producing I don't aspire to be a mogul (but ... )

The dream is dead. :cry: But long live the dream ...? :hmm:

Four years ago I joined this forum with the hope of eventually turning A Good Idea into a A Good Thing. Four years later, a lot has happened ... but not The Thing, and I'm not sure now that it can work - not least because of the insights gained as a result of hanging around these cyber corridors.

The Idea, in its simplest version, was to try to mimic the (successful) collective creativity that comes out of a music festival to which I've made reference from time to time, but centred on a cinematic adventure. The ulterior motive in this would be to develop an enthusiastic kernel of writers, actors and all the technical departments, who'd meet up for a week or a fortnight (say) four times a year to work together, intensely and intensively, on different projects - documentaries, dramas, art-for-art's-sake ... - not for early-retirement-megabucks, but with a view to attracting interest from third parties who'd commission more of the same and maybe an IMDB credit or two to be proud of. As a starting point, I've identified a few influential YouTubers who could probably be persuaded to hand over the production and direction of twenty minutes of their weekly output for mutual benefit. :secret:

I'm fortunate to have a sizeable rural property with various spaces that could be configured and re-configured to suit different needs; I have an immense collection of "stuff" that's been kept as potential set decoration and/or props; and I have a productive garden that could feed a small army (okay, a very very small army, but well-fed all the same). Unfortunately, I'm not ever likely to get as far as finishing the twenty-bed accommodation still on the To Do list ... although previous occupants lived 10-to-a-room year round, so surely that's not a problem? :D

No, the problem is this: there doesn't seem to be any realistic way to start small and build up. The camera guys want more pixels, the sound guys want less noise, the post-production guys want more terrabytes, and Nate wants more sleep. Above all, though, it seems like a few of you have tried this kind of exercise before and it's never really taken off - possibly (admittedly this is my own speculation) because too much of the creative process is a solitary activity, and too many of us - myself included - are handicapped by repeated conflicts of interest with Real Life. On scraps of paper, I have two minimal-resource "demo reels" laid out that would showcase The Idea, but even those have proved damn near impossible to turn into viewable footage for ... reasons. So if I can't manage two relatively simple productions, what hope is there to "go large" - especially if my professional and social circle doesn't actually include any "movie industry" types? :mope:

Not sure if this post is a question or a statement. Interpret at will!
 
I think the problem is that the audience is too demanding and too fractured.
There was an article the other day about how difficult it is for a streaming service to be profitable... and that is sorta what you're talking about right?

A group of professionals working together on a collective of projects, you could start a streaming service like that if you had enough professionals and enough content, but even at the large scale streaming services.. it's a real struggle.
 
I have two minimal-resource "demo reels" laid out that would showcase The Idea, but even those have proved damn near impossible to turn into viewable footage for ... reasons. So if I can't manage two relatively simple productions, what hope is there to "go large" - especially if my professional and social circle doesn't actually include any "movie industry" types?
A few thoughts, none of which is a solution to the very real issue(s) that you describe.

1. Pick ONE of those two. It doesn't matter which one.

2. Figure out the minimum amount of resources (people + stuff you don't have) that would be required.

3. Pick a date/period of time to do this - and make it as short as possible.

4. Reach out to a few people who would fit the project/fill in the gaps of what you don't have.
Ask them what it would take to get them in the project. If you'll feed and house them and give them a credit, could they get themselves to you & back home again?

4a. Figure out if 2 or more people are close enough to each other that they could travel together.

4b. Eliminate those who can't/won't be there, and replace them with other options.

5. Repeat 3 above until you have the minimum number of people that you need.

6. Do it.

Yes, I'm definitely over-simplifying. But I do think that sometimes you have to simply set a date and make things happen, even (very) imperfectly.

Good luck!
 
I think what this is missing is a business model. It's probable that it would solve your issues, but also turn it into something that isn't exactly what you wanted. The advantage native to a local music scene is a low cost of entry combined with a product that is immediately enjoyable at some level.

Let's say you took your planned setup and tweaked it a bit. Instead of "passionate people getting together to spend 2 months a year creating" make it "Filmmaking Camp for adults". Kind of a semi recreational workshop\getaway thing.

This will probably all sound terrible to you, because I think it's in a different vibe entirely from your core concept, but just to game this out -

1 - Shift your income source to one that works. This is why people throw film festivals. It's not to help you get a movie deal. It's because filmmakers paying money to film festivals for "an opportunity to become famous" is the number one actual revenue stream in our space. There's way more money being made selling parking to American Idol contestants each year than there is actual money paid to winners of American Idol.

2 - Your business model would be to run an "isolated garden retreat in the beautiful European countryside where indie filmmakers can network, collaborate, and create, free from the distractions of the outside world."

