Film Criticism on IndieTalk

[indietalk]

I have noticed a lot of tough criticism of films on the forum lately, not really reviews, more like "if you did this instead...", and I was wondering where you draw the line between criticizing and accepting something as that director's artistic choice. To me film is art. If I watch a film with a lot of wide shots, that director had a reason for doing that. I'm not going to tell him he should have had more close-ups. I may say I did not like all the wide shots, but I won't try to tell him what he should have done instead (unless he is asking). But that's just me. I see a lot of "film instructor" type reviews lately. Some filmmakers are not looking for tips, they are posting a finished product. They must cringe when they read what others think they should change, instead of reviewing the film as a finished product. What is your take?

 

[John@Bophe]

Indie, I expect that most people who post movies here realize what they're getting themselves into. After all, asking a bunch of filmmakers to critique a film YOU made -- its almost unavoidable that the reviewer will want to put their own spin on it...and tell you how HE/SHE would have done it differently. Fortunately, our members tend not to be mean-spirited in their reviews. Their suggestions, however you read them, are usually meant to be helpful.

I agree with you though that perhaps we should remember the differences in artistic choices when offering comments, and not consider someone's efforts 'wrong' just because they don't match your own ideal of 'right.' We'd miss out on a lot of interesting cinema if everyone were encouraged to follow a standard template for moviemaking.

 

[cibao]

I agree 100%. When a painter paints a portrait, do you go up to them and say, "Geez, nice picture Buddy, but I think you used too much blue." You might say that it's not your cup of tea, or you might even say, "I like the red.", but you allow the artist the latitude to paint it their way.

Of course filmmaking is different than that, but really not by much. I know some people may be better than others at filmmaking, and some criticism is great and very helpful. But it's a thin line between positive criticism and negative criticism. I prefer to be overly positive on someones finished product, rather than tell them what I consider to be mistakes, with a few generalized you might consider, or did you think of doing?

But that's just me.

Chris

P.S. Except when it relates to that Pink Guy...the more criticism the better!!

 

[Loud Orange Cat]

I agree.

Film is art. However, art is subjective (Picasso or Maplethorpe, anyone?).

I've noticed that a lot of IndieTalk users who don't like a specific film is because they say "I would have done this" or "They should have done that." Stop over-analyzing!

Filmmakers make the best and worst reviewers.

Personally, I take everything at face value. The filmmaker created their art this specific way for a reason.

However, Uwe Boll has screwed over film so bad in the past... Oops, I should stop now while I'm ahead.

 

[indietalk]

I don't mind a tough review, it's the film instructor type reviews that bug me. Unless you're Lucas, you're not going back to redo it

I also undertand that when you post your film on a forum you have to be ready for anything!

 

[spinner]

I have noticed a lot of tough criticism of films on the forum lately, not really reviews, more like "if you did this instead...", and I was wondering where you draw the line between criticizing and accepting something as that director's artistic choice. To me film is art. If I watch a film with a lot of wide shots, that director had a reason for doing that. I'm not going to tell him he should have had more close-ups. I may say I did not like all the wide shots, but I won't try to tell him what he should have done instead (unless he is asking).

I agree with you here....

I think that it isn't really on me to be telling the artist what his vision should be. Maybe he likes wideshots. The most I should really do is tell you whether or not it worked for me...and maybe I didn't care for the wideshots or whatever....

...one of the things I will try to start doing again is reading the scripts that are sometimes here for critiques and the main thing I do is tell the writer if it works for me. There are plenty of writers here who know and can talk story structure and all that. What do I know about story structure outside what I write for myself?

If someone has a quirky, experimentally weird film/script, the only thing I can do or will try to do is tell the filmmaker/writer if it worked for me, if I understood it, if it made sense, or if I could at least understand why it didn't make sense. I defy anyone to come out of "Pi" without being at least a little disoriented. Can you imagine reading the script for that?

