sound Music With Lyrics

L Trick

L Trick

I've always had trouble getting my mind around splicing music with film. I tend to over-think things to a flaw, but what if there is a word said in the song that doesn't resonate with the themes in the scene?

When I think of music in film, It is a wordless rhythm that follows the tone of the movie; In fact, many of my favorite movies have consisted of a soundtrack with exclusively classical music.

But I would like to put songs with lyrics in the narrative, which would have to be less volume than a wordless song. It's difficult for me to accept music in my narrative, because you focus on the song, when in reality, the audience ignores it as background thunder, flowing with the image (if done right).

So, what I'm mainly asking: Are there select times where music with lyrics should be played, like tracking shots with no dialogue, etc? Or can they flow, even in scenes with dialogue, if put below the volume of the characters?
 
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"I wish you the best of luck together with your guy with the $5k bedroom studio, IMHO, you're going to need it."

You realize that puts me in probably the top 1% of films in the sub $100K budget range right... That we even have a dedicated post audio guy who pretty much knows what he's doing instead of just letting the editor do it.
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
You realize that puts me in probably the top 1% of films in the sub $100K budget range right... That we even have a dedicated post audio guy who pretty much knows what he's doing instead of just letting the editor do it.
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You're missing the issue, your audio post guy may have Protools and be an expert with a shelf full of Oscars and Baftas but with $5k of gear in a bedroom there is no chance of him knowing what he's doing! Any professional sound mixer will tell you exactly the same thing. To have any idea of what you are doing you have to have a monitoring system and environment which matches those in a cinema as closely as possible and you couldn't get further away from this ideal than $5k of equipment in a bedroom! OK, not quite true, you could go for $1k of equipment in a toilet, that would be a little worse but there wouldn't be much in it!

G
 
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APE, sometimes I feel that your posts are unnecessary. Yes, one guy with 5k of gear in a bedroom won't match a specialised team with specialised equipment, but you talk as if it's impossible to do a decent job, which is a lie. It won't match Hollywood, sure, but with the right knowledge you can go a long way. Stop being so argumentative and putting down "the little guy", give people a chance to grow and get off your tyrannical throne once in a while.

I've had enough of reading your hyper-critical posts about how everyone will fail if they don't do things your way. You're not helping anyone, just misleading the uninformed.
 
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MetalRenard said:
Yes, one guy with 5k of gear in a bedroom won't match a specialised team with specialised equipment, but you talk as if it's impossible to do a decent job, which is a lie.
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Why are there so many people here are arguing from a point of zero knowledge and experience? You go ahead and believe what you wish but for those with any interest in the facts, here is another explanation which may help your understanding:

1. Does the sound of a door closing in your bedroom 3' away sound even vaguely similar to a door closing 50' away in a cinema? OK, that takes care of the difference in acoustics.

2. Does a $1k near field monitoring system sound even vaguely similar to a $100k far field monitoring system which doesn't even employ the same type of technology? OK, that takes care of the monitoring system.

3. Add these two differences together!

For the last time, it does not matter what experience you have! If you're working in a bedroom, there is virtually no relation between what you are hearing and what will be heard by the audience in a cinema and so you have no idea what you're doing. MetalRenard if you had been in audio post for longer than 5 minutes you would know this. You would also know that this phenomena is called "translation" and is widely discussed by audio post professionals.

Sure it's better to use an experienced audio post professional in a bedroom than a video editor in an edit suite but without knowing what your work is going to sound like, the chances of even an experienced pro doing a decent job are slim to zero. I'm not talking about competition for a Hollywood mix (absolutely zero), I'm talking about a decent mix. Ask any experienced pro mixer if you don't believe me, there are plenty of them on gearslutz or the ProTools forums. Every single one of them would tell you that due to translation issues neither they nor anyone else could produce a decent film mix in a bedroom. I afraid that by arguing against this basic fact all you are doing is demonstrating your lack of knowledge and experience in the area of film mixing!

It's obvious no one on this thread is interested in the facts and instead want to live in some sort of fantasy land where anything is possible if you wish hard enough and click your heels three times, so I'll leave this thread now and let you enjoy your mutual fantasy together.
 
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With a decently sound configured room and good quality studio monitors you may not be able to properly replicate a theater (which if any of our films got wide enough release to actually worry about that we'd likely have the money for second bite at audio post, which is pretty common), but it can absolutely get you in the ballpark.
 
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Go to typical film festivals that would show your film..
Even the winners have dodgy sound..
when your ready for the big leagues pony up the cash.

bad -> better -> good -> better -> great -> better -> really great -> ...
its called a continuum and we all should be moving from left to right with each project.
 
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Perhaps this forum should have low end and high end theory sections like on Gearslutz when it comes to audio? Because I have noticed in the last couple of months that it has become filled with a case of: 'unless you have a dolby room to do your post in you may as well quit now because your audio will be junk' attitude.
Were Peter Jackson's first attempts at films made in multi million dollar complexes with the best in high end audio equipment, or did he work his way up to that scenario?
Actually I am not serious about having low and high end sections, but I think that the way this has all progresssed recently could perhaps discourage people from starting out, rather than help or encourage them.
To get really top notch audio you need great gear and superb environments to work in, that's a fact, but for at least for the most part, many of those on this forum will be in the basement or on the bottom rung of the ladder so to speak, and so setting a bar height to jump at the Olympics is above where they are at.
Just my two cents worth anyway.
 