3 - This retreat would make money from packages that included lodging, food, equipment rental, guest lectures, etc.

4 - The bank or a VC will loan you money for a profitable retreat, but never for individual film projects, which of course is why indie filmmakers don't succeed, because like any business, you need starting capitol, and there is no legitimate way to get that except for a wealthy friend or family member, which is the story behind literally over 99% of indie film success stories.

5 - Book festival tours for films created during retreats and make a side business out of setting up group travel packages for inheritance teens to go on international victory laps based on their multi award winning 2 minute film about a twig they found while they were high. The parents of those teens will collectively pay you more money each year than Matt Damon and Ben Affleck got paid for writing Good Will Hunting. It's not unusual for the 1% to send an 18 year old to a 3 day island party that costs 80k-240k all inclusive. 5 grand for two weeks, four times a year, plus a 26k travel package for "the most talented filmmakers", which is anyone born with more than 7 figures in savings.

Doesn't sound like much fun right? That's because it's not filmmaking. You'd just be another faceless business hustler, targeting and analyzing your marks, trying to dupe them out of their money because you've seen behind the curtain, and you know they haven't, and you can take advantage of that.

This is why I'm not rich anymore. I just developed a distaste for how the sausage gets made. I think for you and I both, that if we loved filmmaking a lot less, and money a lot more, we'd be in a much better position to make films. I find that frustrating, like an ethics quiz where whoever gets the lowest score wins.

If you do want to sell out and make some cash someday, feel free to take my suggestions. They are far more fiscally viable than any of the madness the lot of us here pursue, but for what it's worth, I think people like you and Scoopicman, Stone Patterson, Mara, Sean, Fetus, and many others here are the real indie filmmakers, who are motivated by the art rather than financial gain.

Best of luck making it work, sounds like you have a cool idea going, and I could see it turning into something really fun with the right group of people, even if it never turned a profit.
 
This will probably all sound terrible to you, because I think it's in a different vibe entirely from your core concept,

On the contrary: you've pretty much picked up the core concept in its entirety. :eek: (Please tell me you came up with that yourself and didn't outsource it to ChatGPT ... :D )

Doesn't sound like much fun right? That's because it's not filmmaking. You'd just be another faceless business hustler, targeting and analyzing your marks, trying to dupe them out of their money because you've seen behind the curtain, and you know they haven't, and you can take advantage of that.

If we could leave the "dupe them out of their money" side of things aside, I think the hustling, targetting and analysing is fun; and I've realised that that puts me firmly in the production camp rather than the writing-directing-acting-shooting zone, and I'm fine with that. The (other) festival is inspirational primarily because it is not about duping people out of their money, but providing a self-funding space that allows the creative process to take place - the artists pay nothing and earn nothing, but get to bounce ideas off each other and the public for four days and nights; and the public gets access to some of the best traditional music and dance for less than the price of a tray of overpriced coffees.

But already that's a BIG event and way beyond what I'd want to organise, at least in the short term - I've seen behind that curtain and know it'd be too much to try to pull off.

Your business model would be to run an "isolated garden retreat in the beautiful European countryside where indie filmmakers can network, collaborate, and create, free from the distractions of the outside world."

That's precisely how the idea started, though I'm not that isolated - the outside world is unfortunately close enough to be distracting. This is where I'm stuck, though: how does one make the jump from being one random guy with such an idea to getting it seen by the kind of filmmakers (and wannabee teens) without already being a well-known hustler on the scene?

This thread was partially prompted (at last!) by a woodworking YouTuber putting one of his projects up for auction this week. It's a table. Just a table. OK, a fancy table, but still just a table. And the top bid currently stands at $11000 :shocked: Of course whoever buys it isn't just buying a table; they're buying the story that goes with it, including the making-of video, which includes buying a part of the YouTuber's personality. When the market is swamped by influencers who've already built up a following, how does a newcomer break into it - especially if their "vision" isn't actually that "visual" ?
 
On the contrary: you've pretty much picked up the core concept in its entirety. :eek: (Please tell me you came up with that yourself and didn't outsource it to ChatGPT ... :D )



If we could leave the "dupe them out of their money" side of things aside, I think the hustling, targetting and analysing is fun; and I've realised that that puts me firmly in the production camp rather than the writing-directing-acting-shooting zone, and I'm fine with that. The (other) festival is inspirational primarily because it is not about duping people out of their money, but providing a self-funding space that allows the creative process to take place - the artists pay nothing and earn nothing, but get to bounce ideas off each other and the public for four days and nights; and the public gets access to some of the best traditional music and dance for less than the price of a tray of overpriced coffees.

