Selling a finished film?

[Yodaman]

Hey all,

what all does it take to sell a completed film legally?

Heh, that's a bit vague, so I'll elaborate a bit...

I know that selling one's film is ultimately the goal of any indie filmmaker, although it's certainly a very risky thing to attempt. I have an idea for a film (actually my brother and I have been writing it for over four years at this point) that I think would be fairly popular (for an indie film that is ), but I'm not sure how to research selling it. To be honest, I don't really want to sell it, but I might want to try selling the next film I make (if it's good, that is!). I really hope that this isn't outlandish or anything. I know that creating a film that people would want to buy is hard work and takes enormous talent, but this is something I've been wondering about for a while now, so I thought I'd just ask now and get it out of the way.

So, here are my questions...

If I shoot the whole movie with a consumer camcorder (like the Canon HF S100), would I legally be allowed to sell the finished film?

If I compose and create the entire soundtrack by myself (with some help from friends), would I legally be allowed to sell the finished film? Also, what does it take to copyright music and a film so that nobody else can copy it or its content?

If I make sure not to show trademarked products and create my own false products with false brands ("Weerios" instead of "Cheerios", for example), would I be able to legally sell the finished film?

If I shoot the green screen parts of my movie in my basement, would I legally be able to sell my film without obtaining a permit from the town/city, or do I need to do that no matter what?

If I do all of the above (and anything else that I've forgotten at the moment), would I legally be able to sell my film?

Also, what would be the best way to sell my film? I've heard that digital distribution may be a good route (iTunes, Amazon, etc.,), although people would be able to pirate it a LOT easier than if I just sold DVDs off of a website (although that would probably be more expensive in the long run since I'd have to pay for mass disc production), but what do you guys think? Who here has had experience in selling their own film?

And perhaps my biggest question of all....
Do lawyers need to be involved?

Thanks to any and all who respond!

-Yodaman

 

[2001 Productions]

Wow, Yoda, I hope reading this forum hasn't made you ultra-paranoid!

1. I don't know where you might've gotten the idea that shooting a movie with a consumer camcorder violated any kind of law, but the answer is yes, of course you can legally sell it.

2. Same thing here, why would you think you wouldn't be able to sell it? If it's wholly original work, you own it and may do as you please with it.

3. Again, yes, of course.

4. You don't need permits for shooting on private property, you only need written permission from the owner of the property. And you only need permits in public areas if the local statutes say you do. Where I live you don't need them, for example.

5. Yes.

6. Ah, this is the million dollar question. If I knew the answer to that I'd be a rich man.

7. Lawyers probably will be involved if you actually sell your film. This isn't a bad thing. Some of them will be on your side, trying to help you get the best deal.

Relax, dude! You still have a few freedoms in the USA!

 

[Blade_Jones]

You are trying to do something that you know nothing about. You need to read books like "the Pocket Lawyer for Fimmakers" just for starters. Get release forms signed for everything. I'll tackle a few of your questions though...

Don't sweat getting a release from yourself. You are not going to sue yourself. LOL.

Make sure to get releases from cast, crew, art department, dp, director, editor, animations editor, box cover designer, etc. Anyone who contributes "art" should sign a release. No verbal contracts with anyone. They should all be doing "work for hire" as defined by US copyright law. This is all in the wording of the release form.

If you pay money to rent a location, then get a release form for that just to be safe. Even without a release there is consideration (money paid) and you would have proof of that because you paid them in the form of a check. If you sneak onto locations to shoot, they can only sue you for what they should have been paid for location rental. They cannot sue you for copyright infringement or any of that punitive stuff.

Know what you're getting into before you spend your own money. Very ill-advised to invest in a movie.
http://www.yourinvestmentadvise.com/filmmaking.htm

I've heard that digital distribution may be a good route (iTunes, Amazon, etc.,)

You heard wrong. iTunes and Amazon's digital stores are GREAT for audio album sales, but HORRID for movie sales at this point in time. Distributors like Tunecore.com are charging $750 to get set up to sell your digital movie on iTunes and Amazon's digital store. Not sure who is making all that money. The future of movie sales will be digital -- It's just not there yet.