Ultimately, the person who goes into a theater to see the film is not going to comment on structure or film technique. Your average person just wants to enjoy the movie. If it doesn't work for them, it doesn't work...I think this is the double-edged sword of being an artist: you can do whatever you want, but people don't necessarily have to like it....

-- spinner

 

[Loud Orange Cat]

I don't mind a tough review, it's the film instructor type reviews that bug me. Unless you're Lucas, you're not going back to redo it

I also understand that when you post your film on a forum you have to be ready for anything!

I second your entire post!!

Hell, I'm the first to admit that my movies suck, but I'm proud of them nonetheless.

George Lucas called, he said that for $50,000 he can 'fix' your film by adding Jar Jar Binks into it.

 

[VPTurner]

I've been lurking here for over a year now, but I only started actively participating once I finally decided to give my movie making a green light. When first asked what I thought of someone's work, I pussy-footed around the whole "it's art; who am I to judge" persona. That first response came before I had run any footage at all through my XL1s. This same person asked me recently about a project, and I ripped it to shreds: "do this, do that, script it this way, this would be funnier, etc." I went from one extreme to the other. Hey, he asked me to be brutal, so I was. I even took the liberty of writing half a script page using his material illustrating how I would have done a sequence differently.

This is my take. If I wanted sugar coated feedback, I'd ask mom or Carrie Fisher. If I want to grow and learn, I'll throw it in the middle of a group of individuals who are also making films and let them Poke it, talk Loud, put their spinner on it, whack it with a Spatula or what have you in the hopes that one day I may also be knighted. This is a forum of filmmakers, after all, not a group of film critics. I'd expect to hear how others would do something because that's really the only way to know whether or not I'm on the right track to developing my own unique style, voice and vision.

 

[indietalk]

I'm not talking about sugar coating, no one wants that. I'm talking about artistic choices... like the jump cut. If I choose to use the jump cut all over that's my choice. If you want to tell me me it made you dizzy, great. That's honest and not sugar coating. But to go into detail about the right way to edit as if the filmmaker has no clue... that's what I'm talking about.

 

[Spatula]

I like this post, but if I had started it, it would have had more mention of the color "blorange".

I don't mind hearing other people's "takes" on my stuff. You can usually know right away whether to store that information in the memory, or junk it, based on what they are ACTUALLY saying. So it could be useful, as in, exposure to other styles or ways of doing it. You just have to pick through the garbage. Because people who watch my movies are garbage. Dirty, smelly garbage. Yes, that means you- stupid. No, not you, the other you. Yeah- you.

 

[indietalk]

PS.
We have a great group of members here and I don't believe anyone ever dogs anyone's film on purpose. If there is criticism is it constructive. I just don't see the point in the film instructor type reviews for a finished film that is not a work-in-progress. Interesting topic.

 

[Loud Orange Cat]

We are:

• Filmmakers

They are:

• Leonard Maltin
• Michael Medved
• Rex Reed (ooh he's creepy)
• Richard Roeper
• Gene Shalit
• Joel Siegel
• Peter Travers

They're on another website...

 

[indietalk]

I guess that's why
You'd think I would have figured that out

 

[spinner]

...I don't think the problem is so much the criticism, the problem, if we choose to call it a 'problem' is to say: you should do it like this. In a way doesn't it invalidate the artists' vision? Its possible to be critical without calling a person's vision into play. Is anyone going to criticize a David Lynch film? Either it works or it doesn't, and it works for a lot of people. So, to say that he shouldn't 'edit' the way he does, would probably compromise what he is thinking and to that end, it would no longer be a Lynch film.

I remember when 'Homicide' was on the air. The jump cuts were all over the place, the camera moved all the time, I would think that initially people had a problem with that. Of course, when the show began to work, the camera work and editing became what is now called 'stylized'.

It's like who can make the best 'sprocket'. Everyone is going to have thier own way of making it.


