Anyone film dialogue a lot and use clipon mics? I need 2 of them and in the budget or $20 to $200. I want to stay near $50 and $100. Any good quality mics? Diologue sounds horrible when using only a camcorder.
Need a good mic
- Thread starter Velociraptor451
- Start date
I do this for a living.... so forgive me if my smug bias shows...
Yes. "Clip on" microphones are the norm. Usually called Lavalier Mics. You can't get great mics for $100 each. You can get great used lavs for $150 each... maybe a bit more. So... What should you do? Either rent really nice microphones (maybe $25 to $50 each) http://www.trewaudio.com/rentals/microphones/ .... or hire a professional sound mixer to help you on set.
Why not just buy cheap mics? Because you're trying to make something that sounds better than horrible. Considering you don't know much about mics.... buying cheap mics and using them poorly will just be money wasted.
Reasons to hire a pro.... You can learn something about sound by watching what this person does. So not only is your money creating a better video... but you're getting a lesson at the same time.
"Its not the toys. It's the boys."
What that quote means... buying mics is only half the battle.
Best of luck!
Yes. "Clip on" microphones are the norm. Usually called Lavalier Mics. You can't get great mics for $100 each. You can get great used lavs for $150 each... maybe a bit more. So... What should you do? Either rent really nice microphones (maybe $25 to $50 each) http://www.trewaudio.com/rentals/microphones/ .... or hire a professional sound mixer to help you on set.
Why not just buy cheap mics? Because you're trying to make something that sounds better than horrible. Considering you don't know much about mics.... buying cheap mics and using them poorly will just be money wasted.
Reasons to hire a pro.... You can learn something about sound by watching what this person does. So not only is your money creating a better video... but you're getting a lesson at the same time.
"Its not the toys. It's the boys."
What that quote means... buying mics is only half the battle.
Best of luck!
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I'm not an audio guy but I didn't know Lavs are the norm
fro recording dialogue on a movie. I always see a mic on
a boom pole. But I get you when you say using Lavs takes
a lot of skill.
Velociraptor451, i suggest getting a mic like the one mussonman
linked to, putting it on a pole and recording dialogue that way.
You aren't going to want to use a wired lav and the wireless system
takes some skill and experience. So does good "booming" - placing
the mic in the right place to get clean dialogue tracks is a skill.
But then I don't do audio for a living.
It sounds like your issue is the on camera mic. You just need to get
a mic close the the actors.
Yes sir. Every gig I use a lav mic on every actor with a boom swinging. For complex shoots with fast dialog or distance between actors, we use two booms. Even on simple corporate gigs.... two mics; boom and lav. For run and gun shoots I can make it work with one boom, no problem.... but that's not the "A-game" plan.
The camera-mount shotguns are only good for capturing reference audio. You will still have a bad sound once the camera is more than 3-4 feet away from the subject.
The camera-mount shotguns are only good for capturing reference audio. You will still have a bad sound once the camera is more than 3-4 feet away from the subject.
Great for a show with a budget.
What advice do you have for someone with only the budget
for a mic to improve over their on camera one? Someone
who can't afford to hire a pro with all the gear. Someone who
may not be able to rent each time they shoot.
Would you suggest two lavs? One lav and a mic for the boom?
One good mic for the boom?
I see the advantage for a lav on each actor and a mic for the
boom. For most people just starting and on a limited budget
that seems un attainable.
If you're shooting solo, you're going to be screwed if you're on a limited budget. If you skimp on production sound, you're only postponing the costs into post production (either through reduced options, increased costs to fix issues caused or reduced production value).
My suggestion would be to know what you can shoot (sound wise) with limited gear. Plan your shots accordingly with what you have and build what you have over time. Sound is important. Everyone says it but a lot of the time it seems like lip service.
That complicated steadycam shot with a dozen actors talking in different positions on the screen might not be possible. It's still a solid plan to use a single microphone on a stick, just recognize your ability to capture quality sound will be limited to just that, a single microphone. Capturing dialog in wide shots will be a crap shoot at best and forget about it in extreme wide shots. You'll need people with the ability to ADR in post. You'll obviously capture the best audio in the mids, 2 shots and close ups (which is where you want to be most of the time for dialog anyway).