If you entrust anyone with money or the right to collect money then you definitely need a lawyer!
http://www.yourinvestmentadvise.com/film-investing.htm

 

[Yodaman]

Wow, Yoda, I hope reading this forum hasn't made you ultra-paranoid!

Hehe, no, in fact it's done pretty much the opposite. Those are all paranoid questions I've had for the last few years and haven't been able to find out much about.

1. I don't know where you might've gotten the idea that shooting a movie with a consumer camcorder violated any kind of law, but the answer is yes, of course you can legally sell it.

2. Same thing here, why would you think you wouldn't be able to sell it? If it's wholly original work, you own it and may do as you please with it.

1)-I once read in an old camcorder manual that it was "illegal" to sell anything recorded with the consumer camcorder (it's a JVC MiniDV tape based camcorder), so I thought I'd ask and just make sure.

2)-I should rephrase that question; I know that I'd be able to sell it, but what would it take to copyright everything? Would it cost to get everything copyrighted?

Lawyers probably will be involved if you actually sell your film. This isn't a bad thing. Some of them will be on your side, trying to help you get the best deal

Coolness.

You are trying to do something that you know nothing about.

Which is exactly why I'm posting my questions here.

Like I said, I'm not planning on selling the film I mentioned in my first post; I'm just curious about the process because eventually I will want to sell my films. If I sell anything at all from this project, it will be the soundtrack, but I doubt even that will happen.

You need to read books like "the Pocket Lawyer for Fimmakers" just for starters. Get release forms signed for everything.

Very true. I'm going to look at my local library to see what they have on the subject. Hopefully I'll find good books to read.

Thanks for the responses guys!

 

[Blade_Jones]

Which is exactly why I'm posting my questions here.

I'm not trying to throw insults. I'm just saying that a lot of people lose a lot of money making their own films, and there are misconceptions about making indie movies. Usually the first film is a mistake... a learning experience. With the industry becoming so fragmented more and more people are 1 and done. The odds are really stacked against you. Better to sell your script to a company than to do it yourself. Get your foot in the door that way.

Lawyers probably will be involved if you actually sell your film. This isn't a bad thing. Some of them will be on your side, trying to help you get the best deal

Don't sign any traditional distribution contract without a lawyer. Too many people sign "dummy" contracts and get reamed-for-life. For most indie filmmakers who don't have a "hit", you don't want to deal with a traditional distributor anyway. If you don't have something that Best Buy and Wal-Mart might actually stock in significant numbers (highly unlikely) then there is no need for a traditional distributor. Amazon will sell anything from anyone via their Advantage program. Use FilmBaby if you want to get into NetFlix's system, although they pay no royalties (bad).

 

[2001 Productions]

1)-I once read in an old camcorder manual that it was "illegal" to sell anything recorded with the consumer camcorder (it's a JVC MiniDV tape based camcorder), so I thought I'd ask and just make sure.

Wow, that's amazing! How the heck they would think that was enforceable is beyond me! If you can find a copy of that on the Internet I'd love to read it.

(It just occurred to me that this would be like the manufacturer of a musical instrument saying it was illegal to sell any music played on that instrument. Absurd!)

2)-I should rephrase that question; I know that I'd be able to sell it, but what would it take to copyright everything? Would it cost to get everything copyrighted?

In the US, every original work is automatically protected by copyright the instant it is created. No further action is required on your part. If you feel the need to register it to establish a date of creation you can do that. I can't give you specific instructions on how or where because I've never bothered. If someone's gonna rip me off they'll do it whether or not I've paid $20 (or whatever it costs) to the Copyright Office, so I might as well save my money.

