I am shooting a film on a shoestring budget and would like to know what's the cheapest mic and digital sound recorder I could get, but that still has good enough quality to qualify for the movie to be sent to the film festivals, and not be judged for poor sound.
sound Need some advice on which mic to use.
- Thread starter harmonica44
- Start date
Yeah but DSLRs are known for poor sound so how does a digital sound recorder do any better if they store the sound the same way?
The poor sound on the DSLRs is nothing to do with the flash card. The flash card is just a way of storing the information, it's the input to the DSLR (I'm thinking pre-amps?) which give you the sucky sound quality...
Yeah that makes sense. So how do you know if a digital sound recorder has good preamps? I've looked at some audio interfaces, and I don't understand how a sound man is suppose to wear it on him while using a boom mic. Even the Tascam US-122L USB is still kinda bulky. Even though I wanna hire a sound man I still wanna learn the equipment to make sure everything goes smoothly. So can you record good audio to a DSLR, if the mic is plugged into a preamp, and then plugged into the camera? This way it will all go to the same data card, if that works.
Another thing is someone said that a boom mic can capture sound from 14-18 inches away. But how do you film a chase sequence where you will need to capture sound from even further away?
Another thing is someone said that a boom mic can capture sound from 14-18 inches away. But how do you film a chase sequence where you will need to capture sound from even further away?
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Oh BOG!!!!!!!!!
There is no such thing as a boom mic. You can hang any type of mic - shotgun/lobar, omnidirectional and cardioids (which include super-cardioid and hyper-cardioid) on the end of a boom-pole.
A shotgun mic, because of the way it is designed, is a better choice for outdoors film production sound as it has better off axis rejection; it uses an interference tube to "focus" or narrow the pick-up pattern. But, because of the way it is designed, a shotgun mic is not a good choice for indoors; it greatly exaggerates the sound reflections of rooms, so you get that "echoey" "roomy" quality to the production sound. A mic with a hypercardioid polar pattern is greatly preferred for indoors usage, it is more "forgiving".
No matter what you do - a $2k mic and the best mixer/pre-amp in the world - if you plug it into a DSLR you are still using the crappy DSLR pre-amps. The quality of the mic pre-amps is what a soundie listens for. For film work you want no sound coloration (as opposed to music recording where you want the "personality" colored pre-amps can impart to musical sounds). You also want a very low self-noise floor; most audio devices create hiss and other audio artifacts. When recording quiet sounds you can hear the self noise of cheap pre-amps. The pre-amps in the Zoom and other micro-budget flash audio recorders sound very harsh to my ears and there is a very obvious audible hiss. The low/mid priced devices like the FR2-LE and the PMD-661 have better mic pres (a company called Oade Brothers does quite surprisingly inexpensive mods that replaces the original mic pres with better quality pre-amps). The quality of the mic pres that is one reason why Sound Devices and Zaxcom units cost so much.
On chase/action/etc. scenes a wireless lav is used in addition to a boomed mic. Placing/concealing wireless lavs is an art form unto itself as they are prone to RF interference, drop outs, head turns and cloth rub. The dialog in actions scenes is usually ADRed as there is probably a lot of other extraneous noise going on as well.
There is no such thing as a boom mic. You can hang any type of mic - shotgun/lobar, omnidirectional and cardioids (which include super-cardioid and hyper-cardioid) on the end of a boom-pole.
A shotgun mic, because of the way it is designed, is a better choice for outdoors film production sound as it has better off axis rejection; it uses an interference tube to "focus" or narrow the pick-up pattern. But, because of the way it is designed, a shotgun mic is not a good choice for indoors; it greatly exaggerates the sound reflections of rooms, so you get that "echoey" "roomy" quality to the production sound. A mic with a hypercardioid polar pattern is greatly preferred for indoors usage, it is more "forgiving".
