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It is utterly IMMORAL to encourage new writers

I am utterly baffled why so many would engage in the raw evil of encouraging new writers.

There are four very, very good reasons why one should never encourage new writers:-

1. Encouraging new writers is the equivalent of trying to popularise taking up Russian Roulette as a sport. It is going to be an utter beating out there. 250,000 screenplays arrive each year in Tinseltown, of which just 600 are made and about 200 provide a sustainable living.

2. In an already crowed, packed field, encouraging someone talentless undermines hard working talented people, struggling to make ends meet.

3. In encouraging talentless people to take up writing, one is, de facto, encouraging them NOT to do what they are actually talented at, deriving them of a living and the world of whatever they are actually taleted at.

4. People generally work hard for their money. It is disgusting to see audiences waste their hard earned dough of watching utter crap produced from someone's bad screenplay.
 
>>>>that would be a sure sign that your "friend" and her friend have NO connections with Warner Bros.<<<<

... Then please explain how I reached the producer by directly calling her at Wornout Brothers main switchboard? And how come she is on their payroll and staff lists then? And if the producer who you claim had no connection with Wornout Brothers, despite being on their payroll and staff lists and is reached via the main Warnout Borthers main switchboard, told me that she did not have it to hand as it was in the hands of the people looking at budgets for it?
 
I've been searching the Internet. Do you have a citation or link that backs up that statement:

"3 out of every 5 people int he audience who paid to see "The Island" had left the cinema before the 20 minutes mark."?

I've only found fairly positive reviews. Just curious where you read this or are pulling this from.

Fair comment - that's what i heard on TV some time ago. However, my owen experience seems to back this up as the bit that it is not an island, the last refuge of man is known by very few people that I have spoken to. Most who have seen any of it think its just a post-apocalyptic flick.
 
It was thewn expalined to me that it was expected of me to enter a sexual relationship with this woman and her producer friend at Worn-out Brothers. I was stunned and so phoed her directly and discovered that it was true. I bluntly refused.

:lol:

That's hilarious. It is comedy that you write, right?


Oh, and there are a number of typos in your posts. There are two in the short quote above. Maybe you should check your writing before you post. You do check your screenplays before sending them off, right?
 
Look, my central point is this...

There are many who believe that you should not say anything bad about a new writer's "work" or he will become discouraged. WRONG! People should be told the truth about what they have written... if it's dysfunctional tripe, filled with typos, written sloppily in uniintelligible slang then tell them that.

For the record, that does happen here. I've done a little of that myself. But that doesn't -and shouldn't, in my opinion- include being callous, contemptuous, or mean-spirited about it.

So I take it you're one of those 'I tell it like it is,' kind of people. To each his own, I guess. But it's all the more peculiar, as FantasySciFi has pointed out, coming from someone who, I suspect, willfully peppers his/her posts with typos (or willfully neglects to check for and correct them) and, to put it charitably, makes less than sound and less than kind proclamations.

You also leave me with the impression that English is not your first language. And, as FSF has also pointed out, you ought to be given generous leeway considering that. However, it feels a little...inappropriate(?)... giving you such leeway when you yourself seem a little deficient in the generosity of spirit department toward other writers and aspirants.

It reminds me of the proverb, 'those who live in glass houses... '

"Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work."

- Stephen King

Gold. Truth. Maybe also something like Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hours of practice?

(God. I'm never going to put 10,000 hours of practice into filmmaking, am I? :()

^^^ What FantasySciFi said - spot on.

I'd only add that when I'm asked to critique someone's script, I ALWAYS (and I do mean ALWAYS) mention something in it that I like, because it makes the negatives go down more easily.

Like a 'spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down'? Words to live by.

I'll give it to editor for the click-bait titles.
He's got it going on.

:yes:

I am starting to believe he is a common garden variety troll.
Perhaps an admin could read over his posts and make a decision.

Seems like a real possibility.

On the other hand, on the plus side, even if that's true, you, Editor, clearly wanted to stir the pot, which you have done. And a conversation resulted.