 

[Yodaman]

@2001:

Here's what the online PDF file of the JVC camcorder manual (on page 3/48) says:

http://resources.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/91/LYT1653-001B-EN.pdf

It really just says that you need permission to use the product commercially, as it's really only intended for private use. So technically there's no law against selling something recorded with it if it's your original content.

In the US, every original work is automatically protected by copyright the instant it is created. No further action is required on your part. If you feel the need to register it to establish a date of creation you can do that. I can't give you specific instructions on how or where because I've never bothered. If someone's gonna rip me off they'll do it whether or not I've paid $20 (or whatever it costs) to the Copyright Office, so I might as well save my money.

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Like you said, it doesn't seem to be required that you file for a copyright since everything is already automatically copyrighted, but they do prefer it if you do want to officially copyright it. However, it's pretty easy to put "Copyright ©2010 Blah blah Productions/Studios/John Doe" on the bottom of a webpage or end of the movie credits yourself, so...yeah. I'll just save myself the $35 then (unless I do have to file for a copyright for some reason).

A bit of a random yet related question; how do you create a digital music album that displays cover art and all of that jazz? I know it's all got to do with meta data and all of that stuff (I know this from working with music software), but how do you create a digital "CD album" that can be played independently on an iPod or Zune? Do you have to contact a record company to do that or something?

 

[2001 Productions]

It really just says that you need permission to use the product commercially, as it's really only intended for private use. So technically there's no law against selling something recorded with it if it's your original content.

Hmm...it's poorly worded, but I think it's actually meant to discourage people from recording shows and concerts, potentially violating copyright, rather than saying you can't use the camera for any commercial purposes. They just want to protect themselves from lawsuits if somebody smuggles it into a theater, for example, and pirates a movie. If I'm wrong about that it'll be news to me. In truth it's none of JVC's business how the camera is used.

 

[directorik]

What I read on the “Read This First!” page is:

Remember that this camcorder is intended
for private consumer use only.
Any commercial use without proper permission
is prohibited. (Even if you record an event such
as a show, performance or exhibition for
personal enjoyment, it is strongly
recommended that you obtain permission
beforehand.)

It’s poorly written so I can understand why it COULD be understood
that the camera itself can only be used by private use. But what
this is actually saying is, if you record a show, performance or
exhibition you should get permission. Even if you are recording
these for your own enjoyment.

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Like you said, it doesn't seem to be required that you file for a copyright since everything is already automatically copyrighted, but they do prefer it if you do want to officially copyright it. However, it's pretty easy to put "Copyright ©2010 Blah blah Productions/Studios/John Doe" on the bottom of a webpage or end of the movie credits yourself, so...yeah. I'll just save myself the $35 then (unless I do have to file for a copyright for some reason).

Since you are asking about selling a finished film, no sales agent or
distributor will consider your finished film without proof of copyright.
This is one of the many, legal, aspects of selling a film that first timers
misunderstand.

Preparing a film to be sold is going to cost money. Saving a few bucks
by not registering the copyright isn't worth it.

 

[2001 Productions]

Since you are asking about selling a finished film, no sales agent or
distributor will consider your finished film without proof of copyright.
This is one of the many, legal, aspects of selling a film that first timers
misunderstand.

Preparing a film to be sold is going to cost money. Saving a few bucks
by not registering the copyright isn't worth it.

FWIW, I've never once been asked about copyright registration by any distributor, not even the one that ended up handling my film. They just wanted assurance that I owned all the content. And, of course, the copyright notice at the end.

Having said that, I was responding to the op's original question about music, specifically, rather than the finished film. I agree that it's worth a few extra bucks before the final film enters into distribution to register it, but not each bit of it such as script, music, what-have-you.

 

[directorik]

I have been asked. Every time. But I guess I need to rephrase:

Some distributors do not ask to show proof that you (the
filmmaker) own the copyright. I have, so I suggest spending
the money to provide that proof if necessary. But is seems that
simply putting the notice at the end is good enough.

Nice to learn something new!

