How about just acting out the scripts?

[Aspiring Mogul]

I've been thinking about this.

When I posted a thread about doing a couple of scenes, I didn't even know about coverage, and I was shocked to find out that a simple scene can take several hours. I have spoken to a cinematographer who has said the real planning is far more complex than what I imagined.

OK, fair enough, and I'll have to get an appropriate crew. But, before that, I want to flesh out my scripts, and, quite honestly, I am approaching the time when I want to film, come what may. I am thinking of finding someone just to get a camera and do simple shoots of the scenes, like an enhanced table read, so I can get an idea of how the scene would work. I understand Jerry Lewis did something like this, to give himself ideas on what he really wanted.

Any thoughts?

 

[Sweetie]

If there are different types of table reads, then maybe just going through the motions while reading the script may give me an idea

As mentioned before, each step in the process has different benefits and focuses, depending on who is going through the process. The table read for the actors is different than it is for say a producer and or the writer (if the writer sits in on the read).

For the actors it's an opportunity to get to know the material and their character better, get familiar and comfortable with the other actors and the director. Let them ask questions if appropriate etc.

The director can have a focus on both getting to know the actors, helping them trust him/her, answering questions or even help to fix issues with the story s/he may not be aware of.

The writer can help give a deeper understanding of the material if appropriate and/or make appropriate changes.

At the short film level, this is unlikely to all be true.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

As mentioned before, each step in the process has different benefits and focuses, depending on who is going through the process. The table read for the actors is different than it is for say a producer and or the writer (if the writer sits in on the read).

In the present case, it's to help an aspiring mogul get his feet wet, and that would include fleshing out his scripts and getting experience in filming.

 

[Sweetie]

You can either learn by doing or learn by learning.

One thing that film making has taught me. It's a combination of the two that gives the best results. Learn something, try it out. Fail. Learn from that failure. Improve. Repeat. Stories are hard to get right. Really hard. There are so many moving parts.

It's not really relevant to the current thread though.

Rehearsals and table reads are there to help a production, not to help teach a mogul.

 

[FantasySciFi]

AspiringMogul, I think you're getting the same message from all of us. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish when you say 'fleshing out the script'.

I had assumed that the script would have been mostly locked down.

As for time being valuable, this is the reason for the table read(s). It's one of the most efficient methods where multiple people can ask questions, work out characters, interactions and sometimes it's the first time big plot holes (from those who aren't as close to the script as the director, producer and writer) can be revealed.

The table read and the rehearsal precess are two, very different things. There are even different types of table reads. Where you are Mogul a table read would be great so you can hear how your words sound as they are interpreted by actors. Then you can go back and do the necessary rewrites. You don't need a rehearsal at this stage. It fine to shoot the table read if you like.

Then when you have hired a director and the cast and have set your shooting days you may want to have a rehearsal day.

If you only have an idea for scenes but no script, you really don't have a 'table read'. It's an improv session to get ideas how to write the script. In this case, you probably wouldn't need to film it since the purpose is to generate ideas. You won't be doing any actual blocking. However, you probably should do an audio recording to capture dialogues.

If you have a tentative script, you can do a table read with friends. As mentioned, it's a good way to work out plot holes, develop characters, etc. It's best to bring the director on as soon as possible. You have an entire sci-fi world with characters that need to be fleshed out. This is really more like a writer's group issue initially. You are generating background, dialogue and characters. You could do this with the actual actors though it's easier to not bring too many chefs into the kitchen.

When you have a script you're prepared to actually film (a 'final script' though it's likely to be revised), then you need your director to work with your cast and crew. This is where the 'table read' tends to blur into a 'rehearsal'. The productions with table reads have gone much smoother on set. But again, re-emphasizing Sweetie's and my point, pre-production scene changes are less chaotic than on-the-set changes. When the script is constantly changing, it forces the director and actors into uncomfortable positions. I was in that situation on set where three actors had three different versions of the script. Dialogues and actions had been changed. It delayed production.

The short films are to build my experience ... [and] form the basis for my web series, and, perhaps, one day, the basis for a series of low-budget movies. And then, we'll see. That's my life's goal.