A conversation perhaps worth having. So maybe it's all good, after all.

That is, so long as it doesn't actually turn would-be writers or filmmakers away or drive them to give up. But that shouldn't happen since IT member responses have been the "right" responses! It seems to me that the bulk of members responding have soundly rejected the OP's premise. Therefore, one might reasonably say that the IT community has defined itself by its reaction to this thread: IT is not about killing dreams.

That's a good result, isn't it?

:)
 
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New doesn't mean bad...
If nobody started off new at anything then none of the writers that are around today would be around... in fact nobody would do anything if they were told 'you can't do that because lots of people do it'.

Plus you say that 200 out of 250 000 people get a stable career out of it. By your own statistics I'd say that's pretty good for a profession that new people shouldn't go into.
 
:lol:

That's hilarious. It is comedy that you write, right?


Oh, and there are a number of typos in your posts. There are two in the short quote above. Maybe you should check your writing before you post. You do check your screenplays before sending them off, right?

My apologies for my typos. I have major problems with my eyesight which deteriorates almost by the day.
 
For the record, that does happen here. I've done a little of that myself. But that doesn't -and shouldn't, in my opinion- include being callous, contemptuous, or mean-spirited about it.

So I take it you're one of those 'I tell it like it is,' kind of people. To each his own, I guess. But it's all the more peculiar, as FantasySciFi has pointed out, coming from someone who, I suspect, willfully peppers his/her posts with typos (or willfully neglects to check for and correct them) and, to put it charitably, makes less than sound and less than kind proclamations.

You also leave me with the impression that English is not your first language. And, as FSF has also pointed out, you ought to be given generous leeway considering that. However, it feels a little...inappropriate(?)... giving you such leeway when you yourself seem a little deficient in the generosity of spirit department toward other writers and aspirants.

It reminds me of the proverb, 'those who live in glass houses... '



Gold. Truth. Maybe also something like Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hours of practice?

(God. I'm never going to put 10,000 hours of practice into filmmaking, am I? :()



Like a 'spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down'? Words to live by.



:yes:



Seems like a real possibility.

On the other hand, on the plus side, even if that's true, you, Editor, clearly wanted to stir the pot, which you have done. And a conversation resulted.

A conversation perhaps worth having. So maybe it's all good, after all.

That is, so long as it doesn't actually turn would-be writers or filmmakers away or drive them to give up. But that shouldn't happen since IT member responses have been the "right" responses! It seems to me that the bulk of members responding have soundly rejected the OP's premise. Therefore, one might reasonably say that the IT community has defined itself by its reaction to this thread: IT is not about killing dreams.

That's a good result, isn't it?

:)

My screenplays are rigourously checked over and over and over and over again.
 
Editor, I believe you've had some negative experiences. That's part of normal course of learning. Unfortunately without a mentor, it's easy to get mixed up in bad practices. That's part of the reason groups like this exist, to provide guidance. It doesn't mean it's always solid or works for everyone, but you get various opinions from people who've been there. I think you have insights to contribute to the IT community.

You have strong feelings which come out in your comments. That is not enough to have you banned. PaulW and others have commented how much they appreciated some of the notes you've sent them. In your personal note to me, I had the sense you were deeper than comes across on the board. That's the person whose inputs would be valued here.

I'm not suggesting you put on a facade when posting here. I agree there is a value in honesty to help new writers hone their skills. though I feel it needs to be tempered. While hyperbole will catch people's attention (Immorality of encouraging new writers, Fascist equivalence of not following old capitalization practices, etc.), it wears on people. You have the opportunity to be a part of a network where your contributions are valued.

This is NOT one of the elitist critique groups. Most of the scripts here are first or rough drafts, not final versions heading off to competitions. The writers are looking for guidance and feedback to plan for their next revision. Most are not finalized. We are NOT competing with each other for some small number of spots. While some will submit to contests, others, as I said, plan to shoot these themselves with their own cameras and crews. We have one writer on this group who is a two time quarterfinalist in the Nichols as well as others who have placed in various screenwriting competitions. They ask advice and provide it. I can say they are never brutal about it.

