Noob Questions

Patriot Infinity

Patriot Infinity

Hi, I'm quite new to film making. I am very interested in filming short 'action' skits / scenes. That being said, I'd need things like squibs, blow back guns, and the like. Slow motion sequences is something I've always been fascinated with too, so that leads me to believe I'd need a high speed camera to work with.

This may not be the best example, but stuff like this is what I'm interested in filming (skip to 7:10). The whole slowing down the action and showing the impact with all the debris and the guy getting shot is all stuff I'd love to be able to do.

So what exactly would I need? What camera could I get (hopefully without breaking the bank)? What about squibs for peoples bodies and objects to show bullet impact? How would I make them, etc? What about lighting / color correction? What editing program would I use to add the slow motion effects of a gunshot/muzzle-flash (like in that video I liked you to. I currently use Sony Vegas Pro 9 to edit.)?

I enjoy making machinima films (videos shot within a video game engine) and have made quite a few. I'm full well aware of the types of angles I'd want to use and whatnot.

I can't quite think of anything else at the moment. If someone could answer these questions and maybe add some other helpful tips/advice/warnings/whatever, that would be great.
 
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Patriot Infinity said:
Hi, I'm quite new to film making. I am very interested in filming short 'action' skits / scenes. That being said, I'd need things like squibs, blow back guns, and the like.
Click to expand...

A squib is a small explosive device used for triggering a larger
explosion, or (by itself) it's own explosion. They range in size
from a millimeter (to shatter a bottle, for example) to 15 or
so millimeters (for a blood bag) and are ignited by an electric
current. Since a squib is an explosive device you need a license
to purchase, transport and use them.

For blowback guns try
http://www.airsplat.com/Categories/GPR.htm?gclid=CM7j1474-KACFQykiQodIgcJ0A
http://www.airgundepot.com/reblairpiand.html

Slow motion sequences is something I've always been fascinated with too, so that leads me to believe I'd need a high speed camera to work with.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. Some slomo can be done using editing software.

So what exactly would I need? What camera could I get (hopefully without breaking the bank) could I get?
Click to expand...
A camera isn't going to do that for you. Not even a top of the
line $80,000 one. How much money can you spend on a camera?

What about lighting / color correction?
Click to expand...
Check the forum here for lots of info on lighting and color correction.

Welcome to indietalk. Poke around the forums and you'll get
a lot of answers to your questions.
 
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Hey thats interesting about the machinima (I didnt know it had a name) Iv been wondering if that would be a good way to visualize and prepare for a movie...

Getting started.. Id suggest your check out videocopilot.net, watch some of the tutorials, sure its about a specific software program, but seeing what can be done in post, really opens up your mind. A few practicals (real FX like squibs) comped (that where you mix video together) with super quality explosions etc can create what your looking for.

About camera speed, there is a well known technique that uses HD footage shot in 60i to product super nice slow mo without any rendering problems. So pretty much any newer HD video cam can get you great slow mo, top that off with the things software can do, and well.. slo mo is the least of your worries... :)

money money money money money how much ya got?
 
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Thanks for the reply guys.

Reason I asked about a nice camera was because I didn't want the slow motion to be ruined during editing (which wheatgrinder kindly cleared up for me).

So in terms of squibs... what would be a good step by step process I'd have to take to get/use them? How much are they?

I believe my friend and I have around $1000 (something like that) to spend on stuff. First priority is a camera, of course. Got any suggestions?

Any advice in terms of after effects (I assume it'd be best to use Adobe AE)?

Thanks again.
 
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Id suggest you not worry about the squibs, your hyper focusing on that. :cool:. if you look CAREFULLY at movies, there really aren't that many squib shots on the screen.. a lot of INFERRED hits and a lot of derbies but not that many actual pops. Check out indy mogul Backyard FX site..

For massive gun fire, rain of bullets hits everywhere, its just a lot of junk in the air. So put junk in the air.. throw handfuls of flour, crushed captain crunch cereal, rice or what ever at your actor.. you can add little pops (visual explosions) in post rather easily. Sure practical FX look better, but done wrong they just look stupid...
 
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Perhaps he isn’t hyper focusing on squibs - perhaps he has
question about them and has found someone who knows the answers.
Whether or not there are a lot of squibs used in movies or not,
asking about them is, in my opinion, a really important part of
learning.