But already that's a BIG event and way beyond what I'd want to organise, at least in the short term - I've seen behind that curtain and know it'd be too much to try to pull off.



That's precisely how the idea started, though I'm not that isolated - the outside world is unfortunately close enough to be distracting. This is where I'm stuck, though: how does one make the jump from being one random guy with such an idea to getting it seen by the kind of filmmakers (and wannabee teens) without already being a well-known hustler on the scene?

This thread was partially prompted (at last!) by a woodworking YouTuber putting one of his projects up for auction this week. It's a table. Just a table. OK, a fancy table, but still just a table. And the top bid currently stands at $11000 :shocked: Of course whoever buys it isn't just buying a table; they're buying the story that goes with it, including the making-of video, which includes buying a part of the YouTuber's personality. When the market is swamped by influencers who've already built up a following, how does a newcomer break into it - especially if their "vision" isn't actually that "visual" ?
You will be relieved to know that I don't typically use chat gpt to write posts, lol. So I get the setup and potential.

I think this could be a cool thing. I only mention fleecing people with unrealistic expectations because that's the default business model for paid film events. I mean, how would people react if you had to pay 2300 bucks to go to mcdonals, and only one in 25,000 people that paid ever got a hamburger? Then you find out that every one of those 1 in 25k lucky winners were actually just friends and family of the people throwing the contest, and that no one from the public had ever won? Here's what I think is happening. Someone charges 2 grand a head, fleeces 3000 people with false hopes and vague promises, and then at then end there is only one person that actually has enough money to make a film, and that's the festival promoter. I think my reaction to that industry is fair, and probably in some few cases unfair. I meant no insult to you, what you're describing sounds like a fun low key community project thing.

I know people think I'm talking conspiracy theory when I say things like "then you find out all the winners were plants" so just for reference, this kind of thing does actually happen -


About the woodworking. This is not anything negative toward your idea, which sounds good, but just a connected rant.

I don't understand people's valuations of physical things. People rip off filmmakers all the time, because of this weird logic. If there is no physical item, then no actual work was done. Like you make a video for a corporation, and they decide to make a different ad, and cancel the first one, they will try not to pay you for the first ad "because they didn't use that work, so it didn't happen". Now take a high school drop out that can't even read the manual for one of the 70 tools we have to use. They start pouring a driveway, and halfway through the client says, no I want it over on the other side I guess, I changed my mind. Do you think for a moment that the customer can just not pay the bill for the first driveway? Would they be labeled as "uncooperative" if they didn't let the clients decide which revisions they felt like paying for?

Long story short, people have a weird bias towards dramatically overpaying for minor or useless physical feats such as paying someone 25 grand to carve a duck, but when it comes to digital products like film and audio, they tend to look at paying you as a "donation" that's optional.
 
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About the woodworking. This is not anything negative toward your idea, which sounds good, but just a connected rant.

Yeah, I don't see that guy's success as a negative - only that it seems to be representative of how success comes about these days. He makes tables and desks; he only makes tables and desks; and one day he had the idea of filming and publishing the making-of process with his own voice-over narration. He's one of thousands. Ditto for the hundreds of property restoration channels that fill my YT recommendations because there's one particular project I follow regularly.

What these all have in common is that (a) they started out with a pretty simple A-to-Z objective - make this table, restore this car, convert this barn, dig this hole ... - and decided to blog about it; then (b) at some point they gained enough of a following to launch a patreon/other account to generate revenue from what's essentially a fly-on-the wall/reality TV show; and (c) they're now mostly selling themselves - and everyone around them - as much as the original project. In that last regard, they're not really any different to any Hollywood celebrity.

But even though I can visualise hosting a two-week film-making event, I can't see how to get there from where I am at the moment. It's not the kind of "work in progress" that lends itself to regular blogging, especially as I'm involved in too many other things that move in fits and starts. When I think about trying to working backwards, I run up against the problem of what could I offer specifically to film-makers. A mixed bag of entry-level sound gear and some last-decade video-capable cameras are not going to attract many participants. I could try to organise some kind equipment demo lend/sponsorship deal - but why would any company bother with an unknown entity who doesn't even have a facebook page or YT channel?
 
1. Pick ONE of those two. It doesn't matter which one.

2. Figure out the minimum amount of resources (people + stuff you don't have) that would be required.

...

6. Do it.

Those two "feasible" projects were already the result of that sort of exercise, and both are (more-or-less) worked out to the point of shot lists and a crude story board. Both came about, in part, from sitting in the corner here taking notes, and seeing how the rest of you move things on.

The simplest one needs nothing that I don't already have ... except me. Or rather the motivation to block off the time needed, and not worry about falling behind on other projects. I'm kinda hoping that putting these thoughts in writing might put me under pressure to finish what I started.
 
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