I'm not saying everyone in this group is in perfect agreement or doesn't have squabbles. I think some of the most interesting discussions have arisen from seemingly innocuous posts. Everyone here has creative opinions which minimizes groupthink. (What I think stinks, another person loves. Go figure. You'd think they know I'm right by now. :no: ) But seriously, I believe you have experience and insight to contribute. Everyone here has seen movies and television so has something to contribute, even new writers.

It's the people who dig their heels into the sand to rigidly defend elitist, exclusivist attitudes and belittle others that lose out. With ideas set in stone, they have no way to grow and repeat the same litany until no one listens. And when they become increasingly belligerent, they get banned. Though even in this group, the admins tend to give warnings.

You've copyrighted three screenplays. New writers can learn from that. Where did you get the ideas? How did you approach doing the research? How did you approach writing them? etc. Those aspects are valuable contributions. I hope you add your ideas and approaches to the discussions. We're not just about critiques but about helping others learn. Writing standards and practices change. I learn too. We aren't in competition with each other with something to prove. I think that's the key IndieTalk difference.
 
Some screenplays are pure an utter bunk. It is disturbing to see them made and to see people's hard earned cash wasted on them. As someone who was once so homeless and without ANY income and so broke that I spent 12 days living on nothing more than the free cups of coffee from my bank ( it became increasingly obvious as I kept checking my balance every four hours to get the free cup of coffee), I truly appreciate the value of money and it makes me puke to see some guy who has slung together some drivel, clearly without even the slightest of inspiration or original idea, getting made as he has networked successfully (I can't as factors beyond my control stop me) and is just there to milk the public.

Until you have seen, "Outside Ozona" and "8 Women", one realy can'ty say one has really experienced what it is like to be cheated at the box office.

Giving phoney pats on the back to a lazy, vacuous scam artist is an insult to those who do work hard.
 
Some screenplays are pure an utter bunk. It is disturbing to see them made and to see people's hard earned cash wasted on them. As someone who was once so homeless and without ANY income and so broke that I spent 12 days living on nothing more than the free cups of coffee from my bank ( it became increasingly obvious as I kept checking my balance every four hours to get the free cup of coffee), I truly appreciate the value of money and it makes me puke to see some guy who has slung together some drivel, clearly without even the slightest of inspiration or original idea, getting made as he has networked successfully (I can't as factors beyond my control stop me) and is just there to milk the public.

Until you have seen, "Outside Ozona" and "8 Women", one realy can'ty say one has really experienced what it is like to be cheated at the box office.

Giving phoney pats on the back to a lazy, vacuous scam artist is an insult to those who do work hard.
I could never understand the 'pet rock' craze (yeah, I'm that old!). People spending money for a painted rock in box with a printed certificate. Honestly, it's more a testimony to the stupidity of humanity. I have very similar sentiments about the series of "Jackass" movies. Is there really something funny in seeing someone get injured doing a stupid stunt? Sometimes 'bad' can be fun and achieve cult status. And if you step back, I think you'll find you're already successfully networking within this group.

You hit on some bad times. And when that happens, it turns the whole world upside down. Our own struggles seem monumental compared to others who seem to achieve things with no effort. Some people are incredibly blessed. For many, there is a lot of struggle to make things happen that doesn't get seen. There are contributors on IndieTalk forums (not just Screenwriting) from Canada to hook up with. If you can help them out on their films, they may be able to help you out in shooting one of your scripts.
Hollywood is not the only place that great films are made. The Toronto and Vancouver film communities have grown. Even in the USA, Atlanta is quickly becoming the 'new Hollywood'.

