How do you know if your movie is too loud or quiet?

[harmonica44]

We are getting our short film ready to be sent to film festivals. The audio engineer who worked on it, offered to make a lot of the sound effects himself. He then gave us a stereo copy with all the sound fused together. However, I feel a lot of the sound effects were a bit cheesy or fake sounding. I decided to redo quite a few of them but had to turn the volume up just a bit louder, in order to overpower the original sound effects, or at least to the point where you are not paying attention to the originals.

Can this cause a problem volume wise, or will the audience accept it as intentional, since it happens mostly during punching and stabbing sounds in fight and chase scenes?

 

[AcousticAl]

1) If you are taking it upon yourself to replace sound effects from a full audio mix, you will be replacing everything that was in that mix at the same time as each effect. Also, if you think adding in any other dialog or other sources that were active at that moment will be just fine, you aren't matching any processing that your sound editor applied. Every time you make one of those edits, you are breaking continuity of the mix.

2) "Too loud" or "too quiet" can have a couple of different meanings. Too loud by the meters? Too loud for theatrical screening? Too loud inn relativity to everything else in the mix? Same questions apply to "quiet" as well. So, assuming that the mix levels are okay, and we're talking about the sound effects' relative levels in the mix, you have to go by ear. If they sound too loud, or so loud that they sound obviously fake, there's a problem.

3) Any fixes, whether in metered levels or relative mix levels, have to go back to the original mix session, so it's up to your audio post facility to fix anything that they got wrong. Was there no proof mix that was sent before final approval? This is the kind of thing that needs to be addressed before a final mix is sent back.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. Mainly getting the sound effects person to redo the effects over and over again, was running the bill too high, and we couldn't afford to pay him anymore. So I recorded my own, and mixed them to my own specifications and put them in myself to save money. I asked the others, and they all agree that mine were better, and sound more natural, where as his sounded like stock sound from a library, that did not match our mics that we originally recorded the production sound with.

Personally it does not sound too loud for the speakers in my opinion. There is no clipping or distortion if that's what you mean. I am worried that it may be too loud compared to the rest of the movies at festivals, and they will have to adjust their volume, which could be a nuisance to them.

As far as being too loud compared to the rest of the mix, I don't think so. The stabbing and punching sounds, sound louder, but not too loud. Same way a gunshot can sound louder for effect in a lot of movies, but they do in intentionally.

 

[AcousticAl]

For the future, your sound editor should, as with any other production/post-production facility, have some sort of errors and omissions built in. There should also be some sort of proof stage where the Director is able to hear what's gong on and give final approval before the mix is sent out. If your sound editor does a piss-poor job and then wants to charge you to do it right the second time, you need to find a different sound editor.

On the other hand, if you got someone to agree to a low-ball rate that is far below what he'd normally charge, you may be getting what you paid for... in a sense. For dirt-cheap, he likely didn't have the time (reasonably for what he was getting paid) to record his own effects, so it is likely that he used a library. That's no reason for the effects to suck, because selection and editing/processing will overcome the fact that they are library effects.

Probably too late for any of that to matter at this point, so to answer what sound like your actual question:

Many (most) film festivals don't "adjust their volume" at all. The theater is calibrated and stats that way. If they do anything to altar the film as submitted, even adjusting sound levels, they become liable for anything after that point that could cost someone qualification for any of the award categories. So, either your film gets submitted with sound that is too loud for the theater and screens it that way (I have seen this happen many times), or they do have some idea of sound standards and will reject anything that doesn't conform.

While it takes a true sound mix stage to get a professional, theatrical mix, there is a target range to get you within standards that won't deafen your viewing audience. Dialog should average between -22dB and -10dB, with the former for whispers and the latter for shouts and normal dialog living somewhere in between. Everything else should be built around that, and rather than a brick wall limiter the sudden peaks can occasionally cross the -10dB mark and peak as high as -6dB. Again, the upper end of that is for sudden peaks of loud crashes and explosions.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. Well what I could do is export a copy of the movie, then import it into Audition. From there I could turn any parts of the movie down, that cross over - 6, which could be the louder effects put in, that were made to overpower the original effects.

