Short Film vs TV Pilot
- Thread starter sfoster
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Okay so maybe I could make something for a public access channel. All right we are getting somewhere
Kind of frustrating, it's like your talking about hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry or something. knowledge that cannot be written down or taught in a course. it transcends all conventional mediums of education.
I've heard of specialized insider knowledge passed along through apprenticeship but damn even not magic is this big of a secret
I don't think I would ever get to the commercial level but I'm sure I could learn some more to help my web videos sound better. Maybe get to the point where an expert like yourself would have an easier/faster time taking what I've already done and then building off it. But I don't know what book to read or what youtube channel to watch
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No, I didn't mean this knowledge can't physically be written down or included in a course, I meant that it's simply not practical to do so. It's like being a surgeon or a commercial pilot, you can take all the courses and read all the books you want but it's not practical (and you're not going to be allowed to practice those professions) without significant prior knowledge/qualifications, hands on experience and a lot of time assisting an experienced professional practitioner and/or being mentored. Obviously audio post is not a life or death profession but the basic principle of reaching professional/commercial standards by learning from a practising professional is the same. There are simply too many interdependent complexities, a book would need to be tens of thousands of pages long and would at least partially be out of date by the time it got published.
Making it "sound better" is only one part of the equation. Let me draw an analogy: Let's say an average member of the public makes a short home vid of a couple of kids joking and playing around in the street. Achieving the exact same thing as a narrative filmmaker requires considerable experience, time and skill. You've got to write a coherent script, get and rehearse actors to perform in a way that appears natural/believable rather than staged and a whole bunch of other considerations besides. Also, as a narrative film, even a no budget one, there is a higher expectation. People will accept utterly crappy sound and barely audible dialogue on an actual live home video but will be less tolerant with a "film", even a film purporting to be found/amateur footage. There is a similar step up from amateur filmmaking to commercial filmmaking, IE., it's even more difficult just to achieve what sounds like exactly the same quality!
What you need to do to give pros like me an easier/faster time depends on what you want me to do. Do you just want me to make a better sounding mix for youtube or do you need a mix suitable for a higher tier film festival or maybe a set of audio deliverables compliant with a commercial theatrical distributor's requirements or set for a specific TV network? I remember a thread on this very subject quite a while ago here on IT. To be honest, it never really got off the ground as it proved difficult to provide any useful info beyond a few basic generalisations applicable to all these different formats/requirements, such as get good clean production dialogue and room tone and the vital importance of good asset organisation and management. Filmmakers here are mostly only interested in making online hosted videos rather than specific theatrical or TV broadcast products and without this specific info broad generalisations are all that is possible. So, while it would be massively easier, it would still be very tricky to write a book covering the specifics of just this one aspect, as anything pertaining to the audio requirements of any specific film distributor or TV broadcaster stands a fair chance of being out of date before or shortly after the book were published.
G
It might not be practical but at least I would be learning something.
I've been studying film very seriously but I'm barely advancing at all in my audio knowledge. I'm making the time for it but I don't know how to spend that time when it comes to some aspects.
Maybe this is where film school would come in handy?
great analogy
Yes I've still got a couple months production work on my crime thriller web series, but after that I'm attempting to make a short masterpiece for film festivals.
Since I've joined here I keep hearing films are 50% sound. It's half the experience.
Okay so it's half of what I'm trying to learn.
How come I've read 16 different books teaching myself various arts of film making and yet I haven't even read a single book dedicated to sound for film. Some books touch lightly on the subject but I've found books that do a breadth of material are fairly useless compared to books that focus in depth on just a single subject.
Does this make sense where I'm coming from? I shouldn't be so ignorant this is the information age.
How do I educate myself?
If I have to learn through apprenticeship it's unfortunate because I don't have the money to pay someone to teach me.
Okay so it's half of what I'm trying to learn.
How come I've read 16 different books teaching myself various arts of film making and yet I haven't even read a single book dedicated to sound for film. Some books touch lightly on the subject but I've found books that do a breadth of material are fairly useless compared to books that focus in depth on just a single subject.
Does this make sense where I'm coming from? I shouldn't be so ignorant this is the information age.