It's always possible to network. You could offer to teach a screenwriting class for the library there. You can check with the local colleges. Even just participating on IndieTalk, you are likely to find people in Ottawa. Just a quick check of Craigslist for Ottawa had a request for a writer:

http://ottawa.craigslist.ca/tfr/4860643743.html (LOOKING FOR VOLUNTEER ACTORS/ACTRESSES/WRITERS/PRODUCTION (Ottawa))
http://ottawa.craigslist.ca/wri/4882594842.html (Sci-fi, Fantasy, Adventure, Historical Fiction Writers Wanted)
http://montreal.craigslist.ca/wrg/4933468993.html (Director searching for a writer. Short films, Feature, Web Series (Montreal))

Don't overlook the obvious! I know I sound like a broken record, but getting active is the best way to break in and become successful. Just waiting for someone to notice you rarely works. Good luck!
 
...

Don't overlook the obvious! I know I sound like a broken record, but getting active is the best way to break in and become successful. Just waiting for someone to notice you rarely works. Good luck!

One of my teachers said this to me:
you make beautiful things in your little room, but you need to get out and let people know what you do.
 
The fairytale most budding writers imagine is near enough an impossible dream. That fairytale being, I'll write a spec screenplay as an unknown writer which will blow readers away, submit it to a production company who will offer me a million dollars for it and the rest will be history. I'd suggest the odds of that happening is more like 1 in 100,000.

To "make it" in this industry as a new spec writer with no representation is near enough impossible. To submit a spec script that does get accepted, bought and developed will only happen for the lucky 1 in 100,00, otherwise you have to be established in another field within the industry. If you get any sort of recognition as a self-made writer/director (i.e. acceptance into medium/high profile festivals) then that helps.

In my opinion, if you are brand new to the industry with no contacts or experience it really isn't worth the effort/time/risk these days in writing a spec script in the hope it takes you anywhere. In reality, the best option is to try and produce your own script yourself even on a micro-budget and then use the "finished" product as a proof of concept by getting recognition in submitting to festivals or even using it as a proof of concept via Indiegogo/Kickstarter.
 
The tone of your OP suggests someone who is purposefully making outlandish, hyperbolic statements in an effort to attract attention. I'm not going to condemn that out of hand, because more than likely it means you care about writing and just want to talk about it. So yeah, that's the upside. Unfortunately, nearly everything you said can be refuted (and has been by other posters in this thread).

I am utterly baffled why so many would engage in the raw evil of encouraging new writers.

Why is it wrong to encourage someone to pursue their dreams? The majority of people who try screenwriting will make a half-ass attempt and fail miserably, then go about their lives. For them, dreams of being a writer are a temporary diversion from life's monotony, and soon enough they will be on their way. Others will try very hard, but just not succeed. Some of those people will be destroyed by the process and failure; others will learn from the experience and use it to make their lives better in a different capacity. And then there are the lucky few, those who get to spend their days doing the very thing they love -- crafting stories that move and touch other human beings.

Whether one succeeds or fails in screenwriting is entirely dependent on the effort they put into the endeavor, and whether or not they have a compelling story to tell. Kill the ego. Learn the craft. Tell the story.

There are four very, very good reasons why one should never encourage new writers:-

Four? Are you sure it's not three? Or five? What about zero?

1. Encouraging new writers is the equivalent of trying to popularise taking up Russian Roulette as a sport. It is going to be an utter beating out there. 250,000 screenplays arrive each year in Tinseltown, of which just 600 are made and about 200 provide a sustainable living.

Almost all of those screenplays are not worth the paper they are written on. They are written by people with outsized egos, who put little or no effort into learning what it takes to write a good story. Often, they don't even have a good story to tell. In fact, almost all failed screenplays fall into one of two categories:

1. The egotistical person who fills pages and pages with delusions of their own grandeur, some contrived writing exercise meant to show off how great they are, with the full expectation that everyone reading their story will feel the same.

2. The person seeking a shoulder-to-cry-on script. These people want an outlet to vent their mundane frustrations in life, and let's face it, we hear sob stories all the time. They might be interesting to you if they are your own problems, but nobody else cares.

Invariably, the people writing those scripts fail, but because they can't imagine the fault is their own, they blame the system for keeping them down. Their problem is that they overvalue themselves, as they probably do in all walks of life, and they soon move onto some other hobby in their quest for adulation or sympathy, whichever the case may be.

