Pet Peeve - People Can't Understand "For Credit Only" Requests?

[Graeme]

I'm sure, like many of you I operate on a low-budget/low-budget productions. I'm wondering if this happens only to me, or is it common, and your suggestions on how to avoid such people.

The Scenario:
I'm the producer of a low-budget movie/short. I put up an ad clearly stating "for credit only" and people contact me with services because they want exposure. I find someone I want to work with and contact them to discuss what they are willing to do for the project given that is "for credit only". They explain that they would do x, y, z (such as provide 1 pre-made song, or a few hours of their time to help with editing, etc). Then we get to the written agreement stage (basically to cover each others behinds) and suddenly they stop talking "for credit only" and start demanding extra renumeration, such as: Cash up front, cash on completion, percentage of revenue (where by their percentage is far and excess the amount their work actually represents in the movie), royalty fees, etc.

One Example:
Talked to a local about writing a script for me, they have written a few small unpublished books and a few plays etc. But they are unpublished and have never had something turned into a motion picture. I start talking to them about the possibility they could help me with my next project and they seem very on-board (again for credit only - it would be their first story made into a movie so that is actually worth something to a newcomer vs. seasoned writer) and once I send them my list of available resources, cast number, etc, they turn around and ask for $5000 - far more than I had budgeted for the movie (capital equipment aside). Thats just aggravating...

What gives? This has happen to me quite a number of times in various production tasks. I know I'm asking for something for as close to "free" as possible, but I tend to be very clear from the beginning that there will be no cash in the transaction. Yet I'm still getting people who think they can smile and talk nice to me about my project, seem to go along with the idea but as soon as you get to the written agreement stage they suddenly want cold hard cash, and often more than I would pay for, if I was paying!

Do you have suggestions? Or am I just barking up the wrong tree thinking that credit means something to anyone?

 

[M1chae1]

If they agreed in the beginning for 'credit only' and then get to the table and demand more, you kindly remind them of the original deal. If they continue with demanding more you tell them to go screw.

 

[Graeme]

I agree Micheal, but the number of people I have told them to forget it far exceeds the number who I end up working with, and there are several parts of the film I'm now doing solo because I can't find what I need.

 

[knightly]

Bill them for your wasted producer's time... call it even and get them to work for credit only

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

That will happen with no budget films. I've had hard heads respond to ads I posted for zero/no budget films with no upfront money and ask what is the budget to my face. They don't grasp the concept of zero and no and won't even look it up in the dictionary.

One other thing to do is show you will take on newbies with no experience for screen credit. Don't respond to the ones with 20 years experience. The newbies may be lazy. And, you will have to push them to work sometimes. You will also need eyes in back of your head if you have too many newbies. Because they will need direction and guidance on what to do to work as a team for a shoot.

 

[directorik]

It happens to me often.

The moment someone starts talking about money I politely remind
them there is no money for the work. If they bring it up again, I
thank them for their time and move on.

There is nothing that you can do (no way to post a “better”
notice) to control how people respond.

One other thing to do is show you will take on newbies with no experience for screen credit. Don't respond to the ones with 20 years experience.

Not really the best plan. I very often donate my time and I know
many experienced people who do, too. If you post a notice and
someone like me with 20 years of experience replies you might be
doing yourself a favor by responding. You might risk meeting
someone who then asks for money, but you might meet someone who is
an asset to your project.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Spend some time networking. Work on other people's projects. Find some people you trust.

Or -- pay people.

Preferably both.

 

[M1chae1]

I agree with Rik...it's not the amount of experience you have...it's who the person is, what they believe in, and sometimes it's also their desperation for a role.

 

[gpforet001]

One of the problems is that there is no such thing as zero budget. It's really just a phrase used to get people to work for free. Just because money wasn't budgeted does not mean that money was not spent.

Cameras use tape=$
Audio uses batteries=$
cameras cost money=$$$
audio gear costs money=$$$
gas to get to the shoot=$
electricity to run the editing gear=$
rent/mortgage to pay for the place where editing/equipment storage takes place=$
editing software=$$
DVDs for handouts=$

I have yet to see anyone start without any equipment, decide to make a film, and have a finished film without spending ANY money. It cannot be done.

