editing Question about audio export format.

[harmonica44]

I have been helping editing my friend's movie. After I edit the audio all together and sync it up, I then send off the tracks to an audio engineer who cleans it up, and does all the crossfading, and creates surround sound out of it, etc.

But she's having a lot of trouble because once I export a track to H.264, which I was told to do, the track cannot be changed. All the tracks are stereo, with the left track full, and the right track empty, since that's what the field recorder was only able to do, was stereo. Some of the tracks in the editing have the right channel filled as well, and have been 'nested'. So some tracks have both channels filled and some only one. When it comes to surround sound as well, some of the tracks, need to have the noise come out on the right channel instead of the left, but the channels cannot be swapped, once exported.

So once I export the editing, put it on a datacard and send it off to her, she cannot make the tracks with sound on both channels, match the tracks with the sound on only one channel. Once the tracks are exported out of Premiere Pro, they cannot be changed. Is there any format I can export them on, or give them to her where you can still fill channels, empty channels, and swap channels afterward?

 

[harmonica44]

There's a possibility that she doesn't know what she wants as well. If she's just been handed stuff to work with in the past, she may only know what she's been given, not how it got there. What software will she be using for the primary sound edit?

Pro Tools, the audio engineer using, and After Effects for visual effects I think. As far as production supervisor, we are all the production supervisors trying to do what's best. It's my friend's production but we are only 3 people, and we are not sure what the best video format, so she asked me if I could ask that site, that I have joined, which is this site.

As far as what I have been used to editing it's 24p at 1080p for video. HDV. Is this good? But it does not list HDV as an export option.

 

[Alcove Audio]

You need one person as the central coordinator, otherwise you end up with confusion and working at cross purposes.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Well I talked to her directly finally, and she said she wants the files in wav for the audio, and mov for the video FX work. But my program doesn't seem to list those options. However the audio files are in wav, since that's what FR2-LE recorder does. And the video filmes are in mov, since that's what my Canon T2i does. So I assume I am able to export them in their original formats, right?

H44 she hasn't told you anything! It's extremely rare that an audio person will want anything other than wav format audio files, so you can assume without asking wav will always be the audio file format wanted. Mov tells you nothing either because mov is not a video format but a video container. In a quicktime (.mov) file you can use a wide variety of video codecs (from H264 to ProRes HQ). An OMF/AAF is also a container but it is a container which maintains all your individual audio tracks, all your audio files and also all your individual audio edits.

As no one appears to be playing the role of Post Production Supervisor, you'll need to speak to her again and ask what video format she wants in the quicktime file and ask how she wants the wav files delivered; OMF, AAF, linked or embedded. As I said at the start of my first post, unless you've mis-heard or misunderstood, my guess is that she's never done audio post before and doesn't know any of this stuff. Her answers to you so far are good proof of this because knowing what an OMF or AAF is and how to deal with them is really rule 1, lesson 1 in the practise of audio post. If she can't deal with an OMF or AAF your only two remaining options are the ones I gave in my first post, both of which are far from ideal.

There is another, even more important consequence of her not knowing what she's doing: There is practically no chance of her creating a decent 5.1 mix and every chance that she will produce a virtually unusable 5.1 mix! Is this 5.1 mix a theatrical 5.1 mix (for film festivals) or a DVD/HDTV 5.1 mix? If she doesn't know the difference then your friend's movie could be in a lot of trouble!

G

 

[harmonica44]

We are aiming for the film festival mix so I will be sure to let her know that. I'll give the audio person OMF. Well she is hired now, and has done two shorts before, so I assume she must know something. Which video codec is the best though? You said that an H.264 video file is required for the locked edit, but I have been told before that H.264 is bad quality. Sometimes the color grading goes creates smudges and I was told it's because H.264 is too compressed, and therefore should export something of higher quality.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Yeah but my program does not list wav as export. She is asking for it and I cannot give it to her. What then?

Sorry, I can tell you a lot about ProTools but I can't tell you how to use your NLE software. In feature film it would be the Assistant Picture Editor who would handle the export from the NLE to the audio post team. As you are presumably also acting as the Assistant Picture Editor, it's your job to know! All I can tell you is that there must be a way to export wavs and export them contained in an OMF or AAF because if Premiere couldn't do this it would be unusable for most professional workflows. Maybe try a search on google or any Premiere user or support forums.