The serious writer, on the other hand, will accept failure as a consequence of one of two things: either they didn't have a compelling story to tell (yet); or they weren't able to tell it effectively. In the first case, they will keep searching for truth and beauty in life. In the second case, they will put forth more effort into learning the craft and improving their writing. You can cite large numbers in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of scripts per year if you want, but the fact remains that a really good script is up against almost no competition in the marketplace.

2. In an already crowed, packed field, encouraging someone talentless undermines hard working talented people, struggling to make ends meet.

Again, that "crowded, packed field" is filled almost entirely with bad scripts. If a talented writer is struggling to make ends meet, it means they either don't have a good story to tell and/or they haven't taken the time to learn the craft. In either case, perhaps the problem is that they value their talent too much. Kill the ego. Learn the craft. Tell the story. That's my motto.

3. In encouraging talentless people to take up writing, one is, de facto, encouraging them NOT to do what they are actually talented at, deriving them of a living and the world of whatever they are actually taleted at.

Talented ... you keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means. Writing is not monolithic. There are innumerable aspects to writing, from word choice, to style, to pacing and rhythm, to humor, to ... I mean the list goes on. Even someone generally considered a talented writer will have their strengths and weaknesses. The ancient Greeks, including Plato, were famous for the saying "Know Thyself." An aspiring writer will figure out their own strengths and weaknesses, through trial and error. If they truly know themselves, they will subsequently make a good choice on whether they should give up writing or continue to work harder in pursuit of their dreams.

4. People generally work hard for their money. It is disgusting to see audiences waste their hard earned dough of watching utter crap produced from someone's bad screenplay.

Depending on the economy, there are X amount of dollars each year that investors are willing to pour into movies. Believe it or not, the ones that get made are (mostly) the best scripts that year. In the case that well-connected people get their bad films made, it's because there is a lack of good scripts, and the investors latch onto names with a good track record. It's all about dollars and cents.

If you think it's disgusting that people waste money on bad movies made from bad screenplays, the solution is simple.

Write a good screenplay.
 
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I am utterly baffled why so many would engage in the raw evil of encouraging new writers.

There are four very, very good reasons why one should never encourage new writers:-

1. Encouraging new writers is the equivalent of trying to popularise taking up Russian Roulette as a sport. It is going to be an utter beating out there. 250,000 screenplays arrive each year in Tinseltown, of which just 600 are made and about 200 provide a sustainable living.

2. In an already crowed, packed field, encouraging someone talentless undermines hard working talented people, struggling to make ends meet.

3. In encouraging talentless people to take up writing, one is, de facto, encouraging them NOT to do what they are actually talented at, deriving them of a living and the world of whatever they are actually taleted at.

4. People generally work hard for their money. It is disgusting to see audiences waste their hard earned dough of watching utter crap produced from someone's bad screenplay.

and tinsletown makes absolute shite . So the writers are shite. So that should provide motivation. If your better than shite you have a chance or can make your own film. The writers are the real artists if you have to "encourage" them of that they never had a fucking chance anyway
 
Editor, you sound like a sad and better person. Bottom line, if some wants to buy uninspired drivel, it is their money, they are free to do so. You may be the greatest wordsmith since Shakespeare, but with that attitude, it is unlikely anyone will want to associate with you enough to ever find that out. If you are getting this little joy out of your creations, it is probably time to find something else to do, at least long enough for you to regain your center.
 
His storytelling skills are cliché. He cannot leave the house because
of a homicidal stalker. He lost out on a script sale because two women
exec's at a major studio wanted to have sex with him. Of course the
screenplay was “great” and the only reason it was rejected is because
he refused to have sex with two women.

If he wrote these terrible cliches into a screenplay he'd make millions
in morally bankrupt Hollywood.
 
This is baldly not true. Those of us who have to live with daily threat of homocidal stalkers cannot network. We have to live "off the net" to survive.

So you live "off the net"? You sure like to be visible here on IT for someone who's trying to keep a low profile. I'm not sure that's gonna work out for you.
 
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