 

[AcousticAl]

Okay thanks. Well what I could do is export a copy of the movie, then import it into Audition. From there I could turn any parts of the movie down, that cross over - 6, which could be the louder effects put in, that were made to overpower the original effects.

Wait... so you simply laid new effects on top of the old ones, so they're mixed together? And you just mixed the new ones louder to drown out the old ones?! That audio mix is going to be a cluster***k. This is why it has to go back to the sound editor to be mixed from the source tracks.

Do what you want; it's your short. Just be prepared for an audio mix that is a bit off.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

How do you know if your movie is too loud or quiet?

If the festival is screening in a cinema, you need to mix in a theatrically calibrated mix room. There is NO other way!

I decided to redo quite a few of them but had to turn the volume up just a bit louder, in order to overpower the original sound effects, or at least to the point where you are not paying attention to the originals. Can this cause a problem volume wise ...

Depends, was it mix in a theatrically calibrated mix room to start with? If so, then yes it could cause a problem, if not, then it's anyone's guess!

Presumably for budget reasons, it very much sounds like whoever did the audio-post for the short did not have a theatrically calibrated mixing environment, or even a particularly professional attitude (going only on your side of the story!). So the answer to your original question ("How do you know if your movie is too loud or quiet?") is: You can't! There simply isn't any no budget indie tricks or workarounds!!

Personally it does not sound too loud for the speakers in my opinion.

What speakers? Unless you have a calibrated theatrical sound system, whether it sounds too loud for your speakers is utterly irrelevant. It's a rather silly question and statement, as you should know by now! It's like asking what is the correct throttle pedal position and then stating that 3/4 of the way to the floor feels OK in your car. This is a silly question for two reasons: 1. 3/4 of the way down might be anything from about 50mph to over 150mph depending on your car and 2. What feels OK on the highway would be dangerously fast in a residential area but in a Formula 1 race would be comically slow. Unless you have a throttle pedal calibrated to MPH, there is no way to know where it should be in your car!

Furthermore, the correct loudness is only one part of the equation, the frequency response of a theatrical sound system is going to be wildly different from the frequency response of your system. So regardless of whether the loudness is correct (or even "in the ball park") it's still going to sound very different and therefore you've got no idea whether the edits which sound OK on your system are going to also sound OK on a theatrical system or whether they are going to sound ridiculous.

From there I could turn any parts of the movie down, that cross over - 6 ...

Which would achieve absolutely nothing, zip! Most of what AcousticAl stated is fairly good advice/information however, what he said about levels was particularly inaccurate. The average dialogue level range he suggests would be far too high even for TV broadcast specs, let alone theatrical sound!!

I think I've told you before, the Decibel (dB) scale measures energy, it does NOT measure or give even a rough indication of how loud something is. You need to get this into your head and stop trying to make up ridiculous rules!! Average theatrical dialogue levels are likely to be anywhere from below -40dB to as high as -14dB or so and average mix levels anywhere from about -70dB to about -1dB. These dB ranges are far too wide to be of any practical use when mixing and that's why they are NEVER used! And, just for the record, the output level of a whisper (as measured in dB), can actually be as high or even higher than a shout.

G

 

[AcousticAl]

Most of what AcousticAl stated is fairly good advice/information however, what he said about levels was particularly inaccurate. The average dialogue level range he suggests would be far too high even for TV broadcast specs, let alone theatrical sound!!

Perhaps in your area of the world.

For the record, I have mixed network shows (for US television) for years, and the mix has always been hot. Brick wall limiter at -10dB with a maximizer that squashes the dynamic range down to +/- 14dB. Never have I had anything kicked back by QC for level issues because the mixes are where the networks want them. They want perceived loudness. That's loosening up a little now with newer digital broadcast standards, but it's still pretty accurate.

Further, there are several indie film festival shootouts here in my hometown, and I have been appalled at the horrendous (and damaging... I think one of the screenings actually ripped a cone in the front right of the venue) audio mixes that are screened without any kind of standards in place. These are screened in a local movie theater. Many amateurs pull their library music in from a CD, find it to be mastered right up to 0dB (as CDs usually are), and simply bring everything else up to meet it. Most of them don't even watch the meters except to make sure they don't hit red. There are short films where I have literally had to sit with my hands over my ears until they were over. Most of that is on the filmmakers, but part if it is on the festival organizers for allowing the films to screen that way.

