I am shooting a film on a shoestring budget and would like to know what's the cheapest mic and digital sound recorder I could get, but that still has good enough quality to qualify for the movie to be sent to the film festivals, and not be judged for poor sound.
sound Need some advice on which mic to use.
- Thread starter harmonica44
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GP, who answered you in #7 does production sound for a living; I worked about three years doing production sound, I've been doing post sound for a living for almost ten years now, and audio in general for almost 35 years. So I think that we both may have a pretty good idea of what we are talking about. I don't know who you've been talking to about sound, but he really has his head up his anus. And I really get the feeling that you just ignore the things that you don't want to hear from GPs or my posts.
There are reasons why a "Hollywood" sound cart costs over $100,000. There are reasons why the best production sound mixer/boom-op/wrangler teams make almost $1.5k per day. If you want great sound you have to plan for it, you need the proper equipment, you have to acquire the knowledge, you have to acquire the skill sets, and you have to expend the efforts. And even then 20 times the money and effort will be expended in audio post massaging the production sound and adding further sonic enhancements such as Foley and sound FX; and mixing it all is another dimension entirely.
Capturing good production sound is HARD. Capturing great production sound is even harder. A shotgun mic is not an audio magic wand, it will not do what you are trying to accomplish. I won't go into the details, but due to the physics of sound and the principles on which they are built, shotgun mics are a very poor choice for indoor usage 90% of the time, and I would lay very heavy odds that you will not be shooting in the other 10% of those situations. No matter what you do, at some point you will have to spend some relatively serious money to accomplish certain audio tasks and even then the task will only be accomplished by someone who has the knowledge and experience.
Your original question was "I am shooting a film on a shoestring budget and would like to know what's the cheapest mic and digital sound recorder I could get, but that still has good enough quality to qualify for the movie to be sent to the film festivals, and not be judged for poor sound." I gave you the ultra-cheap solution. If you know better then do what you want.
There are reasons why a "Hollywood" sound cart costs over $100,000. There are reasons why the best production sound mixer/boom-op/wrangler teams make almost $1.5k per day. If you want great sound you have to plan for it, you need the proper equipment, you have to acquire the knowledge, you have to acquire the skill sets, and you have to expend the efforts. And even then 20 times the money and effort will be expended in audio post massaging the production sound and adding further sonic enhancements such as Foley and sound FX; and mixing it all is another dimension entirely.
Capturing good production sound is HARD. Capturing great production sound is even harder. A shotgun mic is not an audio magic wand, it will not do what you are trying to accomplish. I won't go into the details, but due to the physics of sound and the principles on which they are built, shotgun mics are a very poor choice for indoor usage 90% of the time, and I would lay very heavy odds that you will not be shooting in the other 10% of those situations. No matter what you do, at some point you will have to spend some relatively serious money to accomplish certain audio tasks and even then the task will only be accomplished by someone who has the knowledge and experience.
Your original question was "I am shooting a film on a shoestring budget and would like to know what's the cheapest mic and digital sound recorder I could get, but that still has good enough quality to qualify for the movie to be sent to the film festivals, and not be judged for poor sound." I gave you the ultra-cheap solution. If you know better then do what you want.
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No I don't mean to ignore advice. It's just every person either who is experienced or works in a store will tell me something different and contradictory. But yes since you guys have been in the business more I will take your advice on equipment. I am looking for a soundman and waiting for a call back. I am just very nervous as I wanna send something to festivals and got one shot to film this script well. I just hope the quality is good enough.
We found a guy who has recorded sound for movies and television events, but he says he has never used a zoom or any digital recording device, and always plugged the mics right into the camera. Is that a good sign and he just knows how to make it sound good, or do I need to find someone who has experience with a digital sound recorder?
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What's his CV look like? What does his kit look like? A basic production sound kit usually has a shotgun, a cardioid, a mixer, a recorder and all the accessories like a boom, wind protection, etc. plus a pair of decent quality wireless lavs. (GP can give his list, which is a very nice budget set-up.)
I've recorded direct to camera (I don't know if GP has) but not by choice, and even then the audio implementation on the camera was relatively good. A separate audio recorder is actually the way it was done from the beginning of film sound and it wasn't until the last 20 years or so that indie filmmakers, with the advent of camcorders, started recording audio direct to camera. (ENG - Electronic News Gathering - is a different story altogether.) DSLRs should be treated as film as their audio implementation is atrocious.
A second system - separate audio recorder - gives the sound team a lot more freedom. You do have to sync sound in post, but the scratch track from the camera makes the job easy, and softwares like PluralEyes automates quite a bit of the process. As long as you pay very close attention to details like frame rates and bit/sample rates there should not be much problem with drift unless you are doing extremely long takes.
