series George Lucas says ESB is the worst film in the series.

Did he mean the worst film in the OT? Than I'd be inclined to agree with him.

It doesn't have an ending, some of the Dagobah scenes really drag on etc.
 
Sonnyboo, I just borrowed JW Rinzler's "The Making of the Empire Strikes Back", and I've skimmed the chapters. Where does it cover in detail Kurtz' departure? Perhaps you can point it out to me, thanks. :)

Uh, read it and it's towards the end. I'm a little bit busy to find a quote for you when you have the book - you know - in your hands.

;)

Where did you get this script? I'd like to get a copy, thanks. :)

Most of the drafts, rough drafts, and even handwritten notes can be found here:
http://starwarz.com/starkiller/


516Y7QE321L.jpg

Laurent Bouzereau's ANNOTATED SCREENPLAYS refers to these drafts with extensive notes, and basiccally verifies all of the drafts on that site.
 
I don't have many quips about the two trilogies besides 'Phantom,' which I loathe with a severe passion. It's my understanding that many people do, though, so I'm not alone there. I actually have no issue with 'Attack of the Clones' or 'Revenge of the Sith' - I really enjoy both. But, it's also to my understanding that there seems to be as much critical distaste for those two as there is for 'Phantom.'

I'm not ashamed to admit I agree with you there. I love ATTACK OF THE CLONES and REVENGE OF THE SITH. I watched both recently on Blu Ray and they were NOT nearly as bad as I remember. PHANTOM MENACE is bad, but still watchable. That final fight with Darth Maul is worth the whole thing every time.

To me the flaw in PHANTOM MENACE is that George Lucas indulged some bad ideas, as read in the MAKING OF books and the extensive DVD documentaries, George decided to make Anakin 9 year old because George thought no teenage boy would have missed his mother enough.... so that made Obi Wan younger and the invention of Qui Gon Jinn, who had only existed in a previous draft as going BACK to Naboo as a thin excuse for the 2 on 1 Jedi-Sith fight. Then in the casting of the 9 year old kid, George clearly chooses the wrong actor (sorry Jake Lloyd). He felt the more spontaneous, less accurate reads were more interesting - as opposed to the other kid who not only looked more like Mark Hamill, but did a much better reading. Ugh! George didn't have oversight and without studio 'interference', made bad choices.


I was recently told by several people I respect to start watching the Cartoon Network CLONE WARS series. This combined with the official site posting a chronological order (http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-clone-wars-chronological-episodeorder), I went ahead and started watching (in that order). It's still aimed more at little kids, but not as much as I thought it would be. The feature film sucked, even with the real voices of Samuel L Jackson and Christopher Lee, but the show itself is interesting at times, and worth watching. I'm only on the 3rd season and my understanding is that it gets really really good in the 4th and 5th season.

Anyone a fan of CLONE WARS TV series?
 
Sonnyboo, I just borrowed JW Rinzler's "The Making of the Empire Strikes Back", and I've skimmed the chapters. Where does it cover in detail Kurtz' departure? Perhaps you can point it out to me, thanks. :)
I'm in Vegas now. When I get home I'll pull out my copy and give you
the exact page. Sometime late Monday, okay?
 
Good morning, Sonnyboo and Rik,

The reference is page 350, but it just mentions the conflict. I am more interested in the original version, as in how much better it was - I'm asking because I want to see if I can learn something from it.

There's no hurry, because I'm in it for the long run.
 
I love the Clone Wars cartoon series! Not as much as the Genndy Tartakosky Clone Wars mini-series that aired around the time of the movies, but as you said, it's surprisingly well done. And I agree that the movie version was sort of mediocre at best.

That said we will disagree on Attack of the Clones, which I always find the worst movie in the series. Though even that is not without merits...the duel at the end is fantastic. Well, until Yoda shows up (which I appreciate thematically, if not visually). But the whole love story was cringeworthy at best, Lucas really does pull the worst out of his actors.

When I watch Star Wars (last time was a few weeks ago), I do still watch all of them, so as much as I complain, I guess I can't hate them that much.
 
That said we will disagree on Attack of the Clones, which I always find the worst movie in the series. Though even that is not without merits...the duel at the end is fantastic. Well, until Yoda shows up (which I appreciate thematically, if not visually). But the whole love story was cringeworthy at best, Lucas really does pull the worst out of his actors.


The entire mystery of Obi Wan trying to find out about the assassin, and everything with that was exceptionally well done for me. The politcal intrigue and creation of the clones, all of that was worthy of the best of STAR WARS for me. The love story was not 100%, but also did have some nice moments. I can never truly hate ATTACK OF THE CLONES, even at some cringe-worthy moments. Visually, it was amazing. The colors and pallette were as rich as any movie ever made. And it was the first feature film shot with 24P digit cinema cameras.