How do I educate myself?
If I have to learn through apprenticeship it's unfortunate because I don't have the money to pay someone to teach me.
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Nope, not even close. The vast majority of film schools teach audio on a scale which ranges from poor to horrific. There are extremely few exceptions to this general rule!
Let me draw another analogy: As geeky as it may sound, since I was a teenager I've been fascinated by theoretical physics. After a while though I'd learned about as much as a layman can learn, which was very frustrating! I wanted to understand in more detail but there was no further I could go as a layman, the next step was dedicating my life to learning incredibly complex math, something I was unwilling (and possibly incapable) of doing. So I was at a dead end, there appeared to be no intermediate steps between where I was as an interested layman and studying full-time with an actual theoretical physicist.
What you are looking for is roughly the same and doesn't really exist. However, I think you're approaching the whole issue from the wrong direction! While there are certainly a few practical steps you can take with the physical audio recordings (in the roles of PSM and picture editor) to make my work in audio post easier/faster, there are other steps you can take which have nothing to do with physical audio recordings which are orders of magnitude more helpful in enabling me to do a good job!! Virtually all amateur filmmakers think of narrative film as storytelling through visuals and dialogue, period. For this reason they only think about what is required in audio post once the film is otherwise completed and in terms of; improving the comprehensibility of the dialogue and not distracting from the visuals by making them sonically unbelievable. "Better sound" is therefore cleaner/more natural sounding dialogue and more believable/less distracting soundscapes. However, we're essentially talking about better audio fidelity, which is or can be an important ingredient in "better sound" but is not by itself better sound. It's like filming a short with two immobile actors sitting on a couch in a bare/bland sitting room with an iPhone on a fixed tripod. If we shoot the exact same scene again but with an Alexa and give the footage to a good colourist, would that be better cinematography? More importantly, would that be better storytelling or a better film? No, I would say that better image fidelity is just an ingredient and not by itself better cinematography. I would say that better cinematography starts with the script, with a more visually stimulating location, some physical movement, some poignant dialogue with momentary pauses. It continues with set/art design, interesting lighting/shadows and the possibility of different angles/POVs/shot depths, etc. All of which will allow the cinematographer opportunities to create intrigue, focus our attention, heighten the drama, imply things and actually participate in the storytelling, rather than just being the physical means by which the actors' performance is recorded. Exactly the same is true of sound!!
In other words, stop trying to learn the detailed techniques of how to improve your audio fidelity and comply with technical requirements. Unless you want to actually be an audio post professional it's a road to nowhere which will have little impact on the quality/watchability of your films. As a director or producer you absolutely have to know a bit about technical audio requirements, so you know what resources (personnel/facilities) you'll need and can design your film with them in mind but it's a waste of your time trying to actually learn to do it yourself. If you want "better sound" instead of trying to learn the specific physical processes of digital audio manipulation you would be far better served by learning a different filmmaking approach. Progress beyond the late 1920's view and approach of film being a visual medium with dialogue and try out the approach of the great modern filmmakers! Learn to think in terms not just of what your characters (and audience) see or learn from the dialogue but also what they hear. Think about the fact that your characters are not real human beings if they only perceive and respond to visual stimuli or dialogue and don't inhabit an aural world, then think about how you can use this fact to enhance your story telling! This article is a good place to start: Designing a Film for Sound.
Although it might appear like I'm contradicting what I said above, I'm going to suggest you read "Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art". Although it deals with the specific mechanics of one aspect of audio post, it's so well written and explains so eloquently how dialogue editing contributes to the art of motion picture storytelling that I consider it essential reading not only for aspiring audio post pros but essential also for directors, screenwriters, producers and pic editors.
