New pro camera for dual needs

[Andy_S]

Only my second post here so go easy.

I am a photographer first and foremost but I am planning a partial switch to include a video production side to my start-up business.

I am looking to purchase a pro video camera but there is so much to think about that I really need some help and guidance.

The two sides to my video production would be as follows:

1) Producing aviation enthusiast "in the cockpit" type DVDs. This is an example of the kind of think I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZb8ywaHlT4 Also airside/planes in flight and maybe airshow DVDs too. I would hope to also include other transportation subjects at a later date but the aviation would come first as I know that sector like the back of my hand and have some contacts.

2) 2nd part of the business would produce travel/tourist (souvenir) type DVDs. I think I could make a fresh and modern approach to these. This came about as I have a possible trial run with my local tourist office in my town in the UK. They are quite interested to see if tourists type DVDs would sell well.

So I need a pro video camera that could cover both of those areas and be something of a sufficient level that I wouldn't have to upgrade in the future if my business takes off (buy right, buy once).
I currently own a Canon 1DmkIV plus pro L series lenses.

The camera I have considered are the Sony EX1R and EX3. I then had a look at the Sony HVR-S270E and HVR Z7E as they take tapes and this would cut down the cost of recording media a LOT. I am not 100% sure if HDV tape would be ok quality but I think they might.

Sorry for the long post but any help would be really appreciated.

Andy S

 

[directorik]

Welcome to indietalk

So I need a pro video camera that could cover both of those areas and be something of a sufficient level that I wouldn't have to upgrade in the future if my business takes off (buy right, buy once).

Not a realistic expectation when it comes to video cameras.
They change so often that you will need to upgrade no matter
what you buy now.

Since you are a still photographer with lenses using a DSLR
with video capabilities might be a good choice for you. As a pro
camera operator I don't like these cameras for various reasons
but they do shoot great images for the price.

The Sony cameras you mention are all fine for what you want to
do. I know choosing a camera can get confusing, but the fact is,
any camera from the top four in that price range will do exactly
what you need. If you are drawn to Sony (I'm a JVC user) then
Sony is a fine choice.

 

[chilipie]

I haven't worked with any of the Sony cameras you mentioned, so I can't really comment on them, but for the "in the cockpit" DVDs I think a kitted out 5D MKII would be brilliant - small form factor, full-frame sensor for wide angle shots in a cramped space, and you've already got some gorgeous glass for it. With two bodies you could stick one out the way for wide shots and use the other for close-ups.

 

[Andy_S]

I haven't worked with any of the Sony cameras you mentioned, so I can't really comment on them, but for the "in the cockpit" DVDs I think a kitted out 5D MKII would be brilliant - small form factor, full-frame sensor for wide angle shots in a cramped space, and you've already got some gorgeous glass for it. With two bodies you could stick one out the way for wide shots and use the other for close-ups.

Someone on another forum said the same thing. My reason for wanting a camcorder as well as DSLR is full-time AF. With pilots jumping all over the cockpit pressing switches all over the place for example, full-time AF would be pretty much essential. I find the having to zoom the lens on my DLSR then refocus is ok but I doubt I could do it fast enough. Filming planes in flight from the ground is impossible.
Also the sound options on the DSLR are not ideal. Not being able to hear the audio when recording in the cockpit wouldn't be good.

 

[chilipie]

Someone on another forum said the same thing. My reason for wanting a camcorder as well as DSLR is full-time AF. With pilots jumping all over the cockpit pressing switches all over the place for example, full-time AF would be pretty much essential. I find the having to zoom the lens on my DLSR then refocus is ok but I doubt I could do it fast enough. Filming planes in flight from the ground is impossible.
Also the sound options on the DSLR are not ideal. Not being able to hear the audio when recording in the cockpit wouldn't be good.

The sound's a very good point: I'm used to shooting drama, and having plenty of space for a sound man to swing a boom. However, if you want really good sound you should probably be micing the pilots up in the cockpit - you could mount a Zoom H4n recorder on the camera, use the built-in mics for stereo ambient sound, and then have wireless lapel mics on the pilots.

I've no idea what it's like to film planes in flight, but when it comes to shooting stuff in the cockpit - if you want to do this professionally - I think you need to learn how to pull focus manually. Autofocus can be incredibly useful, but there's no way you can rely on it to focus on what you want it to.

If the EX3 et al are realistic purchases, maybe you'll be better off going with them; the DSLRs are absolutely fantastic, but probably at their weakest when doing documentary type stuff, so maybe you'd be better off with a "proper" video camera and using the 1D as a B-cam.

