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How do you know if your movie is too loud or quiet?

We are getting our short film ready to be sent to film festivals. The audio engineer who worked on it, offered to make a lot of the sound effects himself. He then gave us a stereo copy with all the sound fused together. However, I feel a lot of the sound effects were a bit cheesy or fake sounding. I decided to redo quite a few of them but had to turn the volume up just a bit louder, in order to overpower the original sound effects, or at least to the point where you are not paying attention to the originals.

Can this cause a problem volume wise, or will the audience accept it as intentional, since it happens mostly during punching and stabbing sounds in fight and chase scenes?
 
I thought about doing that before, but we have no idea how to do a stereo mix or any kind of post mix, that is acceptable for festivals, which is why we hired him. I figured it would be less work and sound better to redo the sound effects that needed re-doing, over top of the final stereo mix he already gave us, cause then you still have that mix.
 
I thought about doing that before, but we have no idea how to do a stereo mix or any kind of post mix, that is acceptable for festivals, which is why we hired him. I figured it would be less work and sound better to redo the sound effects that needed re-doing, over top of the final stereo mix he already gave us, cause then you still have that mix.

He already (theoretically) did all of that for you.
Tweak what he already did, replace the sounds and try to emulate their volume levels as closely as possible.
 
I thought about doing that before, but we have no idea how to do a stereo mix or any kind of post mix, that is acceptable for festivals, which is why we hired him.

I can understand not knowing how to do a mix, very few, if any, filmmakers/directors do. However, what I don't understand is not knowing or finding out what it is you need, not hiring someone who can give you what you need and/or not communicating what it is you need! For example, why did you hire someone to do a stereo mix? You do know that there is no such thing as a stereo (2 channel) theatrical mix?

There is no standard film festival specification (either visual or audio specs). Small local festivals tend to screen in ad hoc venues rather than in actual cinemas, in which case a stereo mix is almost certainly what will be needed (both for submission and exhibition). But what levels are required are anyone's guess because ad hoc venues for film festivals are never in my experience calibrated to any standard. If this is the case then a stereo mix to current TV specs is probably the safest choice and is what you should have commissioned. Larger, higher tier festivals screen in actual cinemas, in which case a stereo TV type mix will be required for submission and a 5.1 theatrical mix will be required for exhibition. So before you can hire someone, you need to know exactly what you are hiring them for, what you expect them to create for you AND, the questions they ask you about what you want/need will give you an idea of whether or not they are the right person for the job.

You have also learned a valuable lesson the hard way, which in all fairness is at least partly the fault of the person you hired, because if you negotiated a fixed fee (rather than an hourly/daily rate) then you absolutely must build in an approval process (as has been stated previosly): An agreed amount of additional time included in the fixed fee for you to request changes/revisions before you give final approval. It very much sounds like you have low-balled an audio post fee and hired the wrong person; either someone who had little more idea of audio post than you or someone who thought they could scam you for extra money by not stipulating additional time for revisions.

As AcousticAl and sfoster have told you, with your level of audio post abilities there is very little chance that dropping in new SFX over an existing mix will work, it would be a tricky or even impossible task for someone who really knew what they were doing. sfoster's suggestion of requesting an OMF will not help you much if you don't have any budget for someone to re-mix because the OMF format only includes the tracks, audio clips and may include the panning but will not include any of the processing (EQ, compression, reverb, etc.). You *might* have more luck getting something to work if you request the stems but again with your audio post knowledge the chances are fairly slim.

Your choices appear to be: 1. Stump up the cash for someone who knows what they are doing to do the whole thing again or a re-mix/creative edit if you can get the OMF and/or stems or 2. Trust to the slim chance that your edits will work or 3. Chalk the whole thing up to experience, move on and make damn sure you specify exactly what you need and build in an approval process next time. What I personally would avoid is going back and giving more money to the person who has left you in this situation, as the way you have described it, they have already in effect scammed you once, either deliberately or through ignorance/incompetence.

G
 
Okay thanks. I didn't hire someone on a fixed fee, he did charge an hourly rate. Perhaps it will only take a few hours to fix but he charges $100 an hour, and I will ask him how long he thinks it will take him.