The films I have mixed for these festivals, using the rough guide I posted above, are always within comfortable listening levels. I do not claim that process to be accurate, and I did state that a proper sound mixing stage was the only way to get it right. My room is not a theatrical mix stage, and I don't pretend for it to be, nor do I claim my film festival mixes to be up to perfect spec for theatrical screening. This is merely a process to get it in the ballpark of what will screen in a theater with a mix that is clear and polished and does not risk damage to either the playback system or the listening audience.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

For the record, I have mixed network shows (for US television) for years, and the mix has always been hot. Brick wall limiter at -10dB with a maximizer that squashes the dynamic range down to +/- 14dB. Never have I had anything kicked back by QC for level issues because the mixes are where the networks want them.

I'm sorry but you are lying, which is strange because I don't get why you would lie and your posts are generally quite well informed and helpful. I can only assume that you haven't mixed anything for TV in the last few years or that you are mixing for a local TV station with little/no QC and that someone else (or some automated equipment) is being employed further down the line to correct your mixes. BTW, I know you are lying because what you are suggesting (dialogue between -22dB and -10dB) would actually be against federal law to broadcast in the USA!

Perhaps in your area of the world.

Actually you've got it the wrong way around! In my part of the world (Europe) the average broadcast levels are actually marginally higher than the legal limit in the USA but even so, the dialogue levels you suggested are too high even for European TV! This discussion is largely irrelevant though because we are not talking about TV, we are talking about theatrical, where the levels are far lower than TV!

Most of them don't even watch the meters except to make sure they don't hit red.

That is maybe the one thing they have in common with the top professional Re-recording Mixers then!!

This is merely a process to get it in the ballpark of what will screen in a theater with a mix that is clear and polished and does not risk damage to either the playback system or the listening audience.

No it is NOT! It's maybe a process which apparently gets you in the ballpark of the couple of film fests in your local theatre but it would NOT get you in the ballpark of any other cinema! From what you have said, it seems that the theatre for your local film fests realise that the local amateur filmmakers don't have a clue about theatrical sound levels and therefore turn down their cinema's sound system during the festival. The fact that it can still sound painfully loud just demonstrates how ridiculously clueless your local amateur filmmakers are. At another film fest (in a normally calibrated cinema) the dialogue levels you suggest would be way too high, not even in the "ballpark"!

G

 

[AcousticAl]

I'm sorry but you are lying, which is strange because I don't get why you would lie...

Wow. Just, wow.

First, baseless accusations like this will do absolutely nothing to further this community and the conversations held within. "Lie" indicates intent to deceive, and that could not be further from the truth.

Second, aside from the fact that I am not lying, thankyouverymuch, your assumptions about my work history are dead wrong. The shows I have worked on go out to 85+million homes, and are passed through rigorous QC. And a quick glance at the current delivery specs from one of the network companies states -20dB ref, with program audio averaging between +5 and +10 above reference and peaking at +10 above reference. But you are right, none of this has to do with Ryan's original question. Ryan, I am sorry that your thread got derailed by needless anger.

APE, I don't know what has happened to you in your life that false accusations and crude insults are at the top of your go-to tools for trying to prove you're right, but I can only hope that you find some reconciliation in that in the future so that you are able to have a reasonable conversation without derailing it into playground bullying. There's no reason for me to linger in this thread if that's the way it's going to continue.

 

[sfoster]

 

[AudioPostExpert]

And a quick glance at the current delivery specs from one of the network companies states -20dB ref, with program audio averaging between +5 and +10 above reference and peaking at +10 above reference.

The specs you are quoting are at least 3 years out of date! The ATSC A85 specs rolled out 3 years ago started being implemented by US broadcasters in Dec 2011 for a Dec 2012 deadline at which time it became a legal requirement for all TV/cable broadcasters enforced by the FCC, as defined by the CALM Act (2010). The ATSC A85 specs do not even use the dBFS scale you are quoting anymore! It's utterly inconceivable that someone professing to work in TV broadcast audio in the US (on projects broadcast to 85m+!) could be completely ignorant of the CALM Act and the ATSC A85 specs! And, for a TV network to issue audio specs which are illegal is beyond utterly inconceivable!