...and uh, Spatula, if you had started this thread, I don't think you should have mentioned the color 'blorange' at all, I mean really!

-- spinner

 

[indietalk]

...I don't think the problem is so much the criticism, the problem, if we choose to call it a 'problem' is to say: you should do it like this. In a way doesn't it invalidate the artists' vision?

Yes, that is what I mean by "film instructor" criticism.

 

[knightly]

As the lead post on the most recent screening thread ( http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=11086 ), I think this is targeted at my critique of the piece. I re-read the original post and find that the request was to "enjoy" not to critique. I come from a long line of teachers and have instructed people on a daily basis for the past 10 years in my career. I'm also currently digging into my filmmaking and working to get better by critiquing both what works and what doesn't in what we do. My head is really just in that space currently. Having done research and learning in this field for tha past 6 years, I may just be a little too eager to share the knowledge I've gleaned. I will try to read the intent of the poster better next time.

In my defense, not that I'm actually being attacked. I don't believe my criticism was harsh, rather constructive in nature. And the suggestions I gave were from my perspective as "film as entertainment" rather than "film as art". I would also argue that it's a site of filmmakers who've committed to helping each other improve (and spat and pinky who should just be committed ). Anything posted here and anything we see at all is a learning experience, as is everything we read, hear and do.

If I caused distress, I apologize. If I led others to cause distress, I apologize for that as well.

 

[indietalk]

knightly, I was not targeting anyone. I think what led to me posting this was, I have been thinking lately about adding film reviewers (reviewers who will get DVDs in the mail and post reviews), and it made me think... are these reviewers going to review the films, or are they going to tell the filmmakers what they would have done instead? So that is something to look forward too. Hopefully I will be able to launch this soon. I will be looking for those who have written reviews of films before that have been published. Knightly, if I had a problem with you I'd have the respect to PM you and discuss This was just a light discussion.

 

[VPTurner]

Yes, that is what I mean by "film instructor" criticism.

What if the filmmaker had no idea what s/he was doing in the first place? I mean, I see some modern art where it looks as though a monkey had wild sex with a pipe wrench and a bucket of paint on canvas. Some call it "art". I call it a mess. To me, filmmaking is a craft. To be an artist at film, you first need to know your tools. I am actively studying and learning the tools of my "craft" of filmmaking just like I did when getting into electronic engineering. Only then will I be able to effectively create art. If everyone who picked up a camera could be considered a brilliant artistic filmmaker, then everyone who sings a note at the American Idol auditions is also an artist and they are underappreciated.

Filmmaking is a communication medium. This is just my opinion, but if you fail to communicate your message, whatever the message or whatever the method of delivery, the project "doesn't work". And if it were me receiving the critisicm, I would want to know every gory, technical detail about why it didn't work and what that person would have done differently. On the same note, I would not look at someone's work and say "Brilliant! Wow! What an achievement! You are a true artist! Blah, blah..." if I fell asleep half way through it or started counting ceiling tiles or contemplating my navel during crucial plot exposition.

This forum has a very diverse group, so not everyone will like everything. I would expect to get good and bad criticism from here even if I were Spielberg. Yes, even he has made mistakes at times, things that "didn't work" for me. But that's the beauty of opinion and diversity. I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[indietalk]

Don't get me started on modern art, lol. Paint splatters on the wall is not art to me... and I'm not gonna stand there for two hours with my hand on my chin trying to figure it out. But my point was, I'm not going to tell the painter how he/she can do it better. It's his/her art.

 

[spinner]

I don't have the slightest idea what in particular was being referred to in the initial post. However, one of the things that I like about this site is that I have always felt that people are genuinely trying to help.

I agree with Spatula as well. You have to at least try to take everything in and then take away what your instinct tells you. Not to mention developing a thicker skin. I think you can do that here and still feel as though people are pulling for you.

...that's always been my impression of IndieTalk anyway...

-- spinner