As far as what I have been used to editing it's 24p at 1080p for video. HDV. Is this good? But it does not list HDV as an export option.

Only she can tell you what format of video she needs because it depends how she is playing the video out of ProTools! In many workflows H264 is used for transferring the video because of it's small file size but you can't really use H264 video well in ProTools and the usual workflow is to transcode the H264 into ProRes or DNxHD. But, there are various other options and she needs to tell you which one she needs! As the editor, you are not supposed to know how her ProTools setup works, any more than she is supposed to know how your NLE works.

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Just seen your edit:

We are aiming for the film festival mix so I will be sure to let her know that.

I don't believe that "letting her know that" will be of much use. Unless she really knows what she is doing it's most likely a 5.1 mix will sound good in her studio but terrible or probably un-listenable in a cinema. There are many more ways to fuck-up a 5.1 mix than there are to fuck-up a stereo mix and this is even more true with 5.1 for theatrical playback. I advise (in the strongest terms possible!) that she creates a 3.0 mix for festival use rather than a 5.1 mix!! If a 5.1 mix is imperative for your friend, he/she will have to get someone who knows what they're doing.

Well she is hired now, and has done two shorts before, so I assume she must know something.

Not on the evidence so far. Being able to specify an OMF or AAF or which video format she needs is the absolute basics of audio post because without them you can't even start, let alone hope for a good or accurate end product. Everything she has said so far just reinforces what I said in my first post: "I have to say, this is all sounding like a recipe for disaster."!

G

 

[harmonica44]

Well I am no expert, I am just doing the best I can to help out friends. Plus a lot of people have something different to say. There seems to be no absolution in what to do. She can do OMF and Premiere Pro can as well. It can do OMF and AAF. But she is also putting in visual effects so she needs the highest video quality so when then have the highest quality copy with the FX in. h.264 doesn't seem to be high enough. Even if she uses that for pro tools, she still needs a higher quality one when she does the VFX in after effects, so which one should we give her? MPEG4, H.264 blue ray? I want to know and know it's my job, but I cannot possibly know if no one will tell me, and every website has something different to say.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

But she is also putting in visual effects so she needs the highest video quality so when then have the highest quality copy with the FX in. h.264 doesn't seem to be high enough. Even if she uses that for pro tools, she still needs a higher quality one when she does the VFX in after effects, so which one should we give her? MPEG4, H.264 blue ray? I want to know and know it's my job, but I cannot possibly know if no one will tell me, and every website has something different to say.

I thought I explained clearly that it is not your job to know and in fact there is NO WAY you could know! There are many different ways of getting video out of ProTools (Blackmagic Cards, Mojo, V10, Canopus, internal graphics processor, etc.) and many different workflows, many of which may require small file sizes for transferring the video. This is why you have found so many different answers, because there are so many different systems and workflows! Which transfer format she needs and which format she uses in her ProTools timeline is therefore not something you can know but something she must tell you depending on her setup and her workflow.

Of course, all this is for audio post, VFX is something entirely different with entirely different requirements. It seems now that she is not an audio post specialist but maybe a VFX specialist who also does some audio post or a "jack of all trades". On the face of it, your friend has hired very un-wisely. One of the first questions (at the very low budget level) to ask someone you are intending to employ for audio post is what deliverables they require. If they are unable to answer this most basic of technical questions you can be confident they have little or no idea what they are doing and confident therefore that they are going to cause nightmares and produce very poor or unusable quality work!

G

 

[AcousticAl]

Wow. I'm simply amazed.

It's quite obvious that the OP is working on a non-pro-level production. We're talking about a 3-person team, no post-production supervisor, and none of them really experienced in what "professional" workflows are all about. Yes, it would be helpful (and should have been appointed at the start) to have a central supervisor to make crucial decisions and to streamline communication, but we're obviously past that now. Instead of truly helpful information for the circumstances, harmonica44 is being beaten down with would've/could've/should've and lots of tongue lashings about what is who's job to know which technical piece.