APE, I don't know what has happened to you in your life ...

The CALM Act and the ATSC A85 specs in the USA, the same ATSC A85 specs later becoming a legal requirement in Canada, a version of the same specs becoming a legal requirement in Australia and the EBU R128 specs which are being or have already been implemented by all the countries in the EU. This is what happened in my life to totally justify accusations that at least in this instance you don't have a clue what you are talking about!!!

G

 

[AcousticAl]

The specs you are quoting are at least 3 years out of date! It's utterly inconceivable that someone professing to work in TV broadcast audio in the US (on projects broadcast to 85m+!) could be completely ignorant of the CALM Act and the ATSC A85 specs! And, for a TV network to issue audio specs which are illegal is beyond utterly inconceivable!

I am well aware of A85 and its implementation of LKFS.

Those are the CURRENT specs in the Producer Guidelines packet for the networks. Now, the guidelines also require that the levels be measured by, and compliant with, A85, but I am citing the specs as they are being delivered to clients in 2014.

There is a reason I didn't bring this up in the first place: do you really believe that Ryan has K-weighted, A85-compliant metering?! Much less the ability to use it? I was trying to guide him in terms of the dBFS meters he has at his disposal without confusing the issue.

This is what happened in my life to totally justify accusations that at least in this instance you don't have a clue what you are talking about!

No. Nothing justifies your attitude. Disagree with me if you will, but doing so in this manner paints much more a picture of you than of me. And really, I'm sure you'll have to come in and have the last word. Be my guest. I don't have to justify myself to you.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I am citing the specs as they are being delivered to clients in 2014.

How is having average dialogue levels between -22dB and -10dB going to achieve target average loudness for the entire mix of -24LKFS as specified in the A85 specs? As this is patently impossible, why suggest these figures to H44 for a theatrical screening when cinemas are calibrated for far lower levels than TV? It just doesn't make any logical sense even by your own arguments!

There is a reason I didn't bring this up in the first place: do you really believe that Ryan has K-weighted, A85-compliant metering?!

Of course not and that's exactly the point! Why suggest levels which would be too high to comply with A85 metering when theatrical levels are much lower than A85 specs?

I was trying to guide him in terms of the dBFS meters he has at his disposal without confusing the issue.

And yet by providing incorrect figures (and using an inappropriate scale) "confusing the issue" is exactly what you have achieved!!!

G

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks people. Well I am not near that advanced yet and only adding extra effects, cause the audio person will charge more to redo it, and we are out of money. We agreed to a price before, but he will not fix the audio effects if we are not satisfied, for free, and it will cost more.

Even though I added in my own and they are louder, I can still turn them down individually. I have tried to estimate how loud they should be before it's too loud, but it's just an estimate. I will get the movie sent to festivals how it is, and just hope for the best, cause we just want to move one to another project soon coming up.

 

[sfoster]

I will ... just hope for the best, cause we just want to move one to another project soon coming up.

Fantastic attitude (sarcasm)

 

[harmonica44]

Well we worked on this one since the start of the year, how much longer should I devote to it, since it was only suppose to be a 10 minute short? I can go longer, but eventually you have to draw the line, especially when other projects are coming up. Then I would have to put this one on hold till next year's festivals. Plus we have already spent a lot of money on it, $1700 around, so I would have to save up and spend more to pay an audio engineer to redo it. So is it worth spending even more on for a 10 minute short, or should I just save up money for another project? It's just it's taking forever to get it done, and I need to start learning to getting products finished on time and under budget.

 

[sfoster]

how much longer should I devote to it, since it was only suppose to be a 10 minute short?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdPOkUUBKk

 

[harmonica44]

Okay fine I will try to save up more money and re-hire the artist to put in the effects and make them sound proper. It will have to be put on hold though, cause I am going to another country to shoot a movie soon.

 

[sfoster]

If it were me I would get an OMF from him and tweak his work myself until I was satisfied.