Legal usage of 1980s music?

Yodaman

Yodaman

Hey everyone,

I plan to make a movie that uses some rather well-known '80s songs (and some not-so-well-known). I will not be selling the movie (it will be made with a Canon HF S100) and will be posting it publicly to vimeo.com when it's done (in a year or so, depending on several things). My question is this; if I can get in contact with the people who actually wrote the songs (Howard Jones, Def Leppard, Heart, Bon Jovi), and told them that I would NOT be selling the movie (and gave them a preview), do you think they'd let me use their music? Also, do you think it's nothing more than a dream to actually get in contact with the people I've listed? Would anything else be required for me to use their music legally?

I'm very new at this, i.e., terms of legal usage of music. Usually I just use royalty free music created by Kevin MacLeod, but that simply will not work for my film. It needs a definite '80s sound to compliment its overall retro-feel/design.

Thanks to all who give me advice! :)
-Yodaman
 
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All songs and the recordings of those songs are
subject to copyright. That is the right to copy.
Selling the movie or making any profit has nothing
to do with the owners right to decide who can use
a copy of their song.

Most of the time the original song writer does not
have a say in how the song is used. You will need
to find out who owns the publishing rights. I do
believe it's nothing more than a dream to actually
get in touch with the people you've listed. They get
tens of thousands of requests a month. It would be
very difficult for them to know the difference between
a fan and a serious filmmaker who needs their music
for their movie.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. If you don't
try you know you cannot get permission. If you do...
 
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You'll have your work cut out for you, that's for sure!

Even if you could get in touch with the actual artists, in most cases they couldn't give you the permission you need anyway. While they may own the song itself, the recordings are usually owned by the record company, and they are in the business of making money.

If you're just doing the project for your own amusement/learning with no plans to distribute it, I wouldn't worry about it. Theoretically you could be sued, but it's more likely you'd receive a "cease and desist" letter from their attorney, if anything. In which case, just re-edit the thing with different music.

I don't know what Vimeo's policies are regarding copyrighted content; I imagine the worst they would do is remove your posting.

edit: Beat to the punch by Rik again! :)
 
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Even if you could get in touch with the actual artists, in most cases they couldn't give you the permission you need anyway. While they may own the song itself, the recordings are usually owned by the record company, and they are in the business of making money.
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Yeah, that's what I was mostly afraid of. If I somehow did get in touch with all of the artists I listed, and even if they said I could use their songs, the record company might disagree and tell me to change the music.

If you're just doing the project for your own amusement/learning with no plans to distribute it, I wouldn't worry about it. Theoretically you could be sued, but it's more likely you'd receive a "cease and desist" letter from their attorney, if anything. In which case, just re-edit the thing with different music.

I don't know what Vimeo's policies are regarding copyrighted content; I imagine the worst they would do is remove your posting.
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The project is definitely more for amusement than anything. It's a spoofish sci-fi film that will have the "look" of all of the '80s sci-fi films. For example, I'm actually going to use wooden models for spaceships instead of using a 3D modeling/animation program, and I'm going to attempt to make the special effects look older/less digital. I'll do most of that by doing the effects "in camera" like they used to, although the majority of the compositing will most definitely be digital. I even plan to give the footage a slight "degraded" look to make it look like it's on a VHS tape as well. :P

If I get a letter from the attorneys, I'd gladly re-edit the soundtrack. As far as I know, Vimeo's okay with letting copyrighted music in videos, as long as you credit the artists/record company and don't sell the video to anyone (which is not the plan anyway, this is all just for fun). I will double and triple check their policies before I do anything though, and make sure of it.

I do believe it's nothing more than a dream to actually
get in touch with the people you've listed. They get
tens of thousands of requests a month. It would be
very difficult for them to know the difference between
a fan and a serious filmmaker who needs their music
for their movie.
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Pretty much exactly my thoughts as well. Not only would it be extremely difficult to actually get an answer from them, but the chances of even actually finding a way to get in touch with them are incredibly slim. I might still try, though. :)

Thanks for the responses guys!
 
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As far as I know, Vimeo's okay with letting copyrighted music in videos, as long as you credit the artists/record company and don't sell the video to anyone.
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I don't think so. Vimeo sez "You must own or hold all necessary rights (copyrights, etc.) to the videos." This includes all the parts of the video, i.e. the soundtrack. The most they would probably do is remove the upload, but I just don't want you to think that there are entities out there promoting, accepting or allowing copyright infringement. There are no loopholes to the law, no matter how many times you credit the artists/record company or how little money you make.