 

[2001 Productions]

I'd be interested to know, actually, how the Copyright Office registration provides proof of ownership. If I send them my movie to be registered do they take any steps to ensure that I'm not ripping off anyone else, or do they just assign it a number and call it good?

This is not intended as a sarcastic question, btw, I'm legitimately curious. I've never registered anything with the Copyright Office so I don't know the particulars of how it works. I just assumed they assigned a date to the thing in case of legal action concerning an alleged infringement. Is there more to it?

edit: In the case of my film, I was given a contract to sign which contained language confirming that I owned all rights to the material and would be guilty of fraud if that were not the case.

 

[Morris]

Copyrights

I haven't dealt with them for years, but I believe they only keep them on record as proof in case there is a dispute in the future.
The main reason you want to have a copyright, is that you can sue someone if they violate it. I do not believe you could obtain a legal remedy unless you have one. As long as you put a notice on your film, you could obtain one later. However, I don't think you could obtain money for anyone violating it prior to an official copyright.

 

[Ernest Worthing]

Copyright comes into place as soon as u create an original piece of work.

Say i make an original short, it is copyrighted as soon as it comes into existence. i can even put the little c on it. Registering it is a different matter. But u do not lose your copyright just bc u did not register it.

I would advise that you be prepared to provide proof that the material is urs if it ever comes to that. Which u should have anyway.

Say, i rip off your short movie even if u did not register it and put the little c on it. You sue me, in court i show up with the video, you show up with ur video, ur behind the scenes, ur actors saying they worked for u, ur notes, ur script, ur raw footage etc etc.

 

[2001 Productions]

I do not believe you could obtain a legal remedy unless you have one. As long as you put a notice on your film, you could obtain one later. However, I don't think you could obtain money for anyone violating it prior to an official copyright.

Actually, US copyright applies automatically upon creation of a tangible work and is 100% legally binding. If you can prove a violation in court you have every right to a settlement, whether or not the work is registered with the Copyright Office.

That's kinda why I haven't worried too much about it with my films. I have all the original uncut footage, releases, actors' testimonies, etc. to bring to court. Someone who tries to rip off my film has none of that and wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

edit: yep, Ernest and I were writing at the same time.

 

[Ernest Worthing]

edit: yep, Ernest and I were writing at the same time.

lol. well great minds.... err... write posts at the same time...

 

[Morris]

Actually, US copyright applies automatically upon creation of a tangible work and is 100% legally binding. If you can prove a violation in court you have every right to a settlement, whether or not the work is registered with the Copyright Office.

That's kinda why I haven't worried too much about it with my films. I have all the original uncut footage, releases, actors' testimonies, etc. to bring to court. Someone who tries to rip off my film has none of that and wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

edit: yep, Ernest and I were writing at the same time.

My interpretation is different.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap4.html#411
§ 411. Registration and civil infringement actions11
(a) Except for an action brought for a violation of the rights of the author under section 106A(a), and subject to the provisions of subsection (b),no civil action for infringement of the copyright in any United States work shall be instituted until preregistration or registration of the copyright claim has been made in accordance with this title. In any case, however, where the deposit, application, and fee required for registration have been delivered to the Copyright Office in proper form and registration has been refused, the applicant is entitled to institute a civil action for infringement if notice thereof, with a copy of the complaint, is served on the Register of Copyrights. The Register may, at his or her option, become a party to the action with respect to the issue of registrability of the copyright claim by entering an appearance within sixty days after such service, but the Register’s failure to become a party shall not deprive the court of jurisdiction to determine that issue.

(b) (b)(1) A certificate of registration satisfies the requirements of this section and section 412, regardless of whether the certificate contains any inaccurate information, unless—

(A) the inaccurate information was included on the application for copyright registration with knowledge that it was inaccurate; and

(B) the inaccuracy of the information, if known, would have caused the Register of Copyrights to refuse registration.

§ 106A. Rights of certain authors to attribution and integrity39
(a

 

[2001 Productions]

It would appear I was misinformed. Thanks for the correction! Very good to know!