That all being said, lavs do sound different. They are there to give you options.
So no suggestions at all for a mic shooting solo on a limited
budget other than you're screwed?
Looking forward to hearing from soundslikejoe.
There are suggestions. I hate to see that you ignored them. I'll clarify a little more below.
When solo, yes, you're essentially screwed. If your talent moves, either your camera doesn't move to match or your sound will go off axis. There's not a lot of situations where this won't apply. You can throw the boom up on a C-stand in a pinch, but it's stationary. Yes, I do recognize, you can do a lot of good blocking, but you're handicapped from the get go. It doesn't often make for interesting visuals.
It also depends on what you're shooting. If you're shooting corporate videos in interview situations, it's relatively easy to go solo.
Adjust your shooting (shot lists) and blocking according to the limitations of your sound equipment/budget. The same way you'll do it for your camera dept limitations. Don't paint sound into a bad corner for the sake of a good shot where poor sound will cause it to be left on the cutting room floor or force you to add post production costs that you cannot afford.
Think of it like this: How do I get an aerial establishing shot without a drone, without a budget for helicopter/stock footage? You don't. You simply find another option (find a different vantage point that suits what you need for example) that works within your equipment/budget. It's much the same with sound. You either have what you need or you work out a way to make do without.
I am too. I always like to hear how others do it to see if I can add some ideas to my toolkit.
One last thing I'm sure you're aware of, but other readers may not have thought of. Not everything needs to be recorded. For example, working out how to cleanly record a scene where nothing except music will be heard is a waste of time and resources. Of course the flip is it's nice to have options in post in case your first option doesn't quite work.
If you're shooting solo then you'll get the best mileage out of a lavaliere.
To go very cheaply you could avoid the wireless route and strap the recorder to your actor. Just a recorder with a lav plugged in. But you won't get as good of sound on anyone but the actor with the lav. -- but still better than your on camera mic you have now!
Personally I don't have that option.. just a boom pole and a hypercardiod so I always need someone to help me when filming.
To go very cheaply you could avoid the wireless route and strap the recorder to your actor. Just a recorder with a lav plugged in. But you won't get as good of sound on anyone but the actor with the lav. -- but still better than your on camera mic you have now!
Personally I don't have that option.. just a boom pole and a hypercardiod so I always need someone to help me when filming.
Not ignored.
Still haven't seen a suggestion of a mic from you. How to use one, sure,
but no actual microphone suggestions in the budget range other than
from mussonman. Lots of what you can't do. Lots of good work arounds.
But not one suggestion of a mic in the price range.
But I think of it like this: Need a good drone. Anyone film a lot and use
drones? I need 1 of them and in the budget or $20 to $200. Any good
quality drones?
And everyone tells him what professionals use and how to get around
using a drone. But only one person actually mentions drones in the
price range.
I am just curious about what the pros like you advise a beginner to start
with. But it seems you would rather not offer that information.
It's absolutely standard procedure. I can't remember ever working on a movie which didn't have at least 3 production sound channels (boom + 2 lavs).
In reality, the other way around is just as true; a boom plus lavs setup is "great" for a show because they don't have the budget! Production dialogue can often be "saved" in post by the use of lav isos. There are only alternatives: 1. Having to live with poor quality dialogue, 2. Another usable take without the same problem/s or 3. ADR, which is not only more expensive but also far weaker artistically, especially at lower budget levels where the actors are probably not particularly skilled/experienced at performing ADR. In other words, the question is not so much; can a filmmaker afford to use a boom + lavs setup but can they afford not to?
Something like a Rode Videomic Pro will generally give better sound quality than the built-in camera mics. However, much of the time it won't bridge the gap between "horrible" and decent, it will just be a little less "horrible". Ultimately of course it depends where and to whom the movie is going to be shown and where the individual filmmaker draws the line between "horrible" and acceptable. But, for anything even aspiring towards professional/commercial quality then the answer is essentially yes, "you're screwed".
G
It's a piece of string question. it's like me saying, "What good cheap camera should I buy?" without any information. You know it's situational. I may be thinking a C100MkII and you're wasting your time suggesting GH2.