The big picture here is that those are all lessons for the next project, but right now we have an inexperienced editor and an inexperienced audio post engineer/VFX person (two previous shorts doesn't qualify one as "experienced", especially considering how little she's able to tell you about what files to send). They're already deep into this and trying to figure it out.

So, in an effort to do something helpful:

1) The comment that h.264 is typically used to move files for VFX seems odd to me. Heavily compressing a file, only to transcode it back to a higher codec for major image manipulation... that is a recipe for bad things. You cannot afford to lose that much data for VFX and compositing. You've shot and edited as HDV, and that's not a codec you want to deal with in AE. It's a compressed, long-GOP codec. You'll want to find a better codec for export, something that's a high-quality HD, either uncompressed or "lossless". You probably don't have ProRes, but do you have AVID DNxHD? If not, it's a free codec to download. Talk to your other person, and ask her what codecs she has available. Pick the one that is the least compressed, and that her computer can still handle. If neither of you have DNxHD, it may be worth downloading.

2) The comment that h.264 cannot be used with ProTools is also odd. My go-to Compressor pre-set, when I'm prepping a reference video for my own ProTools projects, is h.264 at 50% frame size and 50% quality. Of course, I'm only using the video player window within PT, but it works flawlessly. I'm going to make an assumption here that the ProTools person in question here does not use an external video display with PT. harmonica44, correct me if I'm wrong (that's a question you'll have to ask your sound editor). So h.264 as a reference file for PT may be just right. Of course, if you're sending her a copy in a better codec for VFX, she can always transcode that file herself to whatever she wants/needs in ProTools.

3) You say you can export both OMF and AAF. Do we know which version of ProTools she's using? If it's an older version of LE (9 and lower) with the DV ToolKit (which includes OMF Tool), she can only open OMF. If it's PT10 or PT HD 10, she can open AAF as well. If it's a choice between the two interchange formats, AAF is better.

4) Unless your ProTools person has a calibrated room and lots of experience in 5.1, I'd ditch the surround mix and go for straight stereo. There's rarely a justifiable reason for a 5.1 mix on shorts anyway, and sometimes even features don't really need it. Plus, it's another place that things can go drastically wrong. I edited (read: cleaned up and finished the edit after the first editor bailed) an indie feature a few years ago and the Producer hired a very inexperienced person to do the audio post, who was really a composer who had done the score but said he could do the mix as well. Trying to explain to the composer what OMF was to deliver him the edit was interesting, though he finally looked into it and realized he could open an OMF. Against my advice to the Producer, the guy did a 5.1 mix and no stereo mix. Worse, the tracks were all out of alignment. I ended up having to do the entire audio post process from scratch in my ProTools suite.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

2) The comment that h.264 cannot be used with ProTools is also odd.

I did not say that H264 cannot be used in ProTools. H264 can run flawlessly in ProTools but frequently doesn't, potential problems include; inaccurate sync, heavy CPU usage, problems with playback jumping and problems scrubbing. None of these potential problems exist with some other codecs such as DNxHD, which is a free to download codec anyway. Can you use H264 video in ProTools? Yes. Should you? No!

4) Unless your ProTools person has a calibrated room and lots of experience in 5.1, I'd ditch the surround mix and go for straight stereo.

As I've explained elsewhere, when screening a film in a cinema (at a film festival for example), two channel stereo is the worst possible audio format! 5.1 is also likely to be pretty bad if you don't know what you're doing, which is why I suggested a 3.0 mix.

I'm not sure we're going to be of much help to others here on indietalk if even us audio guys cannot agree on technical basics!

G

 

[PaulGriffith]

2) The comment that h.264 cannot be used with ProTools is also odd.

ProTools has a history of not getting along well with H.264. Some of the ProTools audio mixers (as in people) I've worked with can handle any H.264, others complain and I have to send them 7 or 8 different H.264 encodes with different settings in order to find one that will play. It's most likely a codec issue on their end, if they download Perian or a codec pack it would probably fix it, but try explaining that to an audio guy . The safest export presets I've used for Protools out of Premiere for the video track are the h.264 AppleTV presets.

