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story Do films need traditional love stories?

durbaq

durbaq

Just got back from The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. It is an adaptation, not a replication of the source material I understand. I thought it was brilliant except the love triangle. It felt so tacky. I know PJ's Lord of the Rings lifted Aragorn and Arwen's love story out of the background. I think, since the success of Titanic and its tragic love story / epic approach to storytelling that it is expected to draw in a crowd?

I tried to show an ex-girlfriend Glory once and she didn't care for it. Why? Because it lacked a traditional love story between a man and a woman.

I'm working on a screenplay at the moment. The leading female character is idolised by her best friend, who lacks the courage to confess his feelings to her. Since seeing TDoS I'm starting to think that maybe it's becoming a cliche, I'm going to explore other avenues that aren't so traditional. Or perhaps its always been part of the main elements of making a crowd-pleasing movie and 'if you can't beat them, join them'

Any thoughts?
 
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You could argue that, but on the other hand, the love story in Hellraiser is from the antagonist's perspective. It's not there to make the film appeal to female viewers and quite definitely not portrayed as a good thing. While love and sex are important themes in the film, I'm not sure I'd describe it that way. Though I do agree that their emotions are a driving motivational force, and it's definitely not forced into the story. I mean, characters should have emotions and motivation, right?

That said, the cenobites don't go for unsuspecting vicitms, and don't eat them, so you maybe thinking Texas Chainsaw ;) They're horror films, but only the really crappy sequels drift into slasher territory. Hellraiser geekery aside, there's a lot of round peg/square hole going around, so yes, you could definitely reinterpret any film with regards to a love story, and if Dirty Harry didn't have a love story, bear in mind that it wasn't directed towards a female audience. It's about as "guy movie" as you can get!

Back on point, durbaq, it sounds like addressing the love life of your hero would be a natural thing, rather than something forced into it. Particularly if you're going for a Hot Fuzz type comedy...the first half of that movie address, deconstructs and mocks action movie cliches, and then the end revels in them. So do the same thing: think about all the cliches inherent to your story...pick them apart and then go with them!
 
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Birdman... this is in fact what every "noob" screenwriting needs... a different way of looking at things (and in fact what the OP asked for).

Are Norman Osborn and Lex Luther evil? Or just overly ambitious (in love with success/money/power)?

If LOVE is the most powerful thing, love of anything is that thing.

Now... as for a traditional (I assume Penis and Vagina) love story... consider how Frank Sinatra and Janet Leigh fell in lust/love in like 30 seconds on a train in the Manchurian Candidate... of course this has to do with a 90 minute running time, but we see this forced in 99% of movies with traditional love stories.

Of course movies where the "love story" is the main plan and not just the B or C story, there is more time to do the ins and outs of falling in love.

Or in the most cursory "love story" consider the ending of the Lord of the Rings when Faramir and Eowyn who never even interact at all in the flick (except maybe a glance) are packaged nice and neat standing next to each other at the end in perhaps the quickest love story ever.

At the end of it all... here is my one bit of advice for both Dinosaurs and Noobs... WATCH MOVIES DIFFERENTLY
 
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What is traditional? Tradition is something long established or habitually done. Is love of money, traditional? Is love of culture, traditional? Is love of pain, traditional? While it may not be said in a straightforward manner, history has shown us that humans often times love to inflict pain, fight for culture, or live for money. While they may be put in untraditional settings or sometimes circumstances, often times almost all stories have a love story. You don't have to put one in, often times it will work itself into your story. Humans have a desire to seek pleasure. Love of pleasure is what drives a character. While Birdman or somebody else might argue that some people are motivated by hate or pain, doesn't the "bad" character love that? What people find as traditional may vary. Someone with a family filled with resentment and anger may find desire for revenge strange, whereas a more "functional" family member will find that desire for revenge untraditional. Everyone has different concepts of what we find traditional. To say something traditional is largely opinion. There's no black and white answer. So write the story you want to write, and let people interpret the love story within.
 
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JoshL said:
You could argue that, but on the other hand, the love story in Hellraiser is from the antagonist's perspective. It's not there to make the film appeal to female viewers and quite definitely not portrayed as a good thing. .... That said, the cenobites don't go for unsuspecting vicitms, and don't eat them
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(SCENE)

(SCRIPT)

==========================

Pinhead: "You enjoyed the girl?"

JP: "Yes."

Pinhead: "Good. So did I."

==========================

Looks like he ate her to me? ...I guess one man's "Eating a girl" is another man's "Traditional Romance"?

Okay, look. None of these movies have anything to do with "Traditional Romance" no matter how much spin is placed on a scene. "Hellraiser III" is a horror flick. "Planet of the Apes" is a SciFi. "Dirty Harry" is a police drama.

I'm SORRY!! You can't say "Dirty Harry loved his gun". ... You can't say "Apes loved their culture". ...You can't say "Pinhead loved eating the skinless body of an unsuspecting disco bimbo" and file it all under "Traditional Love Story". There is absolutely NO ARGUEMENT for linking these movies to "Traditional Love Stories".

"When Harry Met Sally"

"You've Got Mail"

"Serendipity"

THESE movies get filed under "Traditional Love Stores". ...Not frickin' Pinhead, I'm sorry!

-Birdman

P.S. You want a love story that steps out of the "Traditional" box? That's "Ghost"! ....Dead guy in love with an alive girl. Traditional, yet untraditional. And he didn't stick his metaphysical penis in her after he was dead.
 
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If there exists more footage from the Lord of the Rings movies that we haven't seen yet there may be more of Faramir and Eowyn's relationship. In the novel Faramir is in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith and Eowyn is there also and over a period of time they fall in love with one another.