I've recorded direct to camera (I don't know if GP has) but not by choice, and even then the audio implementation on the camera was relatively good. A separate audio recorder is actually the way it was done from the beginning of film sound and it wasn't until the last 20 years or so that indie filmmakers, with the advent of camcorders, started recording audio direct to camera. (ENG - Electronic News Gathering - is a different story altogether.) DSLRs should be treated as film as their audio implementation is atrocious.
A second system - separate audio recorder - gives the sound team a lot more freedom. You do have to sync sound in post, but the scratch track from the camera makes the job easy, and softwares like PluralEyes automates quite a bit of the process. As long as you pay very close attention to details like frame rates and bit/sample rates there should not be much problem with drift unless you are doing extremely long takes.
Alcove Audio, I just want to commend you on always answering these mic (audio) questions with patience no matter how many times the same questions are asked. I think it might be a good idea if you make a post of FAQ about audio and have it stickied at the top of the forum.
He doesn't have sound equipment. He has the computer programs for post which he is good at, or so I've been told but I will have to get the mic, and possibly the recording device, if I choose to go with a DSLR. He said the sets he has worked on before always supplied him with mics or he would rent them. What if my sound turned out to be as good as say El Mariachi? That film didn't have as good of sound and it was well received. And what if I want him to use a sound recorder? He has never used one, so will he know how as a sound man?
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I'm sorry, but I don't feel he is being entirely honest with you. He sounds like he has experience with television events - probably news, as I do, and little or no experience with movies.
He still might provide some value, but it appears he overstated his credentials.
He's worked on mostly documentaries and documentary shows which he has shown me his work. But that of course is just pointing a cam and a mic at who you are interviewing, which is different than a movie of course. Well I'll keep hunting. Mostly done the sound after post.
Well, that makes sense. A news package is a documentary edited to 1:30.
I'll keep looking and post on kijiji and craiglist. If I can get sound as good as El Mariachi though, will that be enough for the festivals or has the short film quality standards changed since then?
It sounds like your boy has been shining you on, and that's being generous. Even an up-and-comer working for free and just beginning to learn the trade is going to have the beginnings of a production sound kit. And as for his 'post qualifications having a computer and some software does not make someone a sound editor.
I think that it's time for you to get a serious education. Get out there and work on projects as a PA or a gofer. Really watch and observe what's going on; talk to the people who do the jobs. You've posted all kinds of questions all over the forum, but 90% of what we're talking about isn't going to sink in until you've gotten your hands dirty. It's all well and good to want to shoot your own stuff, but at this point you are quite ignorant as to what filmmaking really entails.
BTW, I notice that many people automatically bridle at the word "ignorant." Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. The admission of ignorance is the mark of a truly intelligent person. All knowledge starts with "I don't know" followed immediately by "let's find out" and rolled up shirt sleeves.
I think that it's time for you to get a serious education. Get out there and work on projects as a PA or a gofer. Really watch and observe what's going on; talk to the people who do the jobs. You've posted all kinds of questions all over the forum, but 90% of what we're talking about isn't going to sink in until you've gotten your hands dirty. It's all well and good to want to shoot your own stuff, but at this point you are quite ignorant as to what filmmaking really entails.
BTW, I notice that many people automatically bridle at the word "ignorant." Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. The admission of ignorance is the mark of a truly intelligent person. All knowledge starts with "I don't know" followed immediately by "let's find out" and rolled up shirt sleeves.
Just in case you didn’t know, no sync sound was recorded for El Mariachi. Rodriguez had to shoot his coverage first, then have the actors play out the scene again so he could get in nice and close with his mic and record the sound onto his tape cassette recorder. The sound then had to be synced to the picture in post.
I am finding out as I go, but it's hard since not a lot of movies are shot where I live. I will post an advertisement for a sound man but will ask that he brings his own production sound kit. Is there anything I will need to bring for sound myself, or is there anything in the kit I should make sure he or she has?
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Wow I'm surprised El Mariachi made it as big as it did, since it was dubbed.
You know, just a little searching and some effort on your part could yield results. This is what I mean about getting off of your ass and getting your hands dirty. The search took me about ten seconds, checking sites another three minutes. There's lots of info and opportunity out there if you're willing to look for it.
Here's some helpful information for your area:
http://www.smpia.sk.ca/
http://www.saskfilm.net/
http://www.411.ca/directory/Saskatchewan/Saskatoon/Video-Production-Services.html
Call or email these folks and ask about, well, anything. There are probably lots of people in your situation. Start networking - 80% of filmmaking is networking, getting connected with people who have skills and creative contributions that may be useful to you.