OK, this tells us what you're going to need (and not need). The good news is that you won't need any type of M&E mix, a time consuming and costly commercial requirement. You are going to need two audio mixes: A stereo mix, something along the lines of a stereo broadcast spec mix (for submission) and a theatrical 5.1 mix (for exhibition). That's not a big deal though, as a stereo mix for submission can easily/cheaply be derived by your audio post personnel from the 5.1 mix. So, as the Director or Producer this means you're going to need theatrical audio post facilities/personnel and of course referring to what I said above, to design your film for 5.1 sound. This is a little problematic as theatrical audio post personnel/facilities are extremely expensive, think of a week or more at say $300-400 per hour. There are of course ways to significantly reduce this cost by increasing your risk, say hiring a smaller cheaper 5.1 boutique/broadcast facility to do all the editing/design grunt work and then just mixing in a theatrical dub stage or at the very least checking the mix in a theatrical dub stage. It's also occasionally possible to get theatrical facilities/personnel at a massive discount, say during their down time for use essentially as a training project for their assistant/apprentice editors/mixers. But all this needs to be sorted out, organised and budgeted before you start making your short. That just leaves the talent and artistic vision required to design your film for 5.1 sound, which is maybe a topic for another post/thread?
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Every movie you make is a learning experience. You should be making
two short films a month (at the very least) and learning (by doing)
how to record audio on set. Then you learn (by doing) how to create
and build the audio environment of your movie. You don't need top of
the line equipment and each finished product doesn't need to be perfect
– you learn. At some point you will need to work with (or hire) a dedicated
audio person for you movies.
Unless your end goal is to be an audio expert. Then that path is different.
That sounds fine to me but then again you're talking to someone that applied calculus to beer pong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2R9YJ24kpM
Unfortunately if I want to produce content, doing things myself is the only direction I really have. I will perhaps be able to sell a few remaining possessions , beg friends and family for money and get an audio mix made for my final short film. but it's not something I'll be able to do twice.
That article was a great read, thanks. I've heard this subject debated on here before but never with such specific examples. I dare say I learned a thing or two.
I wish I read that book a year or two ago, I've learned a lot through trial and error. Better late than never though I'll add that to my list. It's exactly the sort of thing I was asking about.
Ouch, a five figure price tag. Yeah I need to finish writing this last episode of my crime thriller series and then I can start doing real preproduction on the theatrical short. Apparently sound mixing is going to cost more than I've budgeted for the entire project. Given me a lot to think about.
I've been moving much slower than that but i'm taking steps to fix the problem. I finally have my own microphone and recorder now so I don't have to rely on others for equipment if I want to produce content. Now if I can only finish this script that is hanging over my head.
Off to work on that instead of posting here
A few points:
1. The assertion in your OP is only partially correct. While one can't directly make money from shorts, one can indirectly make or attract money. For this reason, at the higher tier festival level, it's not uncommon to find shorts with budgets in the range of $30k-$100k. These are generally not amateur filmmakers though but professionals with specific goals. Maybe the short is part of a campaign to raise a seven figure budget for a theatrical feature or maybe it's a targeted "calling card" for a successful pro/s in TV world wanting to break into the theatrical side of the industry. There maybe various reasons for needing to demonstrate the ability to achieve full commercial theatrical feature standards by making a short which may appear to have a ludicrously high budget but which is still 50-100 times cheaper than the average low budget commercial feature. In these cases, full commercial theatrical standard audio post could well be a necessity.
2. Do you have a specific goal in mind beyond just getting your short screened at a high tier festival? Do you have a realistic plan for getting past the submission stage, baring in mind that some/many of the shorts you'll be competing against will have been made by professionals and be at or very close to full commercial standards? If your answer to both these questions is "no", then you'll effectively be betting your "few remaining possessions" on a very long shot. In your favour is that the high tier festivals do like to screen films by small budget amateurs if possible, in order not to appear too elitist, particularly in the shorts category. Nevertheless, you're still going to have to get reasonably close to commercial theatrical standards.
3. I gave you an incredibly rough figure, which wasn't just for mixing but for all of the audio post and doesn't take into consideration the duration, style, genre and other factors which have a significant impact on cost. If your answers to the questions in point #2 were "yes", then you immediately become more attractive to potential sponsors who could help to cover or partially cover the costs. Alternatively, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are ways of getting reasonably close to full commercial theatrical standards with far less than a full commercial budget, albeit ways which incur potentially more risk.
