archived-videos SHORT: Fallen

[MileCreations]

Fallen SHORT SYNOPSIS:
Bonnie and James run away from home when their parents start fighting and embark on a series of adventures in the bush.

So this is my latest film, I've had it finished for a while but have not been allowed to show it for some reason. Officially it is my year 12 final media submission.

If you plan on watching it don't read this whole thread yet as there are a few spoilers!


Link to film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJOsRWuEJg

Link to film facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/MileCreations

This is my third 'major' film that I have created.

Any tips on anything cinemeatography/story/acting/music/locations/lighting are greatly appreciated

Thanks again
Brendan

 

[AudioPostExpert]

While that is a good point that we must "kill our babies" sometimes, if there's anything I've learnt from this production is that the snake worked. 90% of my positive feedback has been about the snake and it has made me glad I took the extra effort to get ahold of the man who owned it.

Yes, 90% of the positive feedback you've received has been about the snake scene but to develop your skills, you have to ask yourself why. Is it because the feedback is from filmmakers who appreciate how difficult that scene was to film or is it purely because you maximised the dramatic potential of the scene? To an audience of the general public, only the latter is of any real importance.

Look at your short again but this time as a member of the audience rather than as a filmmaker. Feel the energy and pace from the boy falling in the creek and the girl running for help through the grass, now feel the fear and dramatic impact of suddenly finding yourself face to face with a snake. You can't, it's not there! The energy, pace and dramatic impact has virtually disappeared! Your film still probably works better with the scene than without it but works fractionally as well as it should have. I'm not suggesting you learn how to compose music (or sound) yourself or even that you should find significant budgets to hire music and sound professionals. I'm saying that as the Director, it's up to you to direct whatever composer/sound people you do have! In this case, that would have meant making it clear to the music/sound person/s that the snake scene should present more drama and fear than the running through the grass scene. As with the opening scene, you have directed what the audience sees well ... but it's hard to imagine how your directing of the sound/music could have been worse because instead of enhancing the storytelling you were trying to achieve with your visuals, the music/sound does the exact opposite and fights against it! The audience ends up getting half the emotional impact, excitement and entertainment value for which you as the director are responsible.

Just to be absolutely clear, I'm NOT talking about the sound equipment you have or your budget for sound/music but I am questioning your professed "respect" for these aspects of filmmaking. I'm questioning the level of your directorial skills of the visuals, compared with your directorial skills for the audio side of filmmaking. You need to be good at both to be a good director! Your composer was obviously not a top professional but was perfectly capable of creating different energy levels and emotional "feels". So in this film, the fact that he/she often created an inappropriate pace and/or feel is more of a directorial issue than a budgetary or compositional issue.

Creating something which "works" is a great achievement and I applaud your efforts but now you need to start thinking beyond this first step. If your filmmaking idol is for example Spielberg, then you need to start thinking like Spielberg, you can't just limit your thinking to that of whoever Spielberg's DOP is or even to that of Michael Kahn!

Again, I'm not saying this to try to insult or discourage you, the opposite, I'm suggesting how you can most obviously improve you directing skills at no cost beyond adjusting your thought processes and spending some time studying how sound/music is employed by the great directors/filmmakers.

G

 

[MileCreations]

Yes, 90% of the positive feedback you've received has been about the snake scene but to develop your skills, you have to ask yourself why. Is it because the feedback is from filmmakers who appreciate how difficult that scene was to film or is it purely because you maximised the dramatic potential of the scene? To an audience of the general public, only the latter is of any real importance.
....
Again, I'm not saying this to try to insult or discourage you, the opposite, I'm suggesting how you can most obviously improve you directing skills at no cost beyond adjusting your thought processes and spending some time studying how sound/music is employed by the great directors/filmmakers.

G

Interesting. So music was a major let down for this film for you? To be honest I actually gave almost no direction to my composer: he's busy with school and it was an unpaid job. I just told him to make some music that suits this. Which by the sounds of it from one of your posts is that I relied on the music to guide the story? Which in a sense is true if I simply told him to create 'music that suits the film'.