 

[CamVader]

This is an interesting topic and I hope no one minds if I chime in. I come from a news photography background and have shot in cockpits. It is LOUD in there. I was able to access the pilot's RF gear (I think it was a 1/8" jack - this was years ago, ask first) and that stuff has built in noise cancelling and was very usable. The second channel was from the shotgun mic - levels will be pinned if you forget to ramp it down - and mixed post. The pilots won't have to scream into their own gear, but they would with any of the gear that I had with me.

I assume we are not talking about large jets here.

Autofocus would be going ape in a small space every time the horizon or ground were visable out the window. Wide angle with focal infinity is what I think I ended up with. The best time to shoot is with a low, or lowering, sun with the plane flying in the direction that will light the pilots face. A camera with zebra will be helpful.

A smaller HDV like the Canon XHA1s would be practical with some type of collapsed monopod with the digic on. For the news it was the lap or knees. I had about a half hour notice.

 

[directorik]

I have shot several reality shows including “The Amazing Race” and
“Survivor” and I agree with CamVader. What you need in the cockpit
is focal infinity not shallow DOF with the auto focus trying to
figure out what to focus on. In the example you post the copilot
is in focus as is the runway. With auto focus on the camera would
be changing between 3ft and infinity over and over which would be
very distracting. With shallow DOF you would get one or the other
and not both.

I recently used the JVC HM100 for shooting in tiny cabs and
crowded trains. That would be my suggestion as it will easily
handle both of your needs. But the Sony cameras you mention would
work well, too.

 

[David.rhsc]

So I need a pro video camera that could cover both of those areas and be something of a sufficient level that I wouldn't have to upgrade in the future if my business takes off (buy right, buy once).
I currently own a Canon 1DmkIV plus pro L series lenses.

Hello and welcome.

That's a nice bunch of lenses you already have going.

Have you looked into the Panasonic AF-100? You could leverage your existing lens kit and it would definitely fit the two scenarios you listed. Price range is on par with the EX-1. The m4/3 format is pretty flexible in terms of DoF. Hypothetically you should be able to choose between deep or shallow fields for the cockpit shots depending on how you approach the shot and choice of lens. Fully featured pro camera, decently small form factor, etc. It is solid state, but there are advantages to that over HDV imho. As far as not needing to upgrade, well - you could use this camera body, PL lenses, and an external recorder off the uncompressed HD-SDI (or patch directly into a broadcast video chain) without significant additional investment and basically shoot for just about any sort of delivery with very high quality results.

Here's some info:

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=26058

There's more about the GH2 in there than there is the AF-100, but that's because the latter is out of my budget.

 

[CamVader]

I hear you David, but can we monitor audio reliably without a bunch of test shots? DSLR's are great in controlled environments, but this application is not exactly a strong point of the format.

I'll be quiet now.

 

[David.rhsc]

I hear you David, but can we monitor audio reliably without a bunch of test shots? DSLR's are great in controlled environments, but this application is not exactly a strong point of the format.

I'll be quiet now.

AF-100 isn't dslr, xlr ins, real monitoring, headphone jack that doesn't completely bite, etc. Zebras, Peaking, 1x1 focus assist, HD-SDI uncompressed output (can u say ki-pro?) actual really for real buttons to control stuff, and so on.

It just shares some internal hardware and lens adaptability with the gh2.

I wouldn't advocate for the gh2 (or any dslr actually) for what he is planning, but it's big brother has some potential.

 

[Andy_S]

I haven't worked with any of the Sony cameras you mentioned, so I can't really comment on them, but for the "in the cockpit" DVDs I think a kitted out 5D MKII would be brilliant - small form factor, full-frame sensor for wide angle shots in a cramped space, and you've already got some gorgeous glass for it. With two bodies you could stick one out the way for wide shots and use the other for close-ups.

I'll have a look into the AF-100. Now if Canon did one so I could use my existing lenses then that would be just amazing.

 

[CamVader]

AF-100 isn't dslr, xlr ins, real monitoring, headphone jack that doesn't completely bite, etc. Zebras, Peaking, 1x1 focus assist, HD-SDI uncompressed output (can u say ki-pro?) actual really for real buttons to control stuff, and so on.

It just shares some internal hardware and lens adaptability with the gh2.

I wouldn't advocate for the gh2 (or any dslr actually) for what he is planning, but it's big brother has some potential.

Ooh! I have my eye on those to be honest.

 

[CamVader]

I'll have a look into the AF-100. Now if Canon did one so I could use my existing lenses then that would be just amazing.

They should be in the $5k range.

 

[David.rhsc]

I'll have a look into the AF-100. Now if Canon did one so I could use my existing lenses then that would be just amazing.