No matter what you do - a $2k mic and the best mixer/pre-amp in the world - if you plug it into a DSLR you are still using the crappy DSLR pre-amps. The quality of the mic pre-amps is what a soundie listens for. For film work you want no sound coloration (as opposed to music recording where you want the "personality" colored pre-amps can impart to musical sounds). You also want a very low self-noise floor; most audio devices create hiss and other audio artifacts. When recording quiet sounds you can hear the self noise of cheap pre-amps. The pre-amps in the Zoom and other micro-budget flash audio recorders sound very harsh to my ears and there is a very obvious audible hiss. The low/mid priced devices like the FR2-LE and the PMD-661 have better mic pres (a company called Oade Brothers does quite surprisingly inexpensive mods that replaces the original mic pres with better quality pre-amps). The quality of the mic pres that is one reason why Sound Devices and Zaxcom units cost so much.
On chase/action/etc. scenes a wireless lav is used in addition to a boomed mic. Placing/concealing wireless lavs is an art form unto itself as they are prone to RF interference, drop outs, head turns and cloth rub. The dialog in actions scenes is usually ADRed as there is probably a lot of other extraneous noise going on as well.
Oh BOG!!!!!!!!!
There is no such thing as a boom mic. You can hang any type of mic - shotgun/lobar, omnidirectional and cardioids (which include super-cardioid and hyper-cardioid) on the end of a boom-pole.
A shotgun mic, because of the way it is designed, is a better choice for outdoors film production sound as it has better off axis rejection; it uses an interference tube to "focus" or narrow the pick-up pattern. But, because of the way it is designed, a shotgun mic is not a good choice for indoors; it greatly exaggerates the sound reflections of rooms, so you get that "echoey" "roomy" quality to the production sound. A mic with a hypercardioid polar pattern is greatly preferred for indoors usage, it is more "forgiving".
No matter what you do - a $2k mic and the best mixer/pre-amp in the world - if you plug it into a DSLR you are still using the crappy DSLR pre-amps. The quality of the mic pre-amps is what a soundie listens for. For film work you want no sound coloration (as opposed to music recording where you want the "personality" colored pre-amps can impart to musical sounds). You also want a very low self-noise floor; most audio devices create hiss and other audio artifacts. When recording quiet sounds you can hear the self noise of cheap pre-amps. The pre-amps in the Zoom and other micro-budget flash audio recorders sound very harsh to my ears and there is a very obvious audible hiss. The low/mid priced devices like the FR2-LE and the PMD-661 have better mic pres (a company called Oade Brothers does quite surprisingly inexpensive mods that replaces the original mic pres with better quality pre-amps). The quality of the mic pres that is one reason why Sound Devices and Zaxcom units cost so much.
On chase/action/etc. scenes a wireless lav is used in addition to a boomed mic. Placing/concealing wireless lavs is an art form unto itself as they are prone to RF interference, drop outs, head turns and cloth rub. The dialog in actions scenes is usually ADRed as there is probably a lot of other extraneous noise going on as well.
I would be going over budget if I bought additional lav mics. Can I not film a chase with a boom mic and just keep it to the side of the actors, during the chase? I would have to film them closer up as they run to keep the mic out of frame though.
You asked:
I answered:
But...
Not my problem!
You boom as best you can. As with most action/adventure projects dialog from CUs and 2shots or ADR is used if the lavs don't work for whatever reasons.
But this is what I meant when I said that you need the right tools for each situation and someone who knows how to use those tools to best advantage. Like most no budget filmmakers you'll have to muddle through as best you can and come up with creative solutions.
Creative solution #1 - no dialog when they're running around.
I answered:
But...
Not my problem!
You boom as best you can. As with most action/adventure projects dialog from CUs and 2shots or ADR is used if the lavs don't work for whatever reasons.
But this is what I meant when I said that you need the right tools for each situation and someone who knows how to use those tools to best advantage. Like most no budget filmmakers you'll have to muddle through as best you can and come up with creative solutions.
Creative solution #1 - no dialog when they're running around.
Creative solution #1 - no dialog when they're running around.