If there are different types of table reads, then maybe just going through the motions while reading the script may give me an idea, because, remember, I have not shot a frame of film in my life.

At least at this juncture if you're unsure about the scenes, a table read with friends will help generate some ideas. Once the script is more solid, the reading with the actors will give you a better feel of what the film will be like. Starting into a project without a script in hand is risky. It doesn't have to be treated as if written in stone, but it needs to be solid enough that it can be used for budget, scheduling and story. That's production mogul 101.

It's an interesting discussion but a bit tangential for screenwriting. You may get additional feedback in the Pre-Production forum. As I understood your question, "Can I use a 'table read' to write the script for scenes?" That's essentially a chicken-or-egg question. Technically you 'table read' a finalized script but you can brainstorm or improv scenes ("acting out scripts") that can be translated into a scripted format.

As Sweetie suggests, try it. See what works. Fleshing out the script via improv can be novel. Though frankly, I think it would work better to bring on a collaborator or writer/director to develop the story in a more directed rather than haphazard fashion. It would save time. Trying to schedule a table read with multiple people can be vexing given schedule conflicts. Whereas working with one person is far simpler. Remember, time is precious, theirs and yours! Good luck.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

FSF and Sweetie,

The scripts are done, at least for short scenes and/or short films. The standard for a web episode, as I understand it, is from 3-10 minutes, though one internet distributor apparently wanted 15 minutes. In any case, I can several 5 minutes shorts in my sci-fi franchise, and, quite honestly, a time is coming when I want to film, come what may.

I guess the acting out/improvs/quasi-rehearsals are really to see if my scenes work, and to develop my skills as a producer. Of course, I may also want to get a professional screen writer on board, to polish my work.

 

[Sweetie]

If you only have an idea for scenes but no script, you really don't have a 'table read'.

100% agree. I made my comments with the assumption that the script was not only drafted, but developed.

It's an improv session to get ideas how to write the script.

Improv is rehearsal (NOT table read) can be a good exercise to create a trusting environment where the actors feel safe and comfortable to fail. I cannot see where Improv in the table read is a good idea.

Most actors (not all) don't make strong writers. First drafts are rarely great. Re-writing is where it's at. To me, improv for writing seems to be the worst of both worlds.

I sense we're on the same page here.

If you have a tentative script, you can do a table read with friends.

I'd suspect a brainstorming session would be better, though probably what you were meaning.

pre-production scene changes are less chaotic than on-the-set changes

Very important.

When the script is constantly changing, it forces the director and actors into uncomfortable positions.

Oh man, I have a story for you. There was some sort of test shoot, trial, audition... I really don't know what you'd call it. I've never seen it before or since... Took friggin ages. Anyway, cutting a long story short, the two lead actresses were told, quite out of the blue "Ok, now you two kiss each other". The director found himself without a cast and crew virtually immediately. Improv for the win

That's production mogul 101.

I think there is room to move on this subject, though it doesn't always turn into the best product. There is value in flexibility. I do prefer your method.

 

[Sweetie]

I guess the acting out/improvs/quasi-rehearsals are really to see if my scenes work, and to develop my skills as a producer.

I'm going to suggest something. Take it or leave it. I think you really need to go out there and shoot something. For now, it doesn't really matter what. Get out there and shoot something. Go through the process of shooting, editing and so on. It doesn't have to be good. Hell. Expect it to stink, but strive for it to be good.

I think you need to get some experience under you belt.

If I remember right, rik offered to come to you and shoot a small thing with you. You'd be well advised to take him up on it. Learn to do and grow. You're never going to know where you need to improve if you don't know where you're currently at.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

I'm going to suggest something. Take it or leave it. I think you really need to go out there and shoot something. For now, it doesn't really matter what. Get out there and shoot something. Go through the process of shooting, editing and so on. It doesn't have to be good. Hell. Expect it to stink, but strive for it to be good.

I think you need to get some experience under you belt.

I think you're right.