You can. Sorry, tried to make that point in my initial response, but sometimes my wording isn't really clear.

That's the beauty of the m4/3 system. The flange focal distance is 20mm; extremely short. This means that mounts for just about any lens imaginable can be fabricated so that said lens is at its correct FFD, meaning true focus through infinity.

Fotodiox makes a ton for the m4/3 format (link in the thread I linked above). You could totally use your L series glass (EOS EF I assume), or upgrade later to a HotRod PL mount and go for cine lenses as well. Heck, even c-mount 16mm lenses will work with some vignetting.

Panasonic is trying to position m4/3 as the "super-16 of HD cinema." I'm pretty jazzed about the format. Can't afford the AF-100 at this point in the career, but after a couple more of my receivables hit the mailbox I'm pre-ordering a GH2. I hopefully have samples of FD, C mount, and kit lens clips/stills shortly after that for folks that are curious.

You wouldn't want Canon to make one of these anyway - they'd keep using that crappy line-skipped compression of theirs and on a sensor this small that would really start to be problematic.

Canon VDSLR is dead to me until they dump h.264 and line skipping - or until they offer an uncompressed HD-SDI out option. Whichever happens first.

Oh yeah, see that neat little dial on the front there above and to the right of the lens mount? Internal ND filters baby. Looks like it functions just like the ones found on 2/3 broadcast cameras. Just like they do on the big shows, as the saying goes.

 

[chilipie]

That's the beauty of the m4/3 system. The flange focal distance is 20mm; extremely short. This means that mounts for just about any lens imaginable can be fabricated so that said lens is at its correct FFD, meaning true focus through infinity.

Fotodiox makes a ton for the m4/3 format (link in the thread I linked above). You could totally use your L series glass (EOS EF I assume), or upgrade later to a HotRod PL mount and go for cine lenses as well. Heck, even c-mount 16mm lenses will work with some vignetting.

You can mount EF lenses really easily, but can you control the iris from the camera?

 

[wheatgrinder]

Id opt for three or four of those "gopro HERO HD" cameras. Small enough to mount in different places around the plane (inside and out!) , wide angle, high speed filming, purpose built for high vibration etc.. not much on settings. Maybe even a pilot mounted helmet cam. Seems that several angles of the action during a flight would be optimal. Plus, one mounted on the wing, or landing gear.. super cool.. (Id not put a $2k worth of DSLR on the landing gear of plane!, but a $300 sport cam..maybe.. )

 

[David.rhsc]

You can mount EF lenses really easily, but can you control the iris from the camera?

Good point. I tend to think in terms of older still lenses or cine lenses where that's not a problem, so I often forget about it. Really no way to do that on the lens? Baffling.

I don't know, I don't think any of the fotodiox mounts allow you to pass through electronic signals. That functionally changes things.

GoPro's are a great idea for lots of great b-roll and the like.

 

[Andy_S]

GoPro's are a great idea for lots of great b-roll and the like.

The GoPro's would make an ideal B-roll camera and would be easy to install in the cramped cockpit.


I have been thinking about funds and what I have come up with is the possibility of selling the 1DmkIV for around £3000 (it's in absolutely as new condition) then getting a used 7D (I still need the ability to produce stills, plus I had a 7D so know they are good). On top of that I would get a video camera as I really do think it would suit my needs better than VDSLR.

So back to what video camera. I am still thinking:
Sony EX1R
Sony EX3
Sony HZ7E

I just can't seem to narrow it down from there, or think of any other camera I should be looking at.

 

[David.rhsc]

Sony EX1R

Great Camera. Lightweight, durable, good menu layout, decent amount of control without digging into menus. They mostly solved the IR issues from the early EX series cameras. Use this guy all the time on industrials, occasionally on music videos and such.

Sony EX3

Basically the same, except more expensive, slightly larger, with a slightly friendlier for hand holding form factor. Nicer and interchangeable lens on this guy, although the interchangeability not really a selling point for your application. Same 1/2"x3 CCD internals as the EX-1 with a bigger price tag. IMHO the viewfinder is much much better on the 3 than on the 1, and if I had to operate it all day in a doc/"reality" environment I'd pick the 3 over the 1. (budget taken out of the consideration there, strictly usability) For me, the lens and the viewfinder more than make up for the difference in price. Honestly, you can't go wrong with either of these cameras.

Sony HZ7E

Can't seem to google this model number.

 

[Andy_S]

Can't seem to google this model number.

Should read Z7E. The reason I am attracted to this one is the fact that it records to tape and CF cards, both cheap. The EX1R and EX3 memory cards are VERY expensive. They could easily add £1000-2000 just in cards whereas the same for the Z7E would cost maybe £50.