To answer your first (kind of) rhetorical question, I've had both film makers and general audience impressed by the snake.

Having said that it works well, I recently did a poll on my Facebook page about what people thought was my favourite film. I expected Fallen to be much higher than the others, however (while it was still higher) the two below it only had a few less (out of the 30 something that voted).

Thanks for your input

 

[Joshua Lloyd]

This is wonderful, very well pieced together and I agree with "Zensteve", the snake was awesome!

 

[MileCreations]

The part with the snake was particularly awesome! How'd you arrange the various shots for that?

Your camerawork has stepped way up since your last project, btw.

Also, how many crew did you lose to Dropbears during production?

yea the snake part was cool...liked the ending to when the mom opens the door and its

Spoiler

just the 2 kids and the man disappears

...

I liked that the stakes were amped up with the girl running for help befalling her own potentially deadly difficulties.

This is wonderful, very well pieced together and I agree with "Zensteve", the snake was awesome!

Seeing as a few people aren't massively keen on the snake bit, or at least felt that its emotional impact was downplayed, what is it that you guys liked about it? As AudioPostExpert said was it an appreciation of the potential difficulty of filming an animal such as this, or something different?

I'm just curious now due to this mixed reaction

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Interesting. So music was a major let down for this film for you? To be honest I actually gave almost no direction to my composer: he's busy with school and it was an unpaid job. I just told him to make some music that suits this. Which by the sounds of it from one of your posts is that I relied on the music to guide the story? Which in a sense is true if I simply told him to create 'music that suits the film'.

Yes, you've got it!!!!

Left to their own devices every filmmaking department will feel it's their job to tell 100% of the story. Of course in reality it's the combination of the different departments work which tells the story. At any one particular point in a film it maybe the cinematography, acting, sound, music, VFX, etc., which is taking the lead with the others supporting and/or enhancing, but it can't be all of them taking the lead all at the same time. That's why the role of director exists! To have an overview or vision of how all the various departments' contributions are going to combine to create the storytelling whole. The director is the only person who knows this vital information.

The consequence of you not fulfilling the role of director with the composer has resulted in the music micky-mousing in places and being inappropriate in other places, for example the opening, as I mentioned. Having the pace, energy and threat feel of the music during the running in the grass scene has left you nowhere to go during the snake scene but down. As the director you could have suggested no music for the running scene and left it to the sound to create some energy and pace and then had the music come in to heighten the dramatic impact of the snake scene or you could have had music for the running scene but made it clear to the composer not get too dramatic until the snake scene. There were lots of different ways the dramatic potential of the snake scene could have been realised but all of them require the "vision" (and direction) of the Director!

It's not fair to say the music in the film was a major let down, in places it was vary good (considering what it cost). I would be more fair to say that in places the music seriously handicapped the storytelling. Even after decades of working together at the top of their professions, Spielberg still has in depth conversations with, and still "directs" John Williams.

G

 

[The Liberator]

Seeing as a few people aren't massively keen on the snake bit, or at least felt that its emotional impact was downplayed, what is it that you guys liked about it? As AudioPostExpert said was it an appreciation of the potential difficulty of filming an animal such as this, or something different?

I'm just curious now due to this mixed reaction

Dude, If you're sure that the snake works (as you said to me) it shouldn't matter to you anymore, you've made up your mind.

My opinion has stayed the same and i totally agree with AudioPostExpert, i watched your film again as an audience member to try and piece together what you were trying to do. It was just so jarring that it took me completely out of the film.