 

[FantasySciFi]

Sweetie, I believe we are in full agreement. Just to clarify, I think you misunderstood my point when you wrote "Improv is rehearsal (NOT table read) can be a good exercise to create a trusting environment where the actors feel safe and comfortable to fail."

What I was saying is without a script, it's purely improv. If you have no script but only an idea sketch of the scene and characters, it isn't a table read. I think it's rather risky asking actors to take the idea and create an improv based on the elements and then record that to make the script. You can't rehearse what hasn't been created in the first place. So in that sense, improv is not a rehearsal/bonding tool but a script creation tool, which I feel is a very bad idea. That was my point. It shouldn't be "make it up as you go and record it" which is what I interpreted him to mean from his original post to use actors to "flesh out the script" from just an idea.

If a producer says, "This takes place in a bar. Okay, you're going to be mad that she cheated on you. And she's going to be mad because you cheated on her. You don't know it's with your brother's wife. I want to tape this scene a couple ways then decide which I like and write it down. Go at it." That's not a table read nor a rehearsal. It's pure improv or by a stretch, a scene study. Even more problematic, who is technically the author of such a script? The actors? The transcriber? If you aren't paying the actors, it's not a work-for-hire. It becomes a copyright nightmare.

I recognize that 'improv' is one of those words with different degrees of meaning depending on context. I meant it in the sense of creating new, unscripted responses within a defined scene and role without direction (since there's no director on board). Most directors use it more as 'put your own spin on the material as you think your character would react'. There, it is a more constrained freedom to explore how the dialogue is delivered and actions are expressed but still within context of a defined script. And often with guidance. I think we both agree on the need for an approach that allows for some flexibility.

@AspiringMogul
If you have the scripts, just go for it. My suggestion, if you have 2-3 episodes, would be to do a read through of all of them in one go. That will better help you catch plot and continuity issues and give a better sense of the characters. It is surprising how many times an actor catches something like "but I thought my character was just ..." between episodes. Sometimes as a writer, director and producer, you get to close to a script and need that outside eye. Especially if episodes are developed individually over time.

In your case, since you have some scripts, select and meet with the actors to run the lines ('table read') for issues. If there are, do a rewrite and send it out. For a 5-10 minute short, you don't need lots of elaborate back and forth. You should be good to shoot the first episode. What you learn from that can then be funneled back into your next few episodes.

Filming a series entails thinking a little differently than thinking for a narrative in terms of production planning. It sometimes means filming multiple elements from different episodes at the same time. If you think of each episode as standalone, it can sometimes work against your production value if you don't have a controlled studio environment.

My only other suggestion is to plan your shoots to take advantage of spaces that overlap in time in your scripts. So if something happens in episode one on the patio and we pick that up in episode two at the same time (a plot continuation), shoot those two scenes on the same day, even if different episodes. It's nearly impossible to duplicate lighting and other conditions to re-create that sense of continuity on a no/lo budget. Especially for outdoor shots. This is where working through the first three episodes and planning your shoots with an experienced director/dp will save you headaches and make the edited episodes feel more believable. And if you have the good fortune to work with Directorik, that is a great learning opportunity.

 

[Sweetie]

What I was saying is without a script, it's purely improv.

I'd like to add, in my opinion, a table read without a script is a waste of time. But yes, essentially I agree.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

I have three episodes, and I also have outlines and random scenes for several more. The thing is, I don't just want to write; I want to film. So maybe a table read with some rehearsal would be a good idea.

Should I get a DP and a producer to watch and perhaps offer constructive criticism?

 

[Sweetie]

Look, I know why you're very protective, to the level of perfectionism for this sci-fi show. You've been chasing this holy grail for as long as I've been on this site.

You need to write something else and go out and shoot that. Something you're not going to be as perfectionist on. You need some material where you're going to learn.

I assume you're not loaded. From what I understand, you're a lawyer, but you're not going to have the spare cash day in and day out to hire cast and crews indefinitely. Get in there and learn the craft. Get down in the thick of it. It'll make you a stronger producer in the end. It'll help lift the veil of theory and start making it real. At that point of time, you'll become a film maker instead of a wannabe.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Get in there and learn the craft. Get down in the thick of it. It'll make you a stronger producer in the end. It'll help lift the veil of theory and start making it real. At that point of time, you'll become a film maker instead of a wannabe.

