Let's forever kill the "eye-candy" debate.

Cracker Funk

Cracker Funk

"Oh, man, that pizza was delicious. The combination of crab-meat, with onions, bacon and avacado, wow, I'm blown away".

"No, you idiot. You actually just like it because it was loaded with extra cheese, and in particular, you're not accustomed to having grated parmesan baked on the pizza."

"Hey, don't get me wrong -- I loved the extra cheese, and yeah, it was nice to have fresh parmesan baked on the pizza, but I'm telling you, I really loved the crab-meat/onion/bacon/avacaco flavor-combination."

"Nope. You're an idiot. It was the extra cheese. Plus, they packaged it in a really fancy-looking box, and the Super Bowl commercial had a huge influence over you".

That's what the average "Avatar" debate feels like to me. All these people come around telling me why I like (love) the movie. No, I don't actually love it because of the story. I'm just an idiot. I fell for advertising. I actually only like it because it's eye-candy, and I'm too dumb to tell the difference between something that looks awesome, and something that grabs my heart.

Look, you don't have to like the movie. You don't have to like the story. You can think the story is absolute crap. But don't tell me that I only like it because it's "eye-candy".

Try telling that to these people: http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php

Indietalk is pretty sweet. I'm very glad to be part of this forum. This is a terrific group of people who are passionate about filmmaking, and that's wonderful. But you know what? Learnnavi.org is considerably more active, and it's only been around since January.

Do you really think all those people are learning to speak Na'vi because the movie looks pretty?!

This movie connects with people. It doesn't connect with you? Okay, sorry, I wish it did. But it connects with me. And it connects with a fucking shit-ton of people that I've spoken to, in-person. Don't tell us that we're idiots for liking it. That just makes you an asshole.

And, yes, I am a member of that other forum (though, I'm not active on it). My Na'vi name is Zhowìntll.
 
Don't know if this was directed at my eye candy comment the other day, but if it was.. I wasn't saying that is why you like it, it was just my opinion is all. :)
 
Irayo, ma' tsmukan.

No, this thread isn't directed at you, but thanks for the post. With the re-release in theaters, people are talking about it again, and I kinda just wanna nip this one in the bud, so to say.
 
I enjoyed the "eye-candy" and the story.

Yes, it was simplistic and could have been better.

But I think the reason it touches so many people
(and here is where you hear the critics cry "Cliché!" )
is that Cameron does employ the use of universal archetypes.
There's nothing wrong with that. The best stories utilize them.

I kind of see the Na'vi phenomenon as akin to the Trekkies of the
70's and 80's (hell, they're still around). That's not meant as a
disparaging comparison. On the contrary, I think Star Trek's
appeal was solid and based upon good story telling, using some
of the same archetypes.

I think there's a natural inclination to raise the bar pretty damn high
for someone in Cameron's position, given his talent, experience, and
access to financing for his projects. I honestly think his obsession
with the technology consumed his energy to the point that the story,
and it was a good story, become secondary. It could have been a GREAT story.
But it's what it is: a dazzling display of visual artistry backed up by
cutting-edge CGI and innovative 3D technology used to tell a solidly
good (though not great) story.

It touches a chord in huge numbers of people because of the themes
of bad old technology destroying innocent primitive cultures and ecosystems,
of boy gets girl, loses girl, and gets girl back, of a life-transcending spirituality,
of a damaged warrior finding himself, etc. These are all archetypal story elements
used over and over again in movies and novels, but they are still valid and still
resonate because they are part of human nature.

But what if the substance that the humans mined on Pandora was CRUCIAL for human survival?
Without it the human race would perish? Then the moral dilemma would have
been ratcheted up significantly. I don't bring this up to fault Cameron for not
pursuing such a plot device, but rather to make it clear that there are many ways
he could have gone that would have given more depth to the conflict, and thus
the story, but chose not to.


The bottom line here is I won't make fun of Avatarites, because I think they're on
to something really important (just as I think Trekkies were/are): they're on to the
deep-seated need in human beings to transcend the banal, the unjust,
the venal, the craven, and all the other lower vices that make us human.