I could hire a new person who might know more about what they are doing, but then they would have to redo it all over again for more hours, and therefore more money, where as he still has the movie in his programs ready to go if I ask him to.

I know it will be more money, but we already went way overbudget, and at some point there has to be a cut off where you just say no, it's done. Otherwise nothing gets done, and I was told on here before that I just need to get to the point where I call a project finished. I will see about redoing it later if I can, but now for it's done, pending what I choose to spend my money on later.
 
I didn't hire someone on a fixed fee, he did charge an hourly rate. Perhaps it will only take a few hours to fix but he charges $100 an hour, and I will ask him how long he thinks it will take him.

I can't see the logic in paying someone that much for a stereo mix! That hourly rate should be getting you a good quality seasoned professional with a commercial mix room to high end broadcast standards. BUT, an honest seasoned pro should have explained to you that to end up with a good quality mix (+ revisions) would take longer than the day or two I'm presuming you had the budget for and should also have explained the limited use of a stereo mix. So either you have been scammed/mislead by an actual pro or you have been scammed by someone who isn't a pro and is massively over-charging you. Either way, you have effectively been scammed and again, I can't imagine why you would spend that kind of money anyway for just a stereo mix?

G
 
Cause I couldn't find an audio engineer as good as him. Everyone oversold him/herself, but he had a good portfolio of past short films, so I went based on what he has done before. He also works for television where I live, and was recommended by his boss at the station, who I spoke too. He also went to one of Canada's largest audio engineering schools, and has the diploma, so I thought that was as bonus too. I suppose I could have hired out of town, but that's how I got originally scammed in the first place. At least here I was able to work with him in person, only to find out he only had a library of sound effects, which was not useful to my project, cause the sounds didn't sound right.

Well I will not use him again, but he was the only game in town, which means I will have to hire out of town if I do it again. But how do you work with someone when you are not in direct communication with them during the work schedule. That makes it very difficult. Also, he did have a proper mix room that was a theater treated room, at least that's what it looked and sounded like to me, when I was in it.

However, he said he will send me an OMF copy of everything for free, so I can use that, and give it another person in the future to work on. What is a good price to hire in the future, since others have charged more in the past? I can wait till my next projects are finished and then come back to this one later, but I think I will have to find someone who is willing to work for very low pay, since I am pretty much out of money for this one. However, the audio engineers on sites like mandy.com charge even more. One charges $1000 every five minutes of the movie so far. I will keep looking.

You people say that I should do it till I get the job done though, but when you do your projects, how much money becomes too much, when it comes to paying someone to redo things over and over, and then having to rehire other people to redo them, if it's not good enough? Do you ever reach a point where it's not worth it, and enough is enough?
 
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Cause I couldn't find an audio engineer as good as him.

It doesn't matter how good they are, they could be the best audio post editor/mixer in the world but if you only give them half or quarter of the time needed to do a decent job then you're not going to get a decent job!

At least here I was able to work with him in person, only to find out he only had a library of sound effects, which was not useful to my project, cause the sounds didn't sound right.

It is entirely possible to do a good job with library sound effects but to make them "sound right" takes time to process appropriately. The fact that he didn't demonstrates that he charged you a considerable amount of money for something he knew was going to be poor quality!

But how do you work with someone when you are not in direct communication with them during the work schedule.

You can't! Which is why it's only really been since the advent of Skype that working remotely has become practical for the entire audio post process. It's how I do the majority of my work, it's not ideal granted but it's a whole lot more ideal than the situation you're now in!

What is a good price to hire in the future, since others have charged more in the past?

Without hearing the OMF and seeing what needs to be done and what final standard you need/want to achieve, it's impossible to say. But again, there's probably no point in paying the kind of rates you've paid for a stereo mix because only lower tier festivals are likely to screen a stereo mix, in which case a commercial quality mix would almost certainly be overkill, IE. Not worth the cost!