I'm not saying you definitely SHOULD have taken it out of the film necessarily. But you should have refined it more so it fit with the film, maybe in a different place or something. You establish one emotion which is the girl running in fear of her brother drowning and she's trying to get help, then she falls and there's a snake there, it's just so disconnected, and the feel changes so suddenly and to something so differently.

i feel like the snake takes heaps AWAY from the drama because it's not posing any real threat to her, yeah it may be scary to a girl, but it's not rearing it's head for attack, it's not striking her, it's not coming closer to her, it's just sitting there minding it's own business. I can guarantee you that 90% of sisters in the world would disregard the snake and run home to help their brothers... it really would matter to them if they're under the impression their brother is going to die, family are very selfless when it comes to other family in most cases.

I showed the film to a friend who went to film school with me and asked him what his feedback would be for the film. he left three pieces of major feedback, 1st being the shutter speed is to fast and second was that the music was wrong, didn't suit the drama it felt a bit daytime television and third was that the film would have been more impactful if the snake wasn't there. (and when the snake came up he said "oh cool!")

having said all that, yeah it's cool that the snake is there, it really is. but it's not necessary, you'll find if people are watching the film and saying "COOL SNAKE!", it means they've been pulled out of it because it sticks out, which isn't a good thing, the reaction you would want is people gasping or saying to you after the screening "Oh and when the snake came out it was terrifying!" or better yet not mentioning it at all!

and PLEASE take AudioPostExpert's advice about the music, he was spot on, music means soooooo much to a film and a bad score can ruin an amazing film.

so basically all I'm saying is it's just poor execution at this point, something that can easily be fixed in the future. and take it as a positive thing, failure is a great motivator for success. And Hey, you experimented, it's a great trait in a film maker, even if it doesn't work!

 

[knightly]

I had precisely the opposite reaction... thought the snake was perfect... I've recently come face to face with a few rattlesnakes, and it did just fine for me, strike pose or not. Amped up the stakes just right.

I love how wonderfully subjective audience involvement is. More tweaking would certainly involve more of the audience -- but keep in mind that the audience here is used to analyzing the bejeepers out of everything they watch from a technical standpoint. We can no longer just watch a film, that ship has sailed.

 

[MileCreations]

i feel like the snake takes heaps AWAY from the drama because it's not posing any real threat to her, yeah it may be scary to a girl, but it's not rearing it's head for attack, it's not striking her, it's not coming closer to her, it's just sitting there minding it's own business. I can guarantee you that 90% of sisters in the world would disregard the snake and run home to help their brothers... it really would matter to them if they're under the impression their brother is going to die, family are very selfless when it comes to other family in most cases.

Do you know how hard it is to control a snake?

I showed the film to a friend who went to film school with me and asked him what his feedback would be for the film. he left three pieces of major feedback, 1st being the shutter speed is to fast and second was that the music was wrong, didn't suit the drama it felt a bit daytime television and third was that the film would have been more impactful if the snake wasn't there. (and when the snake came up he said "oh cool!")

having said all that, yeah it's cool that the snake is there, it really is. but it's not necessary, you'll find if people are watching the film and saying "COOL SNAKE!", it means they've been pulled out of it because it sticks out, which isn't a good thing, the reaction you would want is people gasping or saying to you after the screening "Oh and when the snake came out it was terrifying!" or better yet not mentioning it at all!

and PLEASE take AudioPostExpert's advice about the music, he was spot on, music means soooooo much to a film and a bad score can ruin an amazing film.

so basically all I'm saying is it's just poor execution at this point, something that can easily be fixed in the future. and take it as a positive thing, failure is a great motivator for success. And Hey, you experimented, it's a great trait in a film maker, even if it doesn't work!

Interesting about the shutter speed, it was high because there was lots of light and I didn't want to sacrifice a wide aperture. Could you suggest a solution? No one yet has commented on that, how exactly can your friend tell?

Good point about the snake being 'cool' but taking you out of the story at the same time...

Yes well I intend on directing my future composers as best I can

 

[The Liberator]

Do you know how hard it is to control a snake?



Interesting about the shutter speed, it was high because there was lots of light and I didn't want to sacrifice a wide aperture. Could you suggest a solution? No one yet has commented on that, how exactly can your friend tell?