Now Harmonica, almost all of us are on the same page here, we know what we're talking about. Do this, it will work, and problem will be solved:

1. Export the sequence as an OMF (File > Export > OMF).
2. In the options, title it whatever you want, leave the Sample rate and BPS at 48000hz and 16 unless you're working insomething weird. Leave the files drop doen as "Seperate Audio", change the format form AIFF to WAV because your audio engineer asked for that, then set the "Handle Frames" at the bottom to 48.
3. After that renders, export the sequence again only this time go to (File > Export > Media).
4. Set the format to H.264
5. Set the Preset to "Apple TV 720p"
6. I know it's a 1080 project, that's fine, they can mix with any resolution.
7. leave all settings alone except "Output Name", Name it along the lines of "PROJECTTITLE_EditLock_TodaysDate_VideoTrackForAudio_720p_.MP4" and be sure to put it in the same folder with the project file and all of the 80,000 audio tracks premiere made for you during the OMF Export.
8. Compress the folder, send it via WeTransfer.com, or, if too big, snail mail a ghard drive, Data DVD, thumb stick etc with all info or even meet in person.
9. Post back here saying "Thanks guys, that worked. Your help is really valuable and I appreciate the time taken out of each of your days to help me in this new process."

 

[PaulGriffith]

I forgot to add, when the Audio mix is finished she will send you a mastered track(s) back in WAV format that should line up exactly with your project. You then marry it to the video and THEN worry about final export formats for online or DVD or whatever you're doing with it.

If she is doing a surround mix, I'd ask here for a dumbed-down stereo mix as well for your online formats. You can also dual-audoi track the DVD so people can pick what they want to watch it as, but definitely keep the Festival Playback format in surround.

 

[mlesemann]

I generally stay out of these audio discussions, as I am NOT (and do not want to be) an audio expert.
But I do have something to offer re stereo sound in a theater.

Since August, my indie feature has screened in multiple movie theaters at festival (including in California, Washington state, Florida, Toronto, and Munich). The sound is in stereo - I can't tell you more than that off hand but it's definitely not surround.

It has always sounded anywhere between very good and great, depending on the sound system in each theater. Sometimes it's been blu ray, and twice it was HD Cam.

I don't doubt that an audio expert who watched/listened would hear the imperfections. But for those of us in the audience (including the director) it was fine as is.

FYI in terms of looking for a distribution deal - while I would certainly love an art house cinema release, my more realistic expectations are more towards VOD/itunes/dvd and possibly cable tv.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I agree with what Paul said! I would advise you export with a bit depth of 24bit rather than 16bit as Paul suggested in #2.

BTW Paul, ProTools plays very nicely with AIFF files, in some cases better than with the WAV format. And, I personally would much prefer the video in 1080p if that is the editing/distribution format, as I project the video on to a large screen (about 15ft wide). Virtually all the other pros I know also project or use a large TV, so again 1080 is better, however running video on the same computer monitor as ProTools the resolution and size can be much lower/smaller. That's why it's better to ask.

ProTools has a history of not getting along well with H.264. Some of the ProTools audio mixers (as in people) I've worked with can handle any H.264, others complain and I have to send them 7 or 8 different H.264 encodes with different settings in order to find one that will play. It's most likely a codec issue on their end, if they download Perian or a codec pack it would probably fix it, but try explaining that to an audio guy .

I'm not sure what it is. I've had problems on some systems and not on others, even with Perian and the correct codecs installed. IMO, H264 is great for internet distribution but just isn't so good as a format where editing is involved, as I've also seen H264 cause problems in other audio software. I usually get delivered a H264 and then transcode it to Prores. I stick the H264 on a video track but then disable and hide the track and only use it when running off a test mix for client feedback. The prores file sits on my satellite linked protools system with a genlocked BM card outputting the video. This type of setup is common at the higher end audio post facilities but you're unlikely to come across it in the very low budget sector.

If she is doing a surround mix, I'd ask here for a dumbed-down stereo mix as well for your online formats.