Yes, we will have to disagree. It was way better than PHANTOM MENACE and RETURN OF THE JEDI.
 
I hated the first two prequels - the last one was OK, but, after seeing the first two, Ep 3 just didn't do anything for me.

As for the love story, I think it was sappy.
 
Anyone a fan of CLONE WARS TV series?

Yeah! I really enjoyed watching them when they came out, but dipped out after about a season. My understanding is that they're now under Netflix's wing - and I know the whole show is available there. I think I'm going to try to get back into it! I'm really not a fan of animation, cartoons, or things directed towards children - but I do love a good Star Wars story!
 
It's not about genre, it's that tanks from the 1940s on seem far more suited to battle than what should be much more advanced technology

I still don't think I agree with the comparison, if you are purely comparing them based on how well they suit their purpose. In 'Empire,' those AT-AT walkers were mowing down all of their ground forces, their shield generators, and their entire base. They're essentially invincible, giant walking tanks, their only weakness lying in their lanky legs. An excerpt from Wookieepedia:

"The AT-AT's formidable offensive capabilities were supplied by dual, chin-mounted Taim & Bak MS-1 fire-linked heavy laser cannons for slower, more cumbersome targets and two fire-linked medium repeating blasters mounted on each side of the head designed for lighter, agile targets.[1][3] The two sets of weapons could be independently rotated in order to engage multiple targets at once.[3] However, the AT-AT head, which could move between a range of left, center, and right firing arcs, could only rotate one fire arc per heavy laser volley.[2] The walker's strong external 9095-T8511 grade durasteel armor was virtually impervious to all but the heaviest of artillery weapons."

Plus, the Empire could basically drop them anywhere they wanted in a moments notice, and because they were tall and thin, they could traverse more terrain.

Here comes my inner history buff now:

I think it's very difficult to say that a tank in WWII would be more suited for its operation than an AT AT in Star Wars, at least, not to the point that you are arguing. One important thing to keep in mind is that technology in WWII surpassed the technology of the previous war, especially in regard to heavy artillery and anti-tank defenses. (Explosive anti-tank ammo, the Panzerfaust, Jagdbombers, etc.) This presented a dilemma in certain circumstances. (Off the top of my head, when Hitler decided to joyride southward, he ran into the Maginot Line, which had an incredibly complex anti-tank setup spanning the French/German border. These kinds of setups became common in many of the warring countries because each country was beginning to develop tanks at an ever increasing rate. (Though Germany's Blitzkrieg tanks were superior in many ways, surpassing British engineering that once dominated WWI.)

Now, that's a catch twenty two when arguing the validity of tanks in the war, because even though there were advancements to defend against them, they were also much more powerful. The French failed in the sense that they didn't expect the Ardennes to be penetrable by tank. (Huge forests near the Belgium-facing side of France) But... they were penetrated by tanks and the Germans took a joyride through neutral territory in Belgium to essentially circumvent the entire wall and its defenses.

Now, as you can see via the quote from Wookieepedia - there weren't any anti-AT-AT developments, or at least, developments in artillary the rebels had at their disposal - I doubt the rebels were even familiar with them before Hoth. If Luke hadn't decided to start going for their legs, the rebel base would have been lost much quicker. (Though it is important to remember that in this battle, the Empire DID win, and they DID destroy the base, using AT-AT's - so clearly they were effective.)

So, I wouldn't compare them to the tanks of WWII and say that they're inferior in design. They had one weakness that was still difficult to exploit, and certainly not quick enough to exploit where the rebels could destroy enough of the AT-AT's to not let them destroy the generators. (Well, two weaknesses if you count a bunch of Carebears ramming their sides in with giant logs...) The tanks of WWII had plenty of weaknesses - weaknesses that each party exploited upon one another during the war. That said, I'd say they were equally maneuverable, though, which is why I mentioned the Ardennes - because the Ardennes wouldn't be much different than the forest on Endor.

So, to conclude my random history post - The AT-AT's were suited for their purpose equally, if not more so, than a tank in WWII. To conclude that the tanks of WWII were far more apt at their duties, I think, would be incorrect.

Woohoo! History and Star Wars! That's the most fun I've had as a nerd in a long time :)
 
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I know this has been discussed a million times, but how do you guys feel the prequel trilogy stacks up in comparison to the original trilogy? I'm one of the few living souls that didn't grow up on these films and I just saw the original trilogy like a month ago and loved it. Many fans seem to hate the prequel trilogy so I considered just not watching them, but if they add to the story and the film's universe in a good way then I'd like to watch them.
 