It's what dreams are made of...

And yes, here comes Tinkerbell with her fairy-dust...
 
joH'a' 'oH wIj DevwI' jIH DIchDaq Hutlh pagh. Now let's take a deep breath. I personally wasn't impressed with Avatar, but hey I'm a Star Trek nerd, and you can't convince me Star Wars or LotRs is better than Star Trek. However I respect the fact you love Avatar. More power to you. By the way, that jibberish up there is Klingon for,"I understand your trouble." :) Live long and prosper.
 
Cracker I agree with you wholly, but ahonestly being Eye-candy isn't a bad thing. I guess it's degrading in a sense. I view view this movie as art in certain aspects, such as the visuals. The visuals were beautiful and I give Jimmy and his CGI/Art crew three thumbs up (ill have a friend be the third one). But i feel like this thread was unneccesary as it will only cause more drama in my opinion. I believe it's also the drama/flaming war that you aren't trying to go far. I understand how you feel but I don't think this is solving any problems.
 
Blanc/Noir said:
Cracker I agree with you wholly, but ahonestly being Eye-candy isn't a bad thing. I guess it's degrading in a sense. I view view this movie as art in certain aspects, such as the visuals. The visuals were beautiful and I give Jimmy and his CGI/Art crew three thumbs up (ill have a friend be the third one). But i feel like this thread was unneccesary as it will only cause more drama in my opinion. I believe it's also the drama/flaming war that you aren't trying to go far. I understand how you feel but I don't think this is solving any problems.
Click to expand...

I dunno, it seems to be working so far. I'm just trying to tell all the "Avatar" haters that they are free to name all of the numerous reasons why they don't like the movie. Just don't try to tell me why I like it. I think that's something we can agree on (in fact, myself and MGrinstead have already agreed on it, amicably).

Adeimantus, nice post, very well-said.

Murdock, thanks for the Klingon. Are you an original Trekkie, or Next Gen?

droowl, you know me too well! Haha.
 
Cracker Funk said:
Murdock, thanks for the Klingon. Are you an original Trekkie, or Next Gen?
Click to expand...

As far as the series go, I prefer the original series, but I'll watch both. I grew up on reruns in the 80's then TNG came out. Also enjoyed Deep Space 9 for a while, but didn't get into the other spin offs. As far as the movies go, the next generation movies do not exist to me. :) May seem harsh but hey. For example the opening couple scenes from The Final Frontier where theyre in Yellowstone Nat park. You cant beat that chemistry. The new Star Trek was good too. It was a little too effects driven but I think it's okay. Hopefully they can keep this cast together to make more. They tend to come out every 4 years or so....so we'll see.....You asked :)
 
Murdock said:
As far as the series go, I prefer the original series, but I'll watch both. I grew up on reruns in the 80's then TNG came out. Also enjoyed Deep Space 9 for a while, but didn't get into the other spin offs. As far as the movies go, the next generation movies do not exist to me. :) May seem harsh but hey. For example the opening couple scenes from The Final Frontier where theyre in Yellowstone Nat park. You cant beat that chemistry. The new Star Trek was good too. It was a little too effects driven but I think it's okay. Hopefully they can keep this cast together to make more. They tend to come out every 4 years or so....so we'll see.....You asked :)
Click to expand...

Oh, dude, we don't have to hope -- the cast is staying together, and Abrams is directing the next "Trek". This is all official and written in ink (as far as my online snoping can tell).

I have to admit, I'm a bit taken back by your fondness for "Final Frontier". I'm not really a fan of that one. As far as the first ten movies are concerned, my opinions tend to agree with the rule of the odds vs. evens -- all odd-numbered "Treks" are lame; all even-numbered "Treks" are awesome. That is, until Abrams blew everything to smithereens, creating his own rules (and I LOVE the Abrams version).

Oel gnati kameie, ma' tsmukan.
 