Here's how I handle people who are looking for audio support for free. I want 10% OWNERSHIP in the finished product. It does not go anywhere without my permission. It cannot be sold, marketed, or viewed without my consent. ANY distribution includes my name as an owner.

Or, you can just pay my low budget rate for location sound recording.

That will happen with no budget films. I've had hard heads respond to ads I posted for zero/no budget films with no upfront money and ask what is the budget to my face. They don't grasp the concept of zero and no and won't even look it up in the dictionary.

One other thing to do is show you will take on newbies with no experience for screen credit. Don't respond to the ones with 20 years experience. The newbies may be lazy. And, you will have to push them to work sometimes. You will also need eyes in back of your head if you have too many newbies. Because they will need direction and guidance on what to do to work as a team for a shoot.

 

[Brooksy]

What helps me is a later return. If I help someone in my area for free they will usually bring me on for a paid gig soon after. Then the word gets around that John Smith will ask you to work for free but get you with a paid gig later. This helps as far as getting great workers and not having them ask for money because they know they will eventually get it later on from you. Maybe start hiring the people who work for free on some pay gigs and get a good reputation going. That can really snow ball.

 

[M1chae1]

Yes, there is no such thing as a no-budget film...

Basically it means the bare essentials, and this does not include paying individuals.

 

[directorik]

Here's how I handle people who are looking for audio support for free. I want 10% OWNERSHIP in the finished product. It does not go anywhere without my permission. It cannot be sold, marketed, or viewed without my consent. ANY distribution includes my name as an owner.

10% ownership in a production. I know as a producer I
wouldn’t offer that. Do you get that often?

Back to the topic; would you respond to a notice or ad that
offers "credit only" and then make this counter offer?

 

[Papertwinproductions]

I have yet to see anyone start without any equipment, decide to make a film, and have a finished film without spending ANY money. It cannot be done.

You must assume the obvious conclusion that most posts would be met by collaboration. As M1chae1 said, bare essentials.

 

[gpforet001]

No, I do not respond to "credit only" postings. I respond to "back-end compensation negotiable postings only to find that most will not commit anything to writing.

To the postings that do offer some type of future compensation, but are unwilling to commit in writing, sometimes we can agree on a rate, and sometimes we cannot.

I have not, and would not blind-side a production after an agreement has been made.

And I have, on several occassions volunteered to help with projects if I thought the project was something worthwhile, or I knew the producer as someone who reciprocates.

10% ownership in a production. I know as a producer I
wouldn’t offer that. Do you get that often?

Back to the topic; would you respond to a notice or ad that
offers "credit only" and then make this counter offer?

 

[M1chae1]

Here's how I handle people who are looking for audio support for free. I want 10% OWNERSHIP in the finished product. It does not go anywhere without my permission. It cannot be sold, marketed, or viewed without my consent. ANY distribution includes my name as an owner.

Firstly, this is kind of ludicrous. If they posted an ad needed support for free, than why would you come to them with this offer? That's just wrong on so many levels.

Why do you think this is even a fair idea? I wouldn't agree to this in a million years. Especially with someone that replied to my ad with this come back.

I've worked on dozens of pictures, and I still do it pro-bono in a lot of cases (east coast). I couldn't imagine coming forth with this 'offer'...I'd be laughed at. I think you're treating it like an actual investment...and if you invested a fair chunk of change in the picture, then go for it, make these demands. But putting up time and talent is not the same thing.

It just seems like bullying also. Poor young filmmakers trying to get something done, and they get hit with these demands? Sheesh.

 

[gpforet001]

I understand the idea of collaboration, but only if the the ownership is collaberative as well.

As a location sound person, I find myself not quite in the same position as filmmakers. I do not write, I do not produce, I do not create. I own equipment, that, with my skillset, provides a service to a production. Think of a steadicam operator, who has invested $30k+ in a rig. This weekend I worked with one who actually was volunteering as part of a local filmmaking team who share the ownership of their work. He doesn't need the copy or credit, his rig is paid for by those who pay him to work.