Good point about the snake being 'cool' but taking you out of the story at the same time...

Yes well I intend on directing my future composers as best I can

Haha, yeah i imagine a snake would be near to impossible to control! but that's where my point lays, it's too hard to control to get the bulk of the emotion across.

i cant speak for my friend, but i can offer my advice on it haha, i can say that investing in an ND filter or two would probably solve the problem. generally they aren't too expensive.

You can tell because it gives the impression that there's very little motion blur, everything is ultra sharp, generally the rule you'll want to go by is that the shutter speed should be double what the frame rate is, so if you're shooting 24fps or 25fps your shutter speed should be 50. This will give you a more cinematic look.

what you've done here can be a style, that's why no one has commented on it, it's just personal taste, saving private ryan used high shutter speeds in it's action sequences.

 

[EmilyNancyJean]

Seeing as a few people aren't massively keen on the snake bit, or at least felt that its emotional impact was downplayed, what is it that you guys liked about it? As AudioPostExpert said was it an appreciation of the potential difficulty of filming an animal such as this, or something different?

I'm just curious now due to this mixed reaction

I've given the film another watch, and I still quite like the snake scene. I think it works. I liked the fact she didn't run away screaming instantly and that it was a mini faceoff between the two. The only point I could make is that I would have liked it to be a bit more tense and suspenseful.

As for the music, i'm not an expert but I didn't think the music was horribly wrong or anything. I quite liked the piano at the beginning and the music built it up quite well

 

[knightly]

I'd second te ND filters, and/or a polarizer to cut down light without having to change the shutter.

 

[TheLoganDaniels]

As far as the snake scene goes, for me, the problem is two things: poor music choice and poor acting. Others have addresses the music and sound better than me so I will just focus on the acting. Your girl seems too neutral towards the snake. Why isn't she a little scared of it at first? And then when the snake begins to turn away she should have been gaining courage or the reveal of the guardian should have been done better to show that the snake was scared of him.

No matter what, I still found the piece to be pretty well done.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Look at your short again but this time as a member of the audience rather than as a filmmaker.

This is probably one of the hardest disciplines for filmmakers (or any artist) to learn; you have to completely divorce yourself from your emotional involvement with your "child" and then let the emotional content of your own film affect you as if you had never seen it before.

 

[MileCreations]

i cant speak for my friend, but i can offer my advice on it haha, i can say that investing in an ND filter or two would probably solve the problem. generally they aren't too expensive.

You can tell because it gives the impression that there's very little motion blur, everything is ultra sharp, generally the rule you'll want to go by is that the shutter speed should be double what the frame rate is, so if you're shooting 24fps or 25fps your shutter speed should be 50. This will give you a more cinematic look.

what you've done here can be a style, that's why no one has commented on it, it's just personal taste, saving private ryan used high shutter speeds in it's action sequences.

I'd second te ND filters, and/or a polarizer to cut down light without having to change the shutter.

Yes I've heard the double shutter speed advice. I've used ND filters on Sony XDcams and such because you just flick a switch on the side (how lazy..) but how can I use one with an SLR? I've just done a quick search and couldn't find much in the way of 'Canon ND filters'

 

[MileCreations]

Apparently actually typing 'Neutral Density Filter' makes a huge difference

 

[Alcove Audio]

Okay...

The term "Mickey Mousing" comes from early animations where musical instruments were used as sound effect "hits" to coincide with the action.

There needed to be a little more set-up. The parents voices could have been clearly heard to be arguing, perhaps starting right away with the your logo; it would give more of the impression that there is something from which the kids are escaping. The score starts when the children get outside. Of course, as a sound guy, I would have had Foley when they jump over the fence. The score would have stopped when the childrens dialog begins; the score picks up again (it was a bit overly dramatic here) when they start running (more Foley here as well). You need water sounds when you see the little waterfall as a portent of what's to come. The more dramatic score begins when he starts across the fallen tree over the water. I would have used a bigger splash when he hits the water and more splashing sounds to heighten the dramatic impact "drowning", perhaps some panicked vocalizations from the boy. You need a really good body fall for the girl when she falls in front of the snake, and a cliché snake hiss from the snake to heighten the danger. You need lots of Foley during her "rescue" and when they walk back to the house.