This is just one of those challenges to us as filmmakers, though...can you tell this story without using copyrighted songs? If not, can you find musicians who can recreate the feel of the songs you want to use?

Accept the challenge!
 
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And then there is the ethical obligation of one artist to another.
Whether or not YOU will make any money isn’t the real issue. I
have a very difficult time understanding why one artist (a
filmmaker) would copy without permission the works of another
artist (the musician).

I’m afraid this ethical issue is limited to us old people who,
once upon a time, had to BUY music. The ethics of copyright is
quickly becoming an antiquated concept.

This is nothing against you, Yodaman. I’m just feeling old. So
much of the music industry has died due to copying and “sharing”
and the movie industry is heading down that path. It’s getting
easier and easier to get your product seen - it’s getting harder
and harder to make a living because people no longer feel they
should pay for what they listen to and watch and use for their own
projects.

BTW - it’s very easy to get in touch with the publisher.
Publishers have entire divisions of their companies that do one
thing; license music. They want you to get in touch with them. I
was saying you won’t be able to get in touch with the band members
and songwriters to ask for special permission.
 
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Don't bother contacting the Harry Fox Agency or whoever it is. They are out of touch with reality. I've described in other posts about how they wanted like $2,000 just to license rights for use the song in FESTIVALS for 6 months for an old 80's song (that most people never heard and in fact most people never heard of the band). Don't bother.

Having said that, everyone is posting videos with songs without permission. Usually the "copyright police" will order YouTube to remove the video -- no lawsuits or any of that. I'd just put a little promotion at the start and end, advertising the album that the song is on.
 
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And then there is the ethical obligation of one artist to another.
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That's all that should matter. And then you read post after post after post concerned with nothing other than lawsuits. And the obligatory "I'll give them proper credit, and hence won't feel guilty."

What troubles me most is this contemporary notion that if everyone does it it can't possibly be wrong. Well, it IS wrong, and it should be called out, and we as artists should be better than that. We should rise to the challenge to create new things.
 
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Blade_Jones said:
Having said that, everyone is posting videos with songs without permission. Usually the "copyright police" will order YouTube to remove the video -- no lawsuits or any of that. I'd just put a little promotion at the start and end, advertising the album that the song is on.
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And this is why I wrote what I wrote.
 
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Have to agree Rik and UC... this is why I've struggled to use music created specifically for my films. Most recently, I actually got licensing from Canyon Records (Native American Music) for a documentary. Festivals, 2 years of my website and youtube but no distribution. They were very nice to work with.

It was a great experience and I feel as if I've made a stride forward in the business side of my filmmaking education.
 
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This is just one of those challenges to us as filmmakers, though...can you tell this story without using copyrighted songs? If not, can you find musicians who can recreate the feel of the songs you want to use?

Accept the challenge!
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Definitely can't tell the story without the music, but it just so happens that I know several talented musicians who could perhaps help me with some '80s sounding music. So that is most definitely an option. I've also got a couple of keyboards lying around, so it wouldn't be too hard to write my own music either...it's just a matter of patience in my case. :P

And then there is the ethical obligation of one artist to another.

So much of the music industry has died due to copying and “sharing”
and the movie industry is heading down that path. It’s getting
easier and easier to get your product seen - it’s getting harder
and harder to make a living because people no longer feel they
should pay for what they listen to and watch and use for their own
projects.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I'm young, but I completely understand what you're saying. There's too many people out there that don't respect other artists, or pay for the things they want (songs, movies, games). It's appalling.

What troubles me most is this contemporary notion that if everyone does it it can't possibly be wrong. Well, it IS wrong, and it should be called out, and we as artists should be better than that. We should rise to the challenge to create new things.
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I completely agree.

Thanks for your input everyone! I'm thinking I'll write to vimeo and the record companies and see what they say about using their music in a not-for-proft "film". Maybe they'll say yes. :) If they don't, then I could always ask Kevin MacLeod (or my musical friends) to write the soundtrack.
 
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First off, nobody's a bigger advocate of respecting the rights of an artist than I am. My work gets ripped off all the time by clients who copy my DVDs rather than buying them from me. It sucks.

On the other hand, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that, when I first began making Super-8 shorts in the late '70s and early '80s I used Pink Floyd and Wagner recordings behind them. They were never going to be seen by anyone except me and my friends. It was a learning process, and even if I'd had access to a composer it would've seemed to me a waste of his/her talents to spend time scoring something that was just for my personal benefit.

Granted, with the emergence of the Internet as a screening venue the prospective audience has broadened, which perhaps warrants a paradigm shift. If a beginning filmmaker has access to original music and it will serve his needs, he'd be a fool not to take advantage of that.