So, in regards to bare essentials, where does location sound fall? Is it considered a luxury? If so, then shoot with the camera mic, or buy some low cost gear and find a friend to hold the pole. You'll record something. Of course, I suspect you'll also be shooting on some inexpensive SD consumer camcorder, right? After all, we're talking bare essentials.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but pointing out that for every film made, money is spent, and it can be spent on gear, food, rental, or people, or some mix there-of.

You must assume the obvious conclusion that most posts would be met by collaboration. As M1chae1 said, bare essentials.

 

[gpforet001]

If the project is indeed no budget, and I'm carrying $15K worth of audio gear in my bag and arm, and giving away my rate for free, then I'd say that I'm making as big an investment as the producer.

I do treat my work as an investment.

And the clear things up a bit. I'm not talking about my time. If you have all the gear, and I'm not booked, I may well spend a day or two with you making your film. But typically, I see these copy and credit adds accompanied by the request for providing gear as well.

Firstly, this is kind of ludicrous. If they posted an ad needed support for free, than why would you come to them with this offer? That's just wrong on so many levels.

Why do you think this is even a fair idea? I wouldn't agree to this in a million years. Especially with someone that replied to my ad with this come back.

I've worked on dozens of pictures, and I still do it pro-bono in a lot of cases (east coast). I couldn't imagine coming forth with this 'offer'...I'd be laughed at. I think you're treating it like an actual investment...and if you invested a fair chunk of change in the picture, then go for it, make these demands. But putting up time and talent is not the same thing.

It just seems like bullying also. Poor young filmmakers trying to get something done, and they get hit with these demands? Sheesh.

 

[M1chae1]

Bare essentials are bare essentials. Equipment of any quality are can be deemed bare essentials (hopefully this comes with an operator).

I typically wouldn't call a full sound setup shooting on a prosumer camera with a full light kit and grip equipment to be 'no budget.' Typically that automatically will fall to micro-budget or low-budget.

Sometimes micro and low will pay outside parties like sound, camera, etc...sometimes they will get this expertise and equipment for free. It depends on who they know, and where they live.

But coming to a meeting that mentioned 'deferred pay' and demanding ownership (as a sound guy) is unorthodox and highly questionable.

 

[gpforet001]

I completely agree with everything you just said. Oh, and there is no demands made, ever. Deferred pay, at least to me, implies that there is an agreed to amount, to be paid on an agreed to date. The payment is deferred. I do these all the time for producers who I have a track record with, and I know they are good for the money, but may be having a hard time with cash flow, but need the shoot on a day prior to when they can pay me. That, to me, is deferred pay.

Saying that the producer will throw me a bone when, and if, they ever make money on the project I consider to be spec work, and I don't do spec work without a share in ownership. In fact, I'm working on a travel show now where were are shooting several episodes before shopping it to networks. I am on contract with part ownership. If it sells, I get a fixed percentage + costs. If it's picked up by a larger production company, my share is bought out by the producer.

Do you see anything unethical about this?

Bare essentials are bare essentials. Equipment of any quality are can be deemed bare essentials (hopefully this comes with an operator).

I typically wouldn't call a full sound setup shooting on a prosumer camera with a full light kit and grip equipment to be 'no budget.' Typically that automatically will fall to micro-budget or low-budget.

Sometimes micro and low will pay outside parties like sound, camera, etc...sometimes they will get this expertise and equipment for free. It depends on who they know, and where they live.

But coming to a meeting that mentioned 'deferred pay' and demanding ownership (as a sound guy) is unorthodox and highly questionable.

 

[bird]

Can't say I've come across anyone, yet, who's tried to change an agreement after the *fact*. I will say that for my future projects, I will do my best to secure monies for every talent. It's a bitch trying to stay on a dedicated schedule when your crew ( of one other, in my case) is, essentially, working in-kind. The worse thing is when peeps work on credit, you feel like your abusing the situation simply by asking for updates. To me, that's an extra stress I don't think needs to be added to anyone's production. Caught between a rock and hard place on credit, sometimes.