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Question about audio export format.

H

harmonica44

I have been helping editing my friend's movie. After I edit the audio all together and sync it up, I then send off the tracks to an audio engineer who cleans it up, and does all the crossfading, and creates surround sound out of it, etc.

But she's having a lot of trouble because once I export a track to H.264, which I was told to do, the track cannot be changed. All the tracks are stereo, with the left track full, and the right track empty, since that's what the field recorder was only able to do, was stereo. Some of the tracks in the editing have the right channel filled as well, and have been 'nested'. So some tracks have both channels filled and some only one. When it comes to surround sound as well, some of the tracks, need to have the noise come out on the right channel instead of the left, but the channels cannot be swapped, once exported.

So once I export the editing, put it on a datacard and send it off to her, she cannot make the tracks with sound on both channels, match the tracks with the sound on only one channel. Once the tracks are exported out of Premiere Pro, they cannot be changed. Is there any format I can export them on, or give them to her where you can still fill channels, empty channels, and swap channels afterward?
 
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H.264 is a video format bro... Yes it includes audio, but that's like sending the whole car to someone who wants tires.

If they want to be able to edit the audio, you need to export it as an OMF. It's in your export option in premiere. If it's a huge project, select the option to add tails to the clips and give them a couple seconds, if it's not that big just export entire clips. OMF is a project format that pretty much every popular DAW will be able to work with.
 
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Worst case: you can send them the edited h.264, then give them all of the audio files/footage to rebuild the sound from scratch -- but they'll despise you for not sending them OMFs of it. They should have access to all of the raw audio though in well labeled files (Scene # Shot # Take # that matches the footage you're using -- we're working in a group now, so we have to document things rather than just keeping it organized in our heads). If it's not currently that way, you may want to take the time to name everything appropriately. I'd turn down jobs (or charge substantially more) that didn't have their files organized with a consistent naming convention that made wading through it manageable.
 
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I can only assume that you have misunderstood her delivery instructions or she has never worked with sound to picture before.

Usually the best option is what is called a linked AAF. AAF is a similar but newer and slightly better version of OMF and linked means that all the audio files are not contained in the AAF file itself but are contained in a separate folder and just referenced in the AAF file. A separate H264 quicktime video file will also be required of the locked-off edit and it's a good idea to embed in that H264 the rough (guide) mix you have created, just for reference purposes. Failing that an embedded OMF (or AAF) with at least 2 second handles, as mentioned by PaulGriffith. Always though either a linked or embedded OMF or AAF is what is required. The only other 2 options are: 1. To export all of your tracks as wav files, although they will all have to be edited and split up to make mixing possible or 2. Export all your dialogue and sound effects as individual wav files, although they will all have to be re-sync'ed manually. Either option not only costs considerable extra time and therefore considerably more money (as Knightly said) but is likely to run into other problems. Exactly which route to audio post/mixing you take really must be clearly defined by your mix engineer but I cannot believe that anyone even new to the business would ask for the audio to be delivered in H264 format.

The second problem I have with your post is her converting what you've done into a surround mix. Dialogue and Foley is mono, so putting them in the surround sound field is usually quite straight forward but what about the other 5 channels of sound, what's she going to put in those? She can't just spread your stereo sound FX, ambiances, etc., to the other 5 channels, it won't work. A surround mix has to be designed as a surround mix, you can't convert a stereo mix to a surround mix (or rather you can but only under certain circumstances and this isn't one of those circumstances).

I have to say, this is all sounding like a recipe for disaster.

G
 
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There's a missing piece of information here:

What NLE are you using? We cannot make any assumptions, and if you're using FCPX then getting an OMF or AAF out is going to be a problem. There are a few other editing programs that cannot export these files, either.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Oh sorry I forgot. I am using Premiere Pro 5.5.
Click to expand...

Okay, so you need to export an OMF along with a reference video file. Be sure to include ample handles in your OMF, as has been mentioned already. I'd also include a countdown slate in the video, along with a 2-pop on all audio tracks in your Premiere project, just as a safeguard.

Theoretically, nothing should shift when the OMF is imported into ProTools, but I have seen it happen (not through any fault of the software, mind you), and the 2-pop and slate provide another layer of security.
 
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AcousticAl said:
There's a missing piece of information here:

What NLE are you using? We cannot make any assumptions, and if you're using FCPX then getting an OMF or AAF out is going to be a problem. There are a few other editing programs that cannot export these files, either.
Click to expand...