4. I appreciate that your situation has dictated that the easiest/best solution to creating content is for you to do it yourself. However, that solution is impractical/unrealistic at the higher tier festival level where you'll be competing not with other filmmakers but with filmmaking teams of specialists and in some/many cases, filmmaking teams of professional specialists! Even if you find people to fulfil the specialist roles or manage to raise the funds to hire professional specialists, you're still going to have to deal with the fact that you'll effectively be a first-timer. Having done it yourself in the past, you won't have any experience of the workflows (or professional workflows) required when working with a team of specialists or, any experience of directing a team of specialists. This is not necessarily an insurmountable problem but it will greatly increase your chances of ending up with a short which is not of the quality you hoped/expected.
Maybe spending your one time budget on your next project is the right move or maybe putting off your "masterpiece" short until you've found a way to increase your experience and improve you chances is the right move? I'm not trying to encourage or dissuade you from your plan, just provide you with some facts to consider, including trying to point out that increasing your ability to do it all yourself is extremely unlikely to get you where you want to go.
That article was originally drafted about 20 or so years ago. So some of the specific issues/points discussed have changed somewhat. However the vast majority of it and the basic principle of sound being a storytelling "player" is as true today as when it was written and indeed as true today as it was when the principle first started being developed by filmmaking pioneers in the 1940's. IMHO, it's worth reading again and really digesting!
G
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Some people prefer to read about the process of filmmaking.
When you finally get to actually making movies you will
learn things a book, article and messageboards can't teach.
Now that you have a mic an recorder you can learn by doing.
Nothing wrong with reading. But there is nothing quite like
doing it.
You're talking like I haven't made anything.
Production is the fun part, it's everything else that feels like work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIhKlMSAT44
Wrote, directed, boomed, did 100% of post production.
Only thing I didn't do was hold the camera.
The goal is have a feature length script written by the time my short is screened at a higher tier festival. To network with people that could help me turn a feature length script into a feature.
To get past the submissions stage. Yeah I have VFX that will be mind blowing to some people. Also I'll be losing 1/3 of my bodyweight a few minutes into the short to help enhance these vfx.
I've done a few projects for experience.. and my web mini series is going to end up about 45 minutes in length. I feel like it's time for me to strike! Hopefully not strike out
No. You asked about how to educate yourself. I offered my
opinion. Nothing more. Just an opinion.
I apologize.
Opinions are welcome but "When you finally get to actually making movies you will learn things a book, article and messageboards can't teach." sounds like I haven't got around to making movies. I suppose it was the proverbial "you" instead of me specifically you were talking about.
My last post was my attempt to ensure your opinion was based on all the facts, nothing more. I can't assume everyone here has seen all my posts or videos.
You should never have to apologize to me for giving your opinion, it's welcome.
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Here's your list of books:
Sound Design - David Sonnenschein (a more artistic/philosophical POV than practical applications)
Sound and Vision - Michel Chion
Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound - David Lewis Yewdall (a bit dated, but still pretty good)
The Foley Grail - Vanessa Ament (Get it with the DVD)
Dialog Editing - John Purcell (I agree with APE - great book)
--- They at least get you thinking in the right direction
The Location Sound Bible - Ric Viers
The Sound Effects Bible - Ric Viers (Some redundancies, but...)
These two are more the rough and ready indie approach to things.
Sound Design - David Sonnenschein (a more artistic/philosophical POV than practical applications)
Sound and Vision - Michel Chion
Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound - David Lewis Yewdall (a bit dated, but still pretty good)
The Foley Grail - Vanessa Ament (Get it with the DVD)
Dialog Editing - John Purcell (I agree with APE - great book)
--- They at least get you thinking in the right direction
The Location Sound Bible - Ric Viers
The Sound Effects Bible - Ric Viers (Some redundancies, but...)
These two are more the rough and ready indie approach to things.
Thanks! Perfect timing as I have a birthday coming up
That's a rather vague goal as opposed to a specific one. Everyone attending the high tier festivals are there to further their own careers and aspirations, not to help others fulfil their dream of turning a script into a feature! In other words, beyond the odd handshake and maybe word of encouragement, you're not going to gain anything fruitful or achieve your goal by networking at a high tier fest unless you demonstrate the ability or obvious potential to further the goals/aspirations of those with the resources to turn your script into a feature.