P.I. - Since a squib is an explosive, you need someone with a pyro
license to both purchase and use them. You will have to contact a
licensed pyrotechnician in your area. Squibs range in price from a
buck or two, to ten or so, depending on the size.

You aren’t going to find a camera with variable frame rates in the
$1,000 range. So you’ll have to do the slomo in post. Check the
“Cinematography & Lighting” section for posts on cameras. Any name
brand camera in your price range that has a mic input will be just
about the same. You’ll read praises on different brands from
people who own specific cameras - kind of like a Coke/Pepsi
debate. Buy a camera from on the the major manufacturers and
you’ll have a camera you will get a lot of use from.
 
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Thanks for the correction directorik. I have a habit of putting my self in others peoples situation and then replying based on how MY brain works.. and me, Id be hyper focued on squibs! For what its worth, I was certified pyrotech for firework display, but that was just so I could get good seats at the 4th of July! (Lighting off an 8" mortar, by hand, with a flare, 18" away from you head.. now that rocks!)

Back to OT..

A person can certainly NOT hire a pyrotech, and loose a few fingers and maybe an eye... but if your game.. how hard can it be to make one? no hints here though, thad be immoral..

I have read about the air powered squibs, maybe thats a good start?
 
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That’s exactly how I got my start. Working my way through the
various pyro levels by starting with public arial displays. I loved
running down the path of mortars with a flair!

As a licensed pyrotech, I hate it when people even hint - as you
have done - that there is an alternative. Why do it? Why suggest
that one can make their own but it’s dangerous? I don’t get it. I
wouldn’t call it immoral - I would call it careless and
dangerous. As you can see, I’m hyper sensitive to this subject.

Let me ask you, wheatgrinder; on a personal level, if you were
hyper focusing on squibs and someone told you that other movies
don’t use that many, that inferring bullet his is done more often
would that change your focus? Or would you still want to know
everything you can about them?
 
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I know little to nothing about squibs, but I'm wondering what the difference is between using air compression vs explosive? I mean, is it something as simple as the "blood" will go five feet with air as opposed to 10 with explosive? (And I apologise for such a simplification, I just wonder what the big "deal" is with using pyros when inferred or air pressure will do)?


*sits and waits for his lesson*
 
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With some prep, work and experience one can use compressed air to
get many of the same effects as a squib. But there are some
effects that can only be done with squibs - and yes I am very
aware that just about anything can be done in post, but all my
actual experience is in practical, on set efx. I’m not a CGI guy.

Multiple bullet hits as from a machine gun or many weapons (Bonnie
and Clyde) cannot be done with compressed air. Very large hit as
from a shotgun cannot be done as effectively with compressed air.
Clothing that is ripped to shreds is difficult to do without
explosives. Hits on a person running cannot be done using
compressed air.

The big deal is speed and accuracy. On movies being made for no
money, where people are not being paid by the hour or day, where a
lot of time can be used up setting and hiding the blood tubes and
doing several takes until it’s right, then compressed air is a
great and very effective alternative. For a movie where time is
money a skilled pyrotech can set up a bullet hit (or multiple
hits) quickly and accurately. That saves time and saving time
saves money.
 
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Thank you. That puts stuff in perspective for me. I can see the appeal. But as been alluded-that appeal comes with danger.

I guess I've always been a fan of the "implied" stuff-never that huge into gore(though I've gained more of an appreciation since learning about masks and appliances).


On a side note, and OT directorik-what was your impression of the "Alien Autopsy"-I remember watching it and "hollywood effects people"(I didn't know their pedigree) said on camera if it is a hoax it was an incredibly expensive one re:realism(how real is an alien anyway?). If you've seen it, do you share that view?
 
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Well I certainly do plan to do the slow motion in post production. Reason I asked about the camera was so that when I do make it in slow motion in post production, the framerate wouldn't be choppy, etc.

I contacted a friend of mine who knows a thing or two about these sort of FX. He operates an air cannon and would be able to help out with stuff like debris. So debris coming from off screen is out of the way. The whole bullet impact seems to be kind of my issue now. Compressed air seems like the only alternative, but how difficult would it be to make that initial *pop* when the bullet impacts the actor similar to that video I linked you all to in the OP?
 