Another choice, shoot wide and do ADR...more forgiving. The do not always have to face the camera when speaking. Over the shoulder shots, profile....add some soundtrack stuff in the background. Sometimes the solutions are simple if we get out of the way..
Watch some older movies ...1960s & before. Most all of those movies had dialog recorded in the studio. Learn from them. Look at El Mariachi.. all ADR
Well it's hard to work on other projects since there aren't a lot where I live. I've looked around and so far the indie films that have been shot where I live that I was able to check out or ask about, did not use separate sound recorders. They user shoot with the mic plugged into the cam or dub ADR for some reason. Mostly music videos and things like that shot where I live. Hard to find a film being shot that uses a separate sound recorder, but I will keep looking. Don't get me wrong, I wanna get my hands dirty. I'm just having trouble finding the opportunities.
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What about the tascam HD-P2 or FP-32? Is that a good audio recorder, and even though it's a little big, will a sound man have a problem wearing it?
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Th HD-P2 is a very nice recorder. I had very nice results the times that I used it. Oade Brothers makes several very nice mods for it.
The FP-32 is an excellent mixer, but it will not record audio; it will only mix sound sources together.
The pair - HD-P2 + FP-32 - would make an excellent production sound kit. They should be paired with equally nice mics.
The FP-32 is an excellent mixer, but it will not record audio; it will only mix sound sources together.
The pair - HD-P2 + FP-32 - would make an excellent production sound kit. They should be paired with equally nice mics.
I will not be able to afford both but might be able to rent the HD-P2. It may be a rip off to rent it if I can buy the cheaper ones like the FR2-LE
You can get by without a mixer to start off. The HD-P2 is a cool unit; maybe you could rent it out to folks in your area.
Well I will see about renting it myself but I don't want to purchase one, as it goes over my budget. I still can't find a soundman that has used a separate sound recorder though. I posted adds and talked to people who know people, and they all have plugged the mic into the cam. There are some sound man I have met that have used recorders, but those ones are much more expensive. I'm guessing it's because they have worked on bigger or more costly movies.
I think I will have to hire one who has not used a recorder. I talked to one and he said that even though he has never used one, he has taken classes on how to. Is this a bad sign?
I think I will have to hire one who has not used a recorder. I talked to one and he said that even though he has never used one, he has taken classes on how to. Is this a bad sign?
For sure. Well I shopped around and I think I will by either the Tascam HD-P2, or Zoom H4N. I have listen to footage recorded in the Zoom and there is no hissing, so maybe it all depends on the settings. One person told me it depends on how you set it.
After filming this short film I have decided to film a feature length script I wrote, which I wanna send into the film festivals and market to DVD or maybe even some movie theaters if it happens. But can the H4N or HD-P2 be good enough quality for a movie to be accepted by distributors, to be put into theaters? Even in the hands of an expert, can the sound be that good?
After filming this short film I have decided to film a feature length script I wrote, which I wanna send into the film festivals and market to DVD or maybe even some movie theaters if it happens. But can the H4N or HD-P2 be good enough quality for a movie to be accepted by distributors, to be put into theaters? Even in the hands of an expert, can the sound be that good?
And look at Hurt Locker - 99% of it is production sound.
Look at King's Speech. Pretty much all production sound.
Tarantino's movies are pretty much all production.
And the list goes on and on...
IMHO I think it's idiotic to shoot a movie with ADR written into the script.
I've recorded quite a variety of actors for ADR and pretty much only the very skilled and top-notch actors know how to project similarly, get into the mindset again, know how to control their voice to match, know how to control their pacing to match the original dialogue, know how to re-create their voice as it sounded on the set 6 months before when they shot it originally. The other actors had no clue how to match themselves, how to use the mics to their advantage, how to pace themselves and emphasize words the same, it just makes a mess out of the project to have cheesy dialogue. And god help you with whatever type of ADR mixer you get who is responsible for matching your dead studio ADR recordings to the production sound from the set - especially what you will get for "no budget".
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