I don't know the age or experience level of the OP; I assumed he's a novice since he asked the question. I'm all for encouraging mutual respect among artists, and would expect nothing less from any mature filmmaker, but does this always have to turn into a scolding session? How about encouraging experimentation first, then cautioning?

On the other hand (the third hand?), Yodaman, if this is a serious project and you can have original music recorded for it, don't waste your time tilting at windmills.

Okay, lemme have it.
 
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I'm all for encouraging mutual respect among artists, and would expect nothing less from any mature filmmaker, but does this always have to turn into a scolding session? How about encouraging experimentation first, then cautioning?
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I didn't want to sound like I was scolding! Far from it. But I think there is an education fail out there now, because of things like Vimeo and Youtube and filesharing. There is a notion that Youtube or Vimeo somehow writes the law on copyright, and this is a falsity I think it's correct to point out.

I agree with you...a paradigm shift is needed, and I think the line should be drawn at your living room. Showing on Youtube or Vimeo or to anyone outside your home is a public presentation.

Hey, my first experiment in film was a story about finding a box of old mixtapes and using them (coupled with an enchanted Subaru with a tapedeck) to travel back in time. Like most first movies, it was full of too much dialog about the songs on the mixtapes and featured far too many scenes of guys driving around listening to them. There was no way to tell that kind of personal story without using the songs. But I still wanted to make the movie, so I had to know there was no way I could ever show it outside my living room.
 
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Blade_Jones said:
Usually the "copyright police" will order YouTube to remove the video -- no lawsuits or any of that. I'd just put a little promotion at the start and end, advertising the album that the song is on.
Click to expand...

I don't think a little promotion will alleviate the copyright violation, nor will it prevent the video from being removed, especially from VIMEO. They are way more sensitive about copyrighted material being used as they are not as big as YOUTUBE and have a lot more to lose.

I'm with D. Don't use copyrighted material in your movie without permission. It's not right on every level, moral, ethical, and last but not least, legal.

Imagine if someone used your movie without permission, put it on screen in their film and mocked it, saying it was the worst movie ever made. It wouldn't be good and you'd probably want to have it removed or exercise your rights as the copyright holder. As the owner of the copyright, that person holds the right to say how and where it will be used.

We must all respect that.

YODA, you're a good kid. You'll do the right thing.
 
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If a beginning filmmaker has access to original music and it will serve his needs, he'd be a fool not to take advantage of that.
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I agree. I'm definitely going to ask my friends if they could help me out with creating some music. If I show them the songs I want to use and ask them to use similar sounds (synthesized brass and bass tones for example), then I can get exactly the retro sound I'm looking for and won't have to worry about paying royalties or contacting lawyers to get permission from record companies. :P

I don't know the age or experience level of the OP; I assumed he's a novice since he asked the question.
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I am 18, and a bit of a novice. I have been experimenting with video since I was about 12 and have even done some "fancy" special effects by myself with free software that converts .AVI footage into separate .JPEG files and loading them into GIMP, but I'm a novice when it comes to legalities of using music. I do have experience with framing shots and directing photography as well, but that's it.

I've decided to go with asking my friends to help me write some music. I think it will help me gain experience working with other artists, and will help give the film a "distinct yet familiar" sound. It will also be incredibly fun. :)

Oh, another quick question; my role in the movie will require that I wear Converse shoes. If I make sure the Converse logo is always blocked by my jeans, will I be fine, or do I have to consider a different option for footwear?

Thanks again for your input everyone! I really appreciate it. :)

EDIT: Thanks sonnyboo. :)
 
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Hmm...

So, in other words, as long as I cover the Converse logo/Trademark with my jeans (or even stich a fake brand name over it), I'll be fine?

Thanks for the link!

EDIT:

The shoes won't be seen that often anyway, mostly likely in just a couple of scenes.
 
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They're not a major part of the story, they're just to help establish the "feel" of the film and overall style. I plan on only showing them a couple of times (one brief shot in the beginning of the film and another later on, plus some inevitable shots where I'm far away from the camera), so I think as long as I cover the logo completely I will be fine. :)

Thanks again everyone!
 
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Yodaman said:
as long as I cover the Converse logo/Trademark with my jeans (or even stich a fake brand name over it), I'll be fine?
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You can do that if you want. Again, I personally wouldn't worry about it unless, as pinehill says, you're focusing on the shoes for some reason.

I can think of no better litmus test than Sonnyboo's example of the first Clerks movie. With all its potentially objectionable content and worldwide distribution, they evidently didn't encounter any trademark infringement concerns.
 
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