I think it MIGHT have been fixed by updates, but indeed. THE reason everybody ripped X to shreds when it first came out as "iMovie plus". If you can't export OMF or AAF files from an NLE it is NOT a pro grade NLE.
 
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AcousticAl said:
Okay, so you need to export an OMF along with a reference video file. Be sure to include ample handles in your OMF, as has been mentioned already. I'd also include a countdown slate in the video, along with a 2-pop on all audio tracks in your Premiere project, just as a safeguard.

Theoretically, nothing should shift when the OMF is imported into ProTools, but I have seen it happen (not through any fault of the software, mind you), and the 2-pop and slate provide another layer of security.
Click to expand...

Well I talked to her directly finally, and she said she wants the files in wav for the audio, and mov for the video FX work. But my program doesn't seem to list those options. However the audio files are in wav, since that's what FR2-LE recorder does. And the video filmes are in mov, since that's what my Canon T2i does. So I assume I am able to export them in their original formats, right?
 
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harmonica44 said:
Well I talked to her directly finally, and she said she wants the files in wav for the audio, and mov for the video FX work. But my program doesn't seem to list those options. However the audio files are in wav, since that's what FR2-LE recorder does. And the video filmes are in mov, since that's what my Canon T2i does. So I assume I am able to export them in their original formats, right?
Click to expand...

Not sure what, exactly, is under the hood with Premiere (I use FCP7), but when you export an OMF, it includes the audio media and does not convert it out of Premiere. So, unless Premiere has somehow turned them into AIFF files, they should move over to her in the OMF as WAV. And even if they're AIFF now, the conversion is quick and painless as the files are imported into a DAW. OMF keeps all the audio edits in place, in their respective audio tracks, so that they open up in the DAW in the exact same arrangement as in your Premiere timeline.

You need to ask her if she wants an OMF, or if she's really wanting all the source files. Chances are, she wants OMF/AAF.

As for the video, .mov is not a format. It's just a container, a file extension. There can be lots of things inside that .mov shell. If she's doing VFX, you want to give her the best video you can, which means exporting it in the same codec and format as you're using to edit. H.264 is not what you want to use here.
 
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There's a possibility that she doesn't know what she wants as well. If she's just been handed stuff to work with in the past, she may only know what she's been given, not how it got there. What software will she be using for the primary sound edit?
 
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Okay, let's back up a minute...

Who is the post production supervisor? This is the person responsible for coordinating all of the post production pieces. S/he or your supervising sound editor should have been in contact with you and the other audio person to insure that everyone was on the same page.

OMF (Open Media Framework) and AAF (Advanced Authoring Format) are specifically designed so that multiple media formats may be exchanged between the various post production teams. As far as audio goes the entire point of OMF and AAF is so you can transfer files between differing NLE and DAW softwares without the pieces losing time cohesion.


Now, if your post production supervisor isn't doing his/her job it is your responsibility as a sound editor to ask the supervising sound editor/rerecording mixer what format s/he would like when you deliver your work- and his/her job to inform you of the same.

Filmmaking is all about COMMUNICATION, remember? It doesn't apply to just the audience, it also applies to everyone working upon the project.
 
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Harmonica shouldn't have to worry about the picture; the post production supervisor should be supplying, or at least making sure the picture editing department is supplying, the same picture edit to all of the editors involved, both audio and visual.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
Filmmaking is all about COMMUNICATION, remember? It doesn't apply to just the audience, it also applies to everyone working upon the project.
Click to expand...

There was an adage at the TV station where I worked years ago...

"Communication is our business. It's not what we do."

I have a feeling that this is not a production on a level that has a sound supervisor of any kind. Chances are also that the sound mixer/editor hasn't worked above this level and doesn't know the workflow well at all.
 
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I learned about OMF after having to deal with an incorrectly sent project to MYSELF, the sound designer from MYSELF, the editor (and director/producer/cinematographer////). Using the "correct" procedure saves innumerable amounts of time, even if the project never leaves your hands.

I can't imaging how the sound editor you're using is going to piece everything back together without this type of project transfer... she'd have to manually realign every piece of audio she's using to the video you've cut. That's a time killer. Like the time I imported 47 hours of footage incorrectly and had to re-render the whole project after every edit.

These lessons are hard won. Help her out and find out what app she's going to be using so you can get a recommendation as to how to do your import so she won't end up jumping off a bridge.
 
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