For the cheap end, it's hard to pass up the bang for buck of the Rode Microphones. I particularly like the NTG-3 as a baseline shotgun. It's somewhat similar to the production staple microphone, the 416. As for Wireless's, there's been many threads that I've seen you involved with. You can go from the Sennheiser G3's, but if the units are going to take even a bit of a beating, it'll be false economy to use them and you'll be better off investing in the Lectos.
As for the recorder/pre-amp, if you're passing it to non-soundie crewmembers to use, you may be better off with a unit that is built well. The last thing you really want is for your recorder to take a tumble and break. For example the Sound Devices range are very sturdy, though cost a lot more. The new Tascam 70D seems decent, it's also very cheap, but may not have features you require and if it's like its predecessor, it may be rather cheaply built and fragile. It's a prosumer unit.
If you're shooting shots for Youtube where most people are simply going to be playing the video through their laptops and iPhones, all this may be way over the top. If you're going for wide cinematic release, it's well under what you need.
There are other questions. For instance, is Timecode going to save you money in the end? Will it be worth making the extra investment? That'll be a useless question if you're shooting with T2i, though it's relevant if you're shooting with a Red.
This is why I no longer get involved with gear questions. They're often a waste of time. It's exactly like what you said regarding the drones. All of the information I've written above is likely to be next to useless without context.
If you really want a beginners equipment list, APE and Alcove past them every now and then. It might be worth taking a look.
In 2004 a film called Primer won the grand jury prize at sundance.
The film maker had no appreciation for production sound and a lot of it was unusable. But he did the ADR himself and he edited it syllable by syllable, by himself on his home computer. And he got some very nice recognition at the end, something that I'm certain anyone here would be very proud of.
Then again, there are scenes in this film that are entirely out of focus. It's quite fascinating how much an audience is willing to forgive if you can captivate them with the story.
The film was written, directed, produced, edited and scored by Shane Carruth, who also stars in the main role.
The film maker had no appreciation for production sound and a lot of it was unusable. But he did the ADR himself and he edited it syllable by syllable, by himself on his home computer. And he got some very nice recognition at the end, something that I'm certain anyone here would be very proud of.
Then again, there are scenes in this film that are entirely out of focus. It's quite fascinating how much an audience is willing to forgive if you can captivate them with the story.
The film was written, directed, produced, edited and scored by Shane Carruth, who also stars in the main role.
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Sfoster, I do. How does the 70D record multiple audio tracks (3 or 4). In the 60D, it did something really stupid. When you recorded two mono tracks, it'd record them as separate wav files, though as soon as you hit 3, it'd force you to have one of the files as a stereo track with left being one iso and right being the other. It was a real drawback of the unit. Is this still the case with the 70D?
What's the battery life like with a single 48 phantom power draw?
Is it a cheap build or does it feel sturdy with this model? Would you be confident it'd survive a fall?
What's the battery life like with a single 48 phantom power draw?
Is it a cheap build or does it feel sturdy with this model? Would you be confident it'd survive a fall?
I haven't tried 3 tracks yet but if someone is considering buying it I'll run a test.
I replace the batteries every 3-4 hours and it's pretty light.
No moving parts but I don't feel comfortable dropping any sort of electronics.
It was an impressive feat for a DIY film. The down-side is that it took Carruth 2 years to do the post production! His next film (Upstream Color) was also a largely DIY film, although this time he got in a more experienced production sound mixer, a much more experienced sound designer and a top sound editor/re-recording mixer.
G
It seems that according to the professionals you're screwed. Long,
detailed posts on how you can't start with low end equipment work
your way up over time if you want.
My experience was different then the audio professionals. I never
became an audio pro but I did start out with cheap equipment and
still managed to make movies and learn. I wasn't screwed at all.
Not top of the line professional, but not screwed either.
Sony has a wireless system that's at the top of your price range. I
suspect the audio pros will warn you away from using this but it is
in your price range.
Audio_Technica has a wireless system that is (at B&H) just $1 more.
Just $2 above that is this one.
Not being an audio professional I suggest you get what you can afford
and learn. As you get more professional you will rent higher end equipment
and hire dedicated audio people who own better equipment.