G
 
Okay thanks. You said that I did not give him enough time to do the job. However, I told him to take as much time as was needed and I was in no rush. He said that was good. He came back a week later, told me it took him 8 hours and charged me for that, and then that was it. So I have gave him free rain as to how long it would take.
 
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About a week later, he came back to me, and said he was done.

A week is certainly doable for a seasoned pro with a 10min short, although it depends on the complexity of the short of course. A week is what, 40 hours, so you paid $4,000 for a 10min stereo mix which you're not happy with. You've definitely been scammed!!

So the time limit was really up to him and I gave him free rain as to how long it would take him.

This makes no sense at all! What if he'd taken 3 weeks, would you have paid him $12k? There are maybe a few exceptional circumstances where paying $4k or even $12k for a theatrical mix for a 10min short might be justified but not for a stereo mix. Essentially giving someone free rein to spend as much as they want is commercially suicidal and I've never come across such a thing in 20 years!

G
 
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Okay thanks. You said that I did not give him enough time to do the job. However, I told him to take as much time as was needed and I was in no rush. He said that was good. He came back later, told me it took him 8 hours and charged me for that, and then that was it. So I have gave him free rain as to how long it would take.

OK, now you've edited your post and said 8 hours instead of a week. 8 hours should have straight away rung great big alarm bells! 8 hours for a 10 minute short is going to get you nothing more than a "fix and mix", you'd probably have got a similar level of quality if you'd given an audio student $100 for a week's work!

G
 
A week is certainly doable for a seasoned pro with a 10min short, although it depends on the complexity of the short of course. A week is what, 40 hours, so you paid $4,000 for a 10min stereo mix which you're not happy with. You've definitely been scammed!!



This makes no sense at all! What if he'd taken 3 weeks, would you have paid him $12k? There are maybe a few exceptional circumstances where paying $4k or even $12k for a theatrical mix for a 10min short might be justified but not for a stereo mix. Essentially giving someone free rein to spend as much as they want is commercially suicidal and I've never come across such a thing in 20 years!

G

Sorry I should have specified. He took a week later to get back to me about it. But told me it only took him 8 hours, and the rest of the time he was working on other projects. I know it was a quick fix and he should have done more. He kept pressuring me that I had to pay, and that he would take legal action if I did not pay him for those 8 hours. I gave in, but shouldn't have and next time will not bow to pressure if the person did not do a good job. Well I will start looking for someone who is interested in doing ot for free, in order to add onto their portfolio. I cannot pay anyone right now, but will start looking out of town, or even out of country, for someone who wants to do it for free. And I will make sure to ask for a 5.1 surround mix, if that's the best.
 
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It's more and more obvious that you've been scammed! It's also obvious that you've made yourself an easy target!

And I will make sure to ask for a 5.1 surround mix, if that's the best.

Please listen to what you have been told otherwise you're going to go through the same thing all over again! There's no way you are going to get an even vaguely competent 5.1 mix for free. But even if you do manage to conjure up a miracle or some budget for a 5.1 mix, what would be the point if the festival can't play a 5.1 mix?!!!

Before you ask for anything or employ anyone (even if it's for no pay), find out what it is you need! Ask the festivals you wish to enter what specs they require for submission AND for exhibition. Only then can you employ someone to meet those specs!

G
 
I know what you mean. I need more than one mix for more than one type of festival. I get that. I just mean I might as well aim for that if I can, as well as stereo mixes.

But as of now, I am using money for other projects, so depending on what I have going on later, and what opportunities come along the way to spend money on, I will see about rehiring someone. Thanks for telling me about asking the festivals first about what specs they require. That's very interesting. Before I just looked it up, that most lower end festivals around my area prefer stereo, so that's why I asked for stereo.

This really limits your options as to how many festivals, you can enter though. Like if most of them require different specs each, and the audio engineer has to take more time to work on meeting those specs for each, you will not get to enter as many and their deadlines would be harder to meet. How do you fellow filmmakers handle that so you can enter an acceptable amount of festivals within an acceptable amount of time, since you have to take more and more time to redo the mix over and over?

What if for the next project I want to submit to festivals, I hire multiple engineers to work on different requirements for different festivals, simultaneously? Is that a good way to meet their deadlines on time, each?
 