Good point. And how do you suggest I "get in there and learn the craft"?

 

[directorik]

Good point. And how do you suggest I "get in there and learn the craft"?

You stop planning and you do it.

Unlike most beginners who need to practice and practice and practice,
you want to be a mogul – a producer. Hire a director. Hire a DP. Allow
them to put together a small crew. Rent a space and some equipment.
And then shoot the two scenes you want to shoot.

Gene Rodenberry didn't direct. He was never a DP. We was a writer and
a producer. You don't need to make a dozen short films as a director
because you are not trying to be a director. You aspire to be a mogul. So
hire the right people.

I've offered. Several times. My offer still stands. I know you no longer
want to work with me but the advice is still good advice. You have a DP.
Now hire a director. Perhaps you could find a producer who would be
willing to do what I was offering – sit with you and walk you through the
steps. From budgeting to casting to hiring to shooting through post.

Set a budget. Stick to that budget. Make that first short film. Even if it's
just the dinner scene. Do it. That's how you get in there and learn.

For now forget the table read. For now put aside the bridge set and the
costumes. After you have actually worked with actors, a director, a DP
and crew you will have a stronger understanding of what it takes.

 

[Sweetie]

Here's a video that someone got me to watch today. It may help you. While I don't agree with some of what he says, a lot of the things that he says makes sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZeWOAliA6Y

how do you suggest I "get in there and learn the craft"?

You stop planning and you do it.

^^^ This

The thing about film making... there are many paths to entry, each depends on where you want to be, where you are and who you are.

One thing I'm going to say. There are so many people out there making films that have much less of a clue than you, who are as dumb as two rocks and have way less resources than you. You can do it once you choose to take the first step.

Make that first short film.

I'd suggest a slight alteration. Change that from a short film to a single scene. Write a 2 page scene, that is in one location, don't worry about acts, don't worry about an introduction, ending etc, just do a single scene. Shoot with a camera phone if you have to. Go to the local hardware and buy those crappy lights (or hell, just use the house lights) and shoot something. Don't have actors? Who cares? Grab some colleagues from work, go into the lunch room and shoot a scene you love from a movie.

The advantage of shooting a scene over an entire short is your learning curve is sped up. While it won't help you learn the craft of writing, it'll help you learn the film making craft.

From that shoot, work out what you can improve and improve one or two aspects. Shoot again... repeat until you're at the point where you're happy with the result where you're ready to shoot your sci-fi production.

Without the experience, I suspect you're having what's called analysis paralysis. You've got all this information and you just simply don't know which conflicting opinion is correct. I hate to be the one to say, most opinions are correct. It sucks I know. You need to work out which works best for you. You might even be at the point where you realize you need to know a lot more but you simply don't know what you don't know, let alone being able to work out what you need to know.

What I suggest above is going to be your cheapest way to learn and get into the process. What I fear may happen if you try the producer only angle is you may end up partnering with the wrong people who are more than happy to take your money, line their own pockets with a paying gig without a care in the world to whether you end up with a quality marketable product in the end. You may burn through all your resources and you may not be in a position to determine whether they're doing a great job or taking you for a ride. It's scary. It happened to a local producer here. He dropped a decent spread of his own cash. I don't remember the number but if memory serves me right, it was about 500k. They got a B name and all and he ended getting stiffed in the end.

If you want to learn low-range producing, I can point you in the way of a course/resource where you'll probably learn better than anywhere else (except by being taught hands-on by a real producer). It'll give you an idea of one possible path to becoming a successful producer. One problem you're going to encounter unless you're willing to drop $250k (or more) of your own personal money is: Chicken or the egg. You'll work our what I mean as time passes but you need to take that first step.