To be honest a stereo version is not really needed if you've got a 5.1 mix. Even if the person listening doesn't have a 5.1 system, the 5.1 mix will be automatically downmixed by their computer/TV/AV Receiver into stereo. It's rather strange that all the broadcasters I know require a stereo mix in their list of HD deliverables yet this stereo mix is never broadcast in a HDTV signal?!

G

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

"I forgot to add, when the Audio mix is finished she will send you a mastered track(s) back in WAV format that should line up exactly with your project. You then marry it to the video and THEN worry about final export formats for online or DVD or whatever you're doing with it. "

Some audio guys will send it back with a "2 pop" for sync, but IMO not a big deal. As was noted above. They should have it set to 00:00 on the time line so you just put it at zero and it should be synced.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Since August, my indie feature has screened in multiple movie theaters at festival (including in California, Washington state, Florida, Toronto, and Munich). The sound is in stereo - I can't tell you more than that off hand but it's definitely not surround... It has always sounded anywhere between very good and great, depending on the sound system in each theater. Sometimes it's been blu ray, and twice it was HD Cam.

The problem with stereo in a cinema is because of something called the Haas effect. What this means is that unless you are sitting in a theatre along the centre line (between the speakers) the sound will appear to be only coming out of the speaker you are sitting closest to. Usually this effect reaches it's maximum when you are about 10ft from the centre line. It's more than a little off putting to see an actor talking in the centre of the screen but to have his voice coming from 20ft away at the edge of the screen. This is why stereo has never been an acceptable format in cinemas and why a centre speaker (channel) is so vital.

It may just be that you have sat in the centre of the cinema and therefore haven't experienced the Haas effect or it's vaguely possible you didn't notice how drastic and off putting the effect can be as it can vary depending on the size and shape of the cinema. But generally, it's way more serious than just something an audio engineer would notice, maybe someone who is deaf in one ear might not notice though!

G

 

[mlesemann]

In the theater in Munich (most recent screening) I was in the stage left seat ( so far end), 2nd row.

I don't doubt that you're right about the issue, I just know that I didn't notice it.

Maybe others did and were simply too polite to say so

 

[AudioPostExpert]

In the theater in Munich (most recent screening) I was in the stage left seat ( so far end), 2nd row. I just know that I didn't notice it.

Seeing an actor in the centre of the screen and hearing his voice coming from the edge of the screen 20ft or 30ft away is NOT a subtle effect. Maybe there was an automatic upmix or some other trick applied at the cinema to route the centre panned material in the stereo mix to the centre speaker. This happens sometimes in the TV broadcast world but I haven't heard of it being done in a cinema. Although the music and TV industries eventually moved from mono to stereo, cinema sound never did, it went from mono straight to multi-channel formats and jumped stereo because it can't be made to work in a cinema.

Some audio guys will send it back with a "2 pop" for sync, but IMO not a big deal. As was noted above. They should have it set to 00:00 on the time line so you just put it at zero and it should be synced.

Unfortunately the 2 pop seems to be dying out, which is a shame as it's a useful safety check. The 2 pop is always placed precisely 2 seconds before the FFOA (First Frame Of Action), so 48 frames before the FFOA in film, 60 frames for NTSC and 50 frames for PAL. A Tail Pop is the same thing but 2 secs after the LFOA (Last Frame Of Action).

If you want to do it correctly, have a 10 sec leader and place 1 frame of white at 2 secs before the FFAO. On every track in your OMF/AAF you should have 1 frame of 1kHz tone @ -20dBFS. In audio post or when the audio post people deliver the final mix back to the picture editor, if the pop doesn't sync with the flash on playback you immediately know you've got a misalignment or sync issue.

G

 

[Alcove Audio]

It's quite obvious that the OP is working on a non-pro-level production. We're talking about a 3-person team, no post-production supervisor, and none of them really experienced in what "professional" workflows are all about.

There still needs to be one central person to take charge of the post process, even if it is just the director or editor. And the very first job is the time to start understanding and applying professional work flows. You'll screw up a lot and put them in the lessons learned category, but you should always treat your current project as if you had been hired to work on Spielbergs latest; that is the eventual goal, after all...

 

[knightly]

My lesson learned category (as I'm sure most of the other folks giving the same advice here) is sizeable and came from much the same process you're looking to do right now.