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As this thread has largely petered out, I wanted to clarify one or two points because the information I have been trying to provide has been either deliberately or inadvertently misrepresented, either through lack of knowledge or some personal agenda.

For example, it's ridiculous to suggest that I am advocating filmmakers should not bother with sound or should give up. What I am advocating is for filmmakers on this forum to learn the difference between great, competent and poor sound, to be realistic about what is possible to achieve with a given budget and to use this knowledge to be a better, more competitive filmmaker, not to give up!

The simple fact is that cinema sound is the very top of the sound tree (the "Olympics" as someone put it). If you are an actual or aspiring professional, want to enter your short into a film festival (which takes place in a cinema) or screen your short or commercial in a cinema for any other reason, then like it or not, you are at the Olympics! As Wheatgrinder said, "Go to typical film festivals that would show your film.. Even the winners have dodgy sound.. ". This is my experience too. Very, very few micro-budget indie films ever achieve even decent sound (I'm not talking good or great sound, just competent sound). And, the fact remains that more films get rejected by film festivals for problems with the sound than for any other reason. This suggests that many indie filmmaker's concept of "decent sound" does not match up to audiences' or film festivals' concept of "decent sound".

From what I have written previously in this thread I would hope that the average indie filmmaker would take away the following information:

With no budget, the mix you create in your edit suite is going to sound dramatically different in a cinema and so there is no way to know how your dynamics or the balance between you audio elements is going to translate between your edit suite and the cinema. Nothing you can do about that, except to just do the best you can with what you've got. But, at least having an understanding of the existence of this translation problem may help you to avoid some of the pitfalls. In the case of the OP, if you've got music with lyrics playing at the same time as dialogue or some sound FX, it's extremely unlikely that you will be able to get the balance right (when played back in a cinema) unless you've got a serious budget for professional mixing. So if you want to use music with lyrics, try and place it where no other audio is occurring.

If you have a bit of a budget for sound, try and get the best, most experienced audio post guy you can. Never use a music engineer or producer unless you have no choice. Always remember though, that experience is only part of the equation. When hiring a sound designer/mixer ask for photos/information about their room. The further away their room is from the ideal of a top commercial mix room, the less likely it is that they can produce mix which will translate to a cinema. There's no exception to this rule, so don't allow yourself to be convinced otherwise! If you have a little more budget, see if it's possible in your area to hire a Dolby mix room for an hour or so, just to play your mix through. A good sound designer/mixer will be able to use the information gained from this test listening to adjust the mix back in his own room to reduce the most obvious problems and get it more "into the ball park".

One last point, just because it's difficult or near impossible for a micro or no budget film to achieve decent sound should not be taken as a reason to "give up" as MetalRenard implied I was suggesting. Even worse in my opinion, is to take MetalRenard's advice and to tell indie filmmakers their sound is good or decent (when it isn't), just to boost their confidence. Instead, the fact so few low/no budget films achieve decent sound should be taken as a great opportunity by the up and coming filmmaker. If you can be realistic about what's achievable with your budget, try to develop as much objectivity as possible about what constitutes decent sound and put as much into your sound as your budget and time allows, this will greatly help your works to stand out from the crowd of other low/no budget filmmakers. In other words, it could give you a significant advantage which should not be sniffed at in such a competitive field.

G
 
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Dude, just hush. Give these guys a break. You gave your opinion before, I gave mine, the thread died. Let it just die now rather than bringing up old rivalry. I still stand by what I said, you obviously still stand by what you said. No point discussing it more.
 
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MetalRenard, you're really starting to annoy me now. Your only contribution to this thread has been:

1. To give false information in the name of self interest, as the problem the OP is talking about cannot be solved by a composer.

2. To call a very experienced professional a liar and to tell everyone how misleading he's being.

In fact you've never even seen a professional re-recording mixer at work, let alone have any experience of actually doing it yourself! You don't even have any experience (or knowledge) of audio post in general for film or TV, so how do we have in any way an "old rivalry"? Your attempt at self aggrandizement by belittling others who know infinitely more than you is breathtaking!

So please, unless you have any pearls of wisdom which are actually pertinent/useful, butt out!
 
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"Your attempt at self aggrandizement by belittling others"
That's actually my problem with you.

We'll never see eye to eye because I disagree with your approach to teaching others so what's the point in continuing to discuss? < That's what I'm getting at here.
 
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hey, I thought this last post of APE's had some good points that were apropos..

Practical tips:

if you want to use music with lyrics, try and place it where no other audio is occurring.
Click to expand...

If you have a bit of a budget for sound, try and get the best, most experienced audio post guy you can.
Click to expand...

If you can be realistic about what's achievable with your budget, try to develop as much objectivity as possible about what constitutes decent sound and put as much into your sound as your budget and time allows
Click to expand...
 
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So, asking APE's advice with this idea.

Say as an Indie what CAN I do to reduce the expense of post audio?
How much "DIY" upfront can I do and not adversely impact the ability of the mixer?


Do I deliver the audio as separate time aligned audio tracks, a separate track for each line? Or just stems for dialogue?

Stems for sound FX
Stems for Foley
Stems for music
stems for atmosphere\sound scape.
 
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