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directorik said:
Let me ask you, wheatgrinder; on a personal level, if you were
hyper focusing on squibs and someone told you that other movies
don’t use that many, that inferring bullet his is done more often
would that change your focus? Or would you still want to know
everything you can about them?
Click to expand...


That was kinda my point.. :yes:
Knowing how I can obsess about something like that, I would struggle to maintain focus on the big picture and all the other stuff that I need to be figuring out. I could easily spend months running down a topic that interesting, but in in the end, is KEEPING me from getting my movie made. (personal experience)


As a licensed pyrotech, I hate it when people even hint - as you
have done - that there is an alternative. Why do it? Why suggest
that one can make their own but it’s dangerous? I don’t get it. I
wouldn’t call it immoral - I would call it careless and
dangerous. As you can see, I’m hyper sensitive to this subject.
Click to expand...

You can be hypersensitive, I don't mind, the first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem :D
 
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.. what, you don't want a cute little pop sound with every hit? :) lol

No, I was just thinking that rapidly filling a small balloon with compressed air should result in a little explosion. Dont know, just thinking out loud here.. Its still not going to rip through a shirt, but you can pre-cut for that.. and maybe a bit of fake blood already in the balloon? Put enough air in the ballon and it will pop. Controlling the force of the pop is the tough part. Maybe balloons in plastic 35mm film containers? Tuna fish cans?

One point, .. having just dispatch a raccoon at close range two night ago with a 9mm. (mercy killing, some dogs had already been at it). its not near that dramatic.. little holes don't even show up.. no spray nothing like that..
 
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Hey, I went back and watched that OP reference movie again. And I think there is only one or two actual practicals in the whole thing, and those Im not sure of. I believe all of battle around 7:10 is VFX. Even the 4 snow hits. The body hits and blood mist are certainly VFX. IT looks a lot like the videocopilot.net action essentials stuff. The action editing and the VFX are pretty dang good, and work together, but the effects are well within the realm of the newbie with a lot of practice.
 
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wheatgrinder said:
Hey, I went back and watched that OP reference movie again. And I think there is only one or two actual practicals in the whole thing, and those Im not sure of. I believe all of battle around 7:10 is VFX. Even the 4 snow hits. The body hits and blood mist are certainly VFX. IT looks a lot like the videocopilot.net action essentials stuff. The action editing and the VFX are pretty dang good, and work together, but the effects are well within the realm of the newbie with a lot of practice.
Click to expand...

I asked the guy who made the movie. He said that the last part he used squibs.

He said that I should get an HD camera that shoots in 60fps so I'd have no choppy framerate when slowing it down to something like 24fps.
 
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Tinalera said:
Thank you. That puts stuff in perspective for me. I can see the appeal. But as been alluded-that appeal comes with danger.
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Squibs are not very dangerous at all. No more than an automobile
or a machete is dangerous. Used improperly both an automobile and
a machete can be a dangerous thing. Used correctly both are useful
tools.


Tinalera said:
On a side note, and OT directorik-what was your impression of the "Alien Autopsy"-I remember watching it and "hollywood effects people"(I didn't know their pedigree) said on camera if it is a hoax it was an incredibly expensive one re:realism(how real is an alien anyway?). If you've seen it, do you share that view?
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I’ve seen it. I can’t imagine any efx artist thinking it might be
real - or even very expensive. Everything I’ve seen I could easily
duplicate and efx artists with more experience certainly could.
Materials alone I’d estimate in the $2,000 range. In fact, there
are several omissions that prove to me the efx people weren’t even
that good. Cut aways, shaky camera and too much grain for the time
period lead me to believe they were hiding less than excellent
makeup efx.

P.I. - To get that kind of fine mist blood spray in slomo with the
clothing ripping open an explosive squib will most likely be
needed. I know I could get pretty close with compressed air
because I’ve been doing it for a long time. With several attempts
I think you could do it to. It will be difficult - but you know
nothing about making a movie and getting exactly what you want on
video is going to be easy. Add the right sound effect, the right
reaction from the actor and good editing and you can get damn
close to that shot without a squib.

That shot might have be added in post. It’s kind of hard to tell,
but looking at the rest of the movie they are clearly using a lot
of CGI so that leads me to believe that bullet was also done that
way.
 
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