and high budget TV dramas there is a Dialogue Editor, who cuts the best dialogue from all the various takes, creates/edits in room tone and prepares the dialogue for pre-mixing, where the dialogue is equalised, noise reduced, balanced and prepared for the final mix. There will also be a Sound Designer/Supervising Soujnd Editor, one or more Sound FX Editors and a Foley team. In lower budget TV there will usually be a Sound Editor and Re-Recording Mixer. In very micro-budget films and low budget TV there is often only one person fulfilling all the audio post roles.

One more question though just to clarify in relation to 'GIGO'. Can the same be said for HDIPDDO (Half decent in, pretty damn decent out)?

Even when the production sound isn't great, amazing results can sometimes be achieved in audio post but there are too many variables to be able to answer your question with any certainty. The equipment that the audio post person/s have and their skill in using it is obviously a major factor but saying "half decent" is very vague. Certain types of noise and other problems are relatively easy to fix, while others are impossible and of course many are somewhere in the middle. It's frequently impossible for the non-audio specialist to know which is which as sometimes problems which may appear easy to fix are impossible and at other times the opposite can be true. While working just on the production dialogue, I've had the same (relatively inexperienced) Director astonished and calling me a miracle worker, when earlier in the session he was threatening to fire me for incompetence!

G
 
I've had the same (relatively inexperienced) Director astonished and calling me a miracle worker, when earlier in the session he was threatening to fire me for incompetence!

G

I hope to shock the producer the same way :D

Just to be clear in regards to the mixer you speak of; is it common then to take a piece of dialogue from one take and lip sync it over another?
 
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Just to be clear in regards to the mixer you speak of; is it common then to take a piece of dialogue from one take and lip sync it over another?

It is the job of the dialog editor is to construct the best dialog track possible from all of the available audio. It is not at all unusual to completely reconstruct the dialog of a scene using the dialog from alternate/unused takes, even to the point where there is not one word of the dialog from the original take in the final edit. This is not "lip sync" but editing. Lip sync is what actors and singers do when they perform to a previously recorded audio track.

And just to clarify, the production sound mixer is the person who records the audio on the set. The rerecording mixer is the one who takes all the pieces of the audio puzzle - production dialog, ADR, Foley, sound FX, music and score - and combines them into a sonic whole. There are individual editing specialists for sound FX and music, and dedicated mixers, editors and walkers/artists for Foley, and dedicated ADR mixers and editors in addition to dialog editors. At the low/no/mini/micro budget level all these jobs may be done by one person, including, as A.P.E mentioned, being the rerecording mixer.
 
Just to be clear in regards to the mixer you speak of; is it common then to take a piece of dialogue from one take and lip sync it over another?

To be absolutely clear, it would be the dialogue editor who chooses the "pieces" of dialogue, not the re-recording mixer. When you watch/listen to a high budget film, it would be quite unusual to use all the dialogue for one scene just from a single take. Realise it or not, this raises several issues which may or may not be immediately apparent:

1. The quality requirements of dialogue editing, sound editing and mixing are not fixed. The first question of audio post is "what is the distribution format?", because you need to be editing at a quality level (and therefore with a monitoring environment) equal to the quality of equipment the consumer is using and for mixing you need to have monitoring equipment and levels of quality substantially better than the average consumer. This is so that you can identify (and fix) flaws the consumers' equipment could reproduce which would destroy the suspension of disbelief and the emotional/dramatic impact of what you are trying to create. So if your distribution is the web, most consumers are going to be listening on smartphones, laptops and computer speakers, so even average priced nearfield monitors would be sufficient for editing and mixing. A DVD or TV product is going to generally be listened to on a TV, a budget home cinema system or possibly a high quality home cinema system. A BluRay product is more likely to be listened to on a high quality home cinema system. A film for international theatrical distribution is going to be played in cinemas where many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on the acoustics and audio playback equipment. Each step up the ladder therefore requires higher quality audio post facilities and experience/skill. The huge, powerful, accurate sound systems found in most cinemas can reveal the tiniest of flaws, completely inaudible on even expensive studio monitors. In fact cinemas represent by far the highest quality audio reproduction most people will ever experience. This is why the top audio post facilities spend millions on acoustics and monitoring equipment, why the dialogue (and sound) editing and mixing needs to be so exacting and why audio post for theatrical release is so hugely expensive. The big problem for the micro/no budget filmmaker is when making the jump from the lowest quality audio arena (the web) to the highest quality arena (cinemas) in the case of film festival screenings for example.

2. Obviously, to use dialogue from alt takes and other sources means there have to be alt takes and other sources! this can be a problem if, for example, the actors are ad lib'ing or not following the script exactly. The actors need to be able to reproduce the ad lib'ing accurately and you as the filmmaker need to be recording two or more takes of this ad lib'ing. Ultimately, this should all be covered by good planning, during read-throughs in pre-production with the production sound mixer (PSM) present, who can then advise on workflow. Obviously if this and other sound issues can addressed during pre-production you are going to save a great deal of time, effort, frustration, ADR requirement and sub-standard audio during filming AND later in audio post. Also bare in mind that the PSM is working with a set of headphones in an imperfect monitoring environment. So even a highly experienced PSM with top quality equipment is not going to be aware of all the flaws which could become apparent in audio post.

3. The dialogue editor needs to be able to easily find all the sources of dialogue for each scene! This means good file management such as an accurate and detailed sound log, a logical and accurate file naming convention, scene and take numbers entered in the metadata and matching timecode stamps for each take. All this sounds boring but is an essential part of the PSM's role; it's common to have 3 or more different mics per take, plus there could be many takes per scene and then how many scenes are there in a film? The dialogue editor could be dealing with thousands of audio files and tens of thousands of channels of audio. If alt dialogue (from other mics, alt takes and wildtracks) cannot be easily located, imported and aligned, time constraints are going to require a great deal more ADR and/or sub-standard dialogue.

A lot of this info might appear quite discouraging to the average micro/no budget filmmaker but look on it as an opportunity. The vast majority of micro/no budget filmmakers either don't know this info, can't afford or figure out how to implement it or just don't care. Knowing this info and trying to implement it could give you a substantial advantage!

G
 
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Thanks for that info guys. It's all quite encouraging really to know that there are no limits to sound design. It also answers some suspicion's I had as to why so many no-budget productions have terrible sound and I always argued that post editing is a huge problem within these production. Most filmmakers record sound, sync it and some don't even master the sound at all! But like AA said; GIGO, but I always suspected that with semi-pro gear and pro editing, low end pro sound can be achieved.
 
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