I know this has been discussed a million times, but how do you guys feel the prequel trilogy stacks up in comparison to the original trilogy? I'm one of the few living souls that didn't grow up on these films and I just saw the original trilogy like a month ago and loved it. Many fans seem to hate the prequel trilogy so I considered just not watching them, but if they add to the story and the film's universe in a good way then I'd like to watch them.



For all the hate that centers around them, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, I think 'Attack' and 'Revenge' are both very good films - I enjoyed both of them. 'Phantom' is nearly universally recognized as a train wreck. It's not even that it's a really bad film, it just let down twenty years of hype.

I'd think they add enough to the story to be worth watching, especially 'Revenge' - 'Revenge' dealt with the fall of Anakin very well, especially in regard to his relationships with people like Obi Wan. (Which really is a heartbreaking fall out, Ewan McGregor really does earn top marks for his Obi Wan.)

Watch them, form your own opinions. As this thread so blatantly portrays, we all have our own hates and loves for the films, it's impossible to give you an answer until you yourself see them.
 
Watch the prequels. I doubt you'll love them, but they're fun. Even if there are tons of things that you complain about (testing positive for Jedi), if you like the universe, you'll enjoy them.

But be prepared for really wooden performances from actors that should know better. And some pretty top notch CGI. And some Boba Fett fan-fiction. And some more diverse settings. And revisiting a lot of the SAME settings (the Star Wars single-environment planets has always been a point of contention with me).

Moral of the story: Star Wars fans are used to crap (reference: the holiday special) and we're willing to forgive an awful lot. But they're all fun to watch and as someone who didn't grow up on it, you'll probably like the prequels more than those of us that did. But you might not like the Ewok movies as much as I do, so I guess it evens out ;)
 
Oh - and another thing worth noting as long as we are talking about whether or not to watch the films.

The Machete Order is a great thing to take a look at it. It reorders the viewing order to make it a really unique experience that ends up making even more sense than front to back or back to front. Plus, it skips Phantom.

See below:

The article is very much worth your time to read, it's very interesting...

http://www.nomachetejuggling.com/2011/11/11/the-star-wars-saga-suggested-viewing-order/
 
I dig the Machete Order as a concept. But I think an edit of the prequels would serve it better (I haven't watched the Phantom Edit, but that's another thing out there). As mentioned on the site:

Episode I has some redeemable moments, such as the tension in the final duel after Qui-Gon is killed, and for some reason people seem to really enjoy the pod race (I hated it). Arguably, Episode II is worse than I.

I would argue that. And that pulling the good stuff out of 2, and eliminating the crap from 1 and 3 would make for a pretty awesome viewing.
 
In all 3 prequels, some of the action scenes just seem to go on for ever rather pointlessly.

THE PODRACE

CHASING THE ASSASSIN THROUGH CORUSCANT

DROID FACTORY

ENTIRE OPENING SEQUENCE of EPISODE III
 
I actually quite enjoyed Revenge of the Sith after about the halfway mark

I would agree - I'm sorry, but if you don't think the end fight between Obi Wan and Anakin isn't cinematic gold, I don't have much to say to you. God, that fight was executed so magnificently. The conflict between the two of them is perhaps the most emotional, dramatic part of all of Star Wars for me - I actually get emotional for the characters in that scene. I think those last moments are incredibly, incredibly powerful.

"You were the chosen one; it was said you'd destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness! You were my brother, Anakin, I loved you"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_YozYt8l-g


Now, the fight between Yoda and Sidious always felt forced and cheesy to me - I think its only true purpose was to put pauses in between the drama of the opposite fight, rather than going it all in one go.
 
I think that A New Hope is the best one, and I keep bouncing back and forth between ESB and ROTJ, as to which one is second and which one is third best. They both have their reasons, but are both pretty good. The reason why I put A New Hope above ESB is because ESB does meander in the middle section with plot elements that didn't do anything such as C3PO being blown apart and having to be put back together. Or Lando keeps going after Leah, even though we know Han will get her in the end anyway, so what's the point, since it didn't do anything plot wise...

But ROTJ does have some of it's weaknesses too, like perhaps too much action, the furry creatures weren't really given as much depth, and the twist where Luke finds out that Leah is his sister, was unnecessary and random.

Those are not major flaws in anyway and ESB and ROTJ are pretty good, just not perfect or near perfect like the first one was.

I saw Revenge of the Sith and like that one too, perhaps just as much as ROTJ in some ways. It's been too long since I saw The Phantom Menace and remember it being okay, but nothing more. Haven't seen Attack fo the Clones, but should.

So the first one wins for me. One thing that is the best about ESB, is that I thought it had the best sets and cinematography of the series, and the art direction wins on that one.
 
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