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I need more than one mix for more than one type of festival. I get that. I just mean I might as well aim for that if I can, as well as stereo mixes.

No, you're not getting it! OK, you want a 5.1 mix, what sort of 5.1 mix? A Dolby Digital 5.1 mix suitable for a DVD or BluRay or a theatrical 5.1 mix suitable for a DCP? You need to find out exactly what you need otherwise you'll end up with something which probably sounds crap or is unusable!

It's like going to someone and saying I want you to design and build me a car; They are going to need to know what sort of car you want, an off-road racer, a family road car or a racing car. If they don't ask the question they obviously know nothing about cars and if you don't tell them, you are extremely unlikely to get the car you want/need!

G
 
What if for the next project I want to submit to festivals, I hire multiple engineers to work on different requirements for different festivals, simultaneously? Is that a good way to meet their deadlines on time, each?

No and it would cost you a fortune! The usual workflow would be to create the most difficult/expensive mix first, say the 5.1 theatrical DCP mix and then that mix can be quite quickly converted into a 5.1 Dolby Digital mix for DVD and a stereo mix. The additional mixes after the theatrical mix should only take a professional a couple of extra hours or so and possibly an hour or less. Providing of course the exact set of required deliverables is known and discussed at the outset of the audio post process.

G
 
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It depends on how much you believe in the product and how shoddy it is currently if you keep putting money into it.

Personally I spent a ton of time editing my first short. Many many months.. still didn't turn out that great. But I spent so much time playing with editing that I got a lot better and faster at it, and did my next project relatively quickly.

But time and learning is different than just throwing money at something. Only you can make that judgement call about how bad it is, what people will think about it, how much more money it would cost to fix, etc. since apparently time is not the factor here
 
Personally, I don't think it's worth it, and I can move onto bigger better things. I did a decent job with the video and the video editing, but it is just a 10 minute short, and I don't think it's going to get any big awards or anything.

But I do not mind working on it to make it better in my own time. I just cannot find out how to do the mixing. Are their any books that tell you how to do sound mixes, such as a stereo mix or 5.1 surround mix? A book that can walk you through it from beginning to end? I was researching books, but not sure how good they are inside, and if they cover all the technicalities, and road blocks.
 
Are their any books that tell you how to do sound mixes, such as a stereo mix or 5.1 surround mix? A book that can walk you through it from beginning to end?

No, there isn't and in all you've been told in this and other threads, you should have a pretty good understanding by now of at least some of the reasons why there isn't!!!! Come on, you're not seriously asking this question are you?

G
 
Sorry, you're right, I'm just frustrated. I took a tour of an audio engineering school, but it's very music based only, and does not teach what you have to learn for filmmaking. I called another and they said the same thing.

Plus I could probably get the audio mix for three feature length films for a good price, compared to what costs to go school for it. I will keep practicing in Premiere Pro.

Also for my next project, I will hire a sound designer/audio engineer, who has actually mixed at least one 5.1 surround sound mix, for a feature length movie before. She/he will have to at least made one feature, or short with a very good 5.1 before I hire. I won't settle for stereo anymore. I went with stereo before cause I was told on here that a good stereo mix will sound better than a not so good 5.1 mix, so I went with him. It does sound good just not the sound effects, and I should have created all my own and put mine in directly, rather trust his library. Lesson learned.

This site has something interesting to say about 5.1 mixing:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/surround_sound_mixing_in_vegas_and_acid

I don't have Vegas but have Premiere Pro, however, I cannot find that window where you view the surround sound, in Premiere Pro. Having such a window would really help, and I will keep looking for it!
 
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Why don't you just find the highest requirement needed for the festivals you want to apply for and get whatever mix they need for your next film?

If the mistake you made on this one was basically not giving the sound designer long enough time because your budget was running out then surely the answer isn't to throw more money you don't have at a 5.1 mix that may well not be needed for your next film? Just budget enough for a decent sound designer to do a stereo mix if thats all the festivals are asking for, just make sure you have the budget and hire someone who asks you the right questions.
 
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