Mind blowing to which people? To other amateur/aspiring VFX artists, other no budget amateur filmmakers, to those such as high tier festival programmers whose baseline comparison is the very best amateur VFX artists/full commercial VFX standards or to those people who aren't really interested in VFX at all except in terms of the whole package (the quality of the film which contains them)? And, even if your VFX do manage to impress the right people, what are you likely to achieve? Encouragement or maybe even some employment opportunity as a VFX artist, none of which necessarily gets you any closer to your ultimate goal of turning your script into a feature.
Wrote, directed, boomed, did 100% of post production. ... I've done a few projects for experience.. and my web mini series is going to end up about 45 minutes in length. I feel like it's time for me to strike! Hopefully not strike out
You said above that my analogy in post #22 was "great" but I don't think you really understood it as an analogy. If Joe Public came to you and said: "Look, I've taken quite a few family snaps and vacation vids with my smartphone, so I've got some experience holding a camera, framing a shot and getting a decent image. I want to take the next step, sell some of my possessions and make a narrative short for a low/med tier film festival. BTW, what books should I buy to help me hold a camera better and make better home videos?". What would your response be? You'd probably be supportive but also a little concerned. Having some experience making home vids is maybe better than no experience at all but a narrative indie short is not just a "better home video", it's another ball game entirely! You know that Joe Public is going to have think up a story, write a script, organise and rehearse actors, find some locations, get and learn some editing software, maybe a proper camera, audio recording equipment, etc. Joe's chances of making anything decent first time out, with his current knowledge, experience, approach and equipment are tiny. Furthermore, Joe trying to find out how to better hold his smartphone and take better family vacation vids is maybe marginally helpful but is not directly going to get him any closer to exhibiting an indie narrative short at a film fest. Joe's situation is analogous to yours, the jump from low tier film fest to high tier film fest is similar to the jump from taking home videos and making indie narrative shorts. High tier fests aren't the same as low tier fests, just a bit better, they're a different ball game!
Let me put it another way: I've spent over $200k building and equipping my current audio post facility, have 20 years experience as a specialist audio post professional, been a course designer and senior lecturer in the subject at university, etc, etc. How many books and how many minutes of web-series do you think you'd have to read/make to compete with the quality of work I can produce? While this might appear to be a stupid question, it's not an irrelevant one. I've done a number of shorts, films and docs for high tier film fests, so competing with the quality of work that I and others just like me are capable of producing is precisely what you're aiming to do with your next project! Furthermore, you'll be competing with filmmakers using a number of experienced specialists like me to fulfil some or all of the other film crafts/roles as well. So, unless you're wealthy and a truly great, natural born audio post genius I don't see how you're going to catch up with me by the time your next project starts, much less catch up with similarly experienced and resourced PSMs, VFX artists, directors, producers, cinematographers, art designers, pic editors, graders, gaffers, screenwriters, etc. This is why I don't see how improving your audio post (and presumably all the other film crafts) is going to get you where you want to go. What you're trying to do isn't completely impossible, I have heard of one or two exceptions but it's not the usual route simply because it is so rarely successful. Although it might have been easier and/or more practical for you to do it all yourself up till now, to achieve your stated goals that approach will almost certainly prove to be massively more difficult and totally impractical. My advice, to change your approach, will make your life more difficult in the short term but will allow you to start developing the skills, knowledge and experience of an approach which is massively more likely and practical to get you where you want to go.
G
No, the odds are against you as an amateur that's for sure!
There probably are some examples of people who started off making DIY shorts and moved on to features. If I were a film investor though, I'd be sceptical about investing in an amateur filmmaker and many times more sceptical about investing in an amateur to manage and direct a team of film craftspeople who'd never even worked with a team of film craftspeople before!
G
There probably are some examples of people who started off making DIY shorts and moved on to features. If I were a film investor though, I'd be sceptical about investing in an amateur filmmaker and many times more sceptical about investing in an amateur to manage and direct a team of film craftspeople who'd never even worked with a team of film craftspeople before!
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