BTW, the boy looks to dry. The rescuer/guardian angel looks just like dad; is he supposed to?

As you move on into your next projects you need to think of sound, aside from the score, as an equal partner in your storytelling. I've worked with a director who also happens to be the dean of film at one of the local colleges who teaches that you need to approach the film three times during preproduction.

First approach is as a totally silent film. What can you tell the audience visually about the story/plot and the characters? You really need to see the anger in the faces of the parents, for example. This is also where set design and hair/make-up come into play.

The second approach is as a radio play. If you can't see anything what will the sounds tell you about the story/plot and the characters? Here is where you really need to hear the anger in the parents voices. You need to create a complete sonic world. The woods becomes peaceful, an escape and contrast to the home, as another example.

The third approach is where you meld the two previous approaches. What can sounds tell the audience that the visuals cannot, and the reverse, what can the visuals tell the audience that sound cannot? What can combining the two accomplish to strengthen the plot/story and give us more information about the characters?

Filmmaking is the most complex of all the arts, it combines the visual arts and the sonic arts. They play off of each other, working in consonance and dissonance to manipulate the audience.

You are also working in contrasts; you need peaks and valleys. That's part of the issue that I, and apparently Greg (AudioPostExpert), had with the score; it was dark all the time.

 

[joey1320]

Okay...

The term "Mickey Mousing" comes from early animations where musical instruments were used as sound effect "hits" to coincide with the action.

There needed to be a little more set-up. The parents voices could have been clearly heard to be arguing, perhaps starting right away with the your logo; it would give more of the impression that there is something from which the kids are escaping. The score starts when the children get outside. Of course, as a sound guy, I would have had Foley when they jump over the fence. The score would have stopped when the childrens dialog begins; the score picks up again (it was a bit overly dramatic here) when they start running (more Foley here as well). You need water sounds when you see the little waterfall as a portent of what's to come. The more dramatic score begins when he starts across the fallen tree over the water. I would have used a bigger splash when he hits the water and more splashing sounds to heighten the dramatic impact "drowning", perhaps some panicked vocalizations from the boy. You need a really good body fall for the girl when she falls in front of the snake, and a cliché snake hiss from the snake to heighten the danger. You need lots of Foley during her "rescue" and when they walk back to the house.

BTW, the boy looks to dry. The rescuer/guardian angel looks just like dad; is he supposed to?

As you move on into your next projects you need to think of sound, aside from the score, as an equal partner in your storytelling. I've worked with a director who also happens to be the dean of film at one of the local colleges who teaches that you need to approach the film three times during preproduction.

First approach is as a totally silent film. What can you tell the audience visually about the story/plot and the characters? You really need to see the anger in the faces of the parents, for example. This is also where set design and hair/make-up come into play.

The second approach is as a radio play. If you can't see anything what will the sounds tell you about the story/plot and the characters? Here is where you really need to hear the anger in the parents voices. You need to create a complete sonic world. The woods becomes peaceful, an escape and contrast to the home, as another example.

The third approach is where you meld the two previous approaches. What can sounds tell the audience that the visuals cannot, and the reverse, what can the visuals tell the audience that sound cannot? What can combining the two accomplish to strengthen the plot/story and give us more information about the characters?

Filmmaking is the most complex of all the arts, it combines the visual arts and the sonic arts. They play off of each other, working in consonance and dissonance to manipulate the audience.

You are also working in contrasts; you need peaks and valleys. That's part of the issue that I, and apparently Greg (AudioPostExpert), had with the score; it was dark all the time.

Really good info