I offered h44 a while back when he was having problems getting experience. He said he had about $20k to $30k to drop on a film. I offered him to come here and I'd put together my crew, find a cast and shoot a no budget film within that budget and he could come here and learn anything he wanted. I even have a script that fits that bill (though the option will expire later this year). It wouldn't be a great film by any standard, but it's be a B feature film and it'd get completed and it'd be a good learning curve. Perhaps you need to find something like that.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

I've found some gems.

These are auditions of Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher as they tried out for their roles in Episode IV, and they are of course almost acting out their characters, with their facial expressions and mannerisms. And this is what I've been thinking of doing, for my first set of films. My plan for now is to film the reads in this manner, then go back and do the rewrites, because this will allow me to flesh out my scripts and, of course, get filming experience. I've read this thread - and many others - again and again, and I've taken the responses to heart, but, unless there's any serious objection, I 'll take this approach for now.

Any thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSjP2GBTr9U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCXrGuLix7M


Kurt Russell, by the way, would have made a good Han Solo, but I would still prefer Harrison Ford.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nix_PID3oiA

 

[FantasySciFi]

I've found ... auditions of Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher as they tried out for their roles in Episode IV ... My plan for now is to film the reads in this manner, then go back and do the rewrites, because this will allow me to flesh out my scripts and, of course, get filming experience. I've read this thread - and many others - again and again, and I've taken the responses to heart, but, unless there's any serious objection, I 'll take this approach for now.

Any thoughts?

There are no serious objections but I want to point out these are auditions, which can be very different beasts from table reads. Auditions are to find the appropriate actors, while table reads use the selected actors to develop the scene dynamics. There is nothing wrong with your approach but you want to be sure that the actors you use are the ones who embody your preliminary vision of the characters. Each actor will put a different spin on a character. But filming them is still excellent experience. I'm just not confident that what you come up with will necessarily match the final product if you change actors. It may still require tweaking in my experience. However, the approach should work if you keep that caveat in mind.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

There are no serious objections

Then let's go for it.

... but I want to point out these are auditions, which can be very different beasts from table reads. Auditions are to find the appropriate actors, while table reads use the selected actors to develop the scene dynamics.

Understood, with thanks.

There is nothing wrong with your approach but you want to be sure that the actors you use are the ones who embody your preliminary vision of the characters. Each actor will put a different spin on a character. But filming them is still excellent experience. I'm just not confident that what you come up with will necessarily match the final product if you change actors. It may still require tweaking in my experience. However, the approach should work if you keep that caveat in mind.

Agreed, and I see my characters - and plots and even series bible - changing as I write and do research. I think that group dynamics will change my series further.


My plan, then, is to do the table reads, perhaps act them out, to get an idea, then go back and do the re-writes. Then, after enough re-writes, do short scenes and/or short films. Bit by bit, I'm getting there.

Anyone wants to help?

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Hope you're enjoying your holdiays, everyone.

I just came back from the American Film Market, and I met a line producer who has worked on various projects. I asked him about table reads and rehearsals, and he said that I may be thinking of improvisations. He said that these are more than table reads but are done before the scripts are ready, because the writer and director often want to see how this works out, and the process of many people can add some dynamism to it. He says Martin Scorsese does this, and it can be effective, depending on the individual director or writer.

He then suggested we do an improv, and we went through an eating scene. It was fun, for what that's worth. As he tells me, an improv is without props, without costumes, just actors going through the motions on an empty stage, perhaps with chairs and tables.

I've re-read the posts in this thread, and I'm getting the idea that the process has to fit my style. I am doing treatments, and I will be handing them to a professional screenwriter, so this seems like a good way to get the characters and the scenes right before the actual scripting phase.

Any thoughts? Rik?

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

I have been in communication again with the line producer, and he said that using improv actors was a powerful way to help a writer, and he suggested the following sequence:

1. Write
2. Table read
3. Do the improv
4. Go back to step 1 and repeat as necessary.

As I mentioned, we did an improv on the spot, and I found it to be very powerful.

I did some further digging on the internet, and I got this link, which is a series on using improv, and a further link, though this second one seems more geared towards theatre and writers groups.

I think I have my answer, after a long, long time of asking around, so thanks to everyone for their patience. Any thoughts? Rik? Mara?