Here's some helpful information for your area:
http://www.smpia.sk.ca/
http://www.saskfilm.net/
http://www.411.ca/directory/Saskatchewan/Saskatoon/Video-Production-Services.html
Call or email these folks and ask about, well, anything. There are probably lots of people in your situation. Start networking - 80% of filmmaking is networking, getting connected with people who have skills and creative contributions that may be useful to you.
Thanks I have been searching more outside the net, like calling places and checking out the university, and contacts I know, to see if they know people. It's not like I haven't been looking. I have also been busy with my other job the past few days. But now that I know to look for someone with a sound kit, that helps. But I will call those places tomorrow. Thanks.
One person on here mentioned that most films are rejected from the festivals 9/10 times, because of poor sound. If that's true, then why did El Mariachi, with not only poor sound, but dubbing, was so well accepted?
Here's the thing though. I am creating adds for hiring a sound man, but it's probably best to hire a beginner. Somewhat who wants to work for cheap (cause I'm on a tight budget). I could ask to see samples of their work but sound on a laptop is probably hard to tell, since it doesn't sound near the same as in the theater. Some sound people record to a laptop while making movies, but are laptops able to capture film festival standard quality sound?
One person on here mentioned that most films are rejected from the festivals 9/10 times, because of poor sound. If that's true, then why did El Mariachi, with not only poor sound, but dubbing, was so well accepted?
Here's the thing though. I am creating adds for hiring a sound man, but it's probably best to hire a beginner. Somewhat who wants to work for cheap (cause I'm on a tight budget). I could ask to see samples of their work but sound on a laptop is probably hard to tell, since it doesn't sound near the same as in the theater. Some sound people record to a laptop while making movies, but are laptops able to capture film festival standard quality sound?
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First, about El Mariachi... It was filmed almost 20 years ago and was one of the films that started the current micro-budget indie film trend. It also had a lot of good things going for it to compensate for the sound quality. Sound was captured on set but so poorly that ADR had to be done to obtain dialog quality. (BTW, get the terminology correct; ADR is the actor replacing his/her own unusable production dialog due to on-set technical problems, dubbing is replacing the original language with another language.) Anecdotally - I've heard from peers that the ADR sessions on El Mariachi were extremely long and "painful".
I was drafted onto my first production sound gig. On a lark I showed up to be an extra on a short film and, because of my audio knowledge, was asked to be production sound mixer. I had lots of recording studio experience, so I already knew about signal flow, levels and gain-staging, etc.
You're going to have to interview a bunch of guys and trust to your instincts about their knowledge; you'll have to separate the ones who know what they're doing from the BS artists. When it comes to using a laptop to record production sound it depends upon what type of audio interface is used - crappy interface = noisy sound, good interface = good sound. Many PSMs use Boom Recorder on their laptop (http://boom-recorder.en.softonic.com/mac). The biggest thing to keep in mind is that a laptop is not very mobile; indie film does a lot of run-and-gun, so most one-man-band production sound guys wear their entire kit while booming; you can't do that with a laptop, that's why a unit like the PMD-661 or FR2-LE (or Zaxcom Deva or Sound Devices) is used.
Like I've said before, get out there and work on other peoples projects; you'll learn a lot and make contacts for you own projects.
I was drafted onto my first production sound gig. On a lark I showed up to be an extra on a short film and, because of my audio knowledge, was asked to be production sound mixer. I had lots of recording studio experience, so I already knew about signal flow, levels and gain-staging, etc.
You're going to have to interview a bunch of guys and trust to your instincts about their knowledge; you'll have to separate the ones who know what they're doing from the BS artists. When it comes to using a laptop to record production sound it depends upon what type of audio interface is used - crappy interface = noisy sound, good interface = good sound. Many PSMs use Boom Recorder on their laptop (http://boom-recorder.en.softonic.com/mac). The biggest thing to keep in mind is that a laptop is not very mobile; indie film does a lot of run-and-gun, so most one-man-band production sound guys wear their entire kit while booming; you can't do that with a laptop, that's why a unit like the PMD-661 or FR2-LE (or Zaxcom Deva or Sound Devices) is used.
Like I've said before, get out there and work on other peoples projects; you'll learn a lot and make contacts for you own projects.
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Okay thanks. There definitely will be run and gun in mine, so that helps. I live in a small city though and perhaps only maybe five guys will apply for the job. So I don't think I'll have a lot to choose from. So how do these sound recording devices capture passable sound, when you don't have the big hard disk drives with all the tuning features?
The same way that DSLRs do - with a flash card.