Final Frontier is not my favorite. Kahn or Voyage Home would be my favorite. However, Final Frontier was the first Trek movie I saw in the theatre, so I guess it's special; considering I was 10 years old and there was a 3 boobed cat woman w/ tail in the movie.. What I really wanted to do was stress the chemistry the cast had with one another. I guess Star Trek IV would be a abetter example. The whole movie is chock full of chemistry.
 
I will agree that "Voyage Home" is a MUCH better example of chemistry. I love that movie. Well, I suppose it's time for me to finally bow out for the night -- Live long, and Prosper.
 
Cracker Funk said:
"Oh, man, that pizza was delicious. The combination of crab-meat, with onions, bacon and avacado, wow, I'm blown away".

"No, you idiot. You actually just like it because it was loaded with extra cheese, and in particular, you're not accustomed to having grated parmesan baked on the pizza."

"Hey, don't get me wrong -- I loved the extra cheese, and yeah, it was nice to have fresh parmesan baked on the pizza, but I'm telling you, I really loved the crab-meat/onion/bacon/avacaco flavor-combination."

"Nope. You're an idiot. It was the extra cheese. Plus, they packaged it in a really fancy-looking box, and the Super Bowl commercial had a huge influence over you".

That's what the average "Avatar" debate feels like to me. All these people come around telling me why I like (love) the movie. No, I don't actually love it because of the story. I'm just an idiot. I fell for advertising. I actually only like it because it's eye-candy, and I'm too dumb to tell the difference between something that looks awesome, and something that grabs my heart.
Click to expand...

Let me say that I really don't want to offend anyone with my take on films like Avatar, especially not you CrackerFunk since that movie seems to mean a lot to you; however there's nothing wrong with an open but friendly discussion.

Since you started off with comparing films to food, let me do the same thing.
If films like Avatar are pizza then art is like cooking using a recipe, you have to know how to put the things on the recipe together to get an edible meal, but when the cooking's done, and after you filled your stomach, you're not only no longer hungry but you have also learnt something.
Sure, you could eat pizza all the time, it's easier and if you've never cooked before it will also taste better, but if pizza's the only thing you ever eat, you get sick (and overweight).
That's one of the reasons why films like Avatar are the most successful: instant gratification.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."
 
Murdock said:
As far as the series go, I prefer the original series, but I'll watch both. I grew up on reruns in the 80's then TNG came out. Also enjoyed Deep Space 9 for a while, but didn't get into the other spin offs. As far as the movies go, the next generation movies do not exist to me. :) May seem harsh but hey. For example the opening couple scenes from The Final Frontier where theyre in Yellowstone Nat park. You cant beat that chemistry. The new Star Trek was good too. It was a little too effects driven but I think it's okay. Hopefully they can keep this cast together to make more. They tend to come out every 4 years or so....so we'll see.....You asked :)
Click to expand...

Yup, TOS had the best chemistry and i like all the movies but im partial to the undiscovered country.
 
bhikkhu said:
Let me say that I really don't want to offend anyone with my take on films like Avatar, especially not you CrackerFunk since that movie seems to mean a lot to you; however there's nothing wrong with an open but friendly discussion.

Since you started off with comparing films to food, let me do the same thing.
If films like Avatar are pizza then art is like cooking using a recipe, you have to know how to put the things on the recipe together to get an edible meal, but when the cooking's done, and after you filled your stomach, you're not only no longer hungry but you have also learnt something.
Sure, you could eat pizza all the time, it's easier and if you've never cooked before it will also taste better, but if pizza's the only thing you ever eat, you get sick (and overweight).
That's one of the reasons why films like Avatar are the most successful: instant gratification.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."
Click to expand...

Hehe. I like this food-as-movie debate. Way more fun.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should live off a diet of just pizza. Not only would that be incredibly unhealthy, but that'd just be weird. I mean, why would you even want to do that?

I think at least one thing we can agree on is that it's good to have a variety -- I love a city that offers a great deal of different types of cuisines, done differently by different restaurants. What's that they say? Variety is the spice of life?

Needless to say, that doesn't mean we should never eat pizza. I mean, it can be pretty darned delicious.

:D
 
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