So in the novel it doesn't seem forced but in the theatrical release of Return of the King it does - check out the Extended Edition of Return of the King to see a snippet of the Houses of Healing scene, which still doesn't delve deeply into how they fall for each other but it does give you a taste of their budding relationship. The Houses of Healing scene has awesome music in it by the way. Peter Jackson considers the Extended Editions to be the Director's Cut of the films and I agree with him.
 
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yeah, that's what I meant by "crappy Hellraiser sequels" (at least 3 wasn't as bad as 4, but I haven't sat through either since they came out). Chimp and I were both talking about the first one, but anyway, that's beside the point, and I think we're in agreement on that one.

Speaking of ghost romances, High Spirits is one of my favorite films :)
 
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PhantomScreenwriter said:
If there exists more footage from the Lord of the Rings movies that we haven't seen yet there may be more of Faramir and Eowyn's relationship. In the novel Faramir is in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith and Eowyn is there also and over a period of time they fall in love with one another.

So in the novel it doesn't seem forced but in the theatrical release of Return of the King it does - check out the Extended Edition of Return of the King to see a snippet of the Houses of Healing scene, which still doesn't delve deeply into how they fall for each other but it does give you a taste of their budding relationship. The Houses of Healing scene has awesome music in it by the way. Peter Jackson considers the Extended Editions to be the Director's Cut of the films and I agree with him.
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I think the house of healing scene all we are given is a glance between the two if I remember right.
 
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Birdman said:
(SCENE)

(SCRIPT)

==========================

Pinhead: "You enjoyed the girl?"

JP: "Yes."

Pinhead: "Good. So did I."

==========================

Looks like he ate her to me? ...I guess one man's "Eating a girl" is another man's "Traditional Romance"?

Okay, look. None of these movies have anything to do with "Traditional Romance" no matter how much spin is placed on a scene. "Hellraiser III" is a horror flick. "Planet of the Apes" is a SciFi. "Dirty Harry" is a police drama.

I'm SORRY!! You can't say "Dirty Harry loved his gun". ... You can't say "Apes loved their culture". ...You can't say "Pinhead loved eating the skinless body of an unsuspecting disco bimbo" and file it all under "Traditional Love Story". There is absolutely NO ARGUEMENT for linking these movies to "Traditional Love Stories".

"When Harry Met Sally"

"You've Got Mail"

"Serendipity"

THESE movies get filed under "Traditional Love Stores". ...Not frickin' Pinhead, I'm sorry!

-Birdman

P.S. You want a love story that steps out of the "Traditional" box? That's "Ghost"! ....Dead guy in love with an alive girl. Traditional, yet untraditional. And he didn't stick his metaphysical penis in her after he was dead.
Click to expand...

But the OP said this "I'm going to explore other avenues that aren't so traditional" and by his post, his film isn't a romance or a rom-com and he is curious about how to inject what I assume to be a love story into his B story without it being cliche.

Audiences love characters they can feel with... and fear with. Love of something (most often manifested in another person) is at the same time filled with the excitement of pursuit and then the fear of loss once it has been achieved.

What I and others pointed out is exactly what the OP is looking for... a way to move beyond this cliche.

Bottom line, how to make a "typical" woman care about a story that doesn't include the man and woman traditional love story.

One way might be to give your character something to love that women traditionally love - children, family. This is stereotypical and in its own right, cliche, but at the same time it fulfills that seed within the woman of being able to relate with the main character.

Consider Side Effects. Nowhere near a traditional love story, but the main character is suffering from losing his career, reputation and family only to payoff by validating himself and winning them all back.

Or if the OP is indeed looking at a romcom, based on the snippet of info they provided, then there might be another way to go.

In one of my best scripts, the man is in pursuit of something that puts him in contact with a woman. There relationship is the B story. While it has all the tricks of pursuit and ends in them not being together, it at least does so in a way that advances both the characters and makes them both equally empathetic while leaving the "someday" aspect of their relationship open.
 
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mlesemann said:
If he includes interesting female characters who are central to the plot, that will go a long way toward attracting female viewers.
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So... does that mean token, inconsequential chick on the male WASP protagonist's phone doesn't count as the better half of a traditional love story?
Hmm...

;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGHKoFTNDgw

I wonder is Seth Green and Clare Grant are still hitched...
Yup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Green
 
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Birdman said:
Looks like he ate her to me? ...I guess one man's "Eating a girl" is another man's "Traditional Romance"?
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That's the third film, not the first. The first film did have some elements of romance in them. There was love between Frank and Julia. Strange circumstances and setting, but without the aspect of love, it would be a whole other film. If you took out that aspect, then well, the film would be Frank running from authorities or up the attic never discovered because Julia either got scared and ran away or Julia was killed earlier. Like I stated in an earlier post, what traditional love is, is well, debatable. In films like Harry Met Sally, their love developed over a LONG time span. I've seen other films where it's love at first sight. So, which one of those are "traditional". Years and years or minutes and minutes? If the argument is made that it can be both, than that is my answer to you. Love can be in all genres. Love doesn't necessarily have to be for a human. Love can be for a desired state of being, or perhaps goal (if we want to take a dark turn) such as killing something. Sure, perhaps they are untraditional settings, but are they untraditional love stories. Pinhead loves inflicting pain upon others. Frank loves Julia even though one of them cannot be revealed. I can't see how we can just write it off as one thing. Movies can have different elements. Different themes. Different and conflicting ideas and tones and concepts. Love is the driving force for pretty much anything. With a murder, it may be the desire for a state of happiness by killing a character. Or it could be well, insanity and the killer somehow things that they are accomplishing some sort of goal or reach happiness - something they love. I'm not saying this is always the case, but very often love is a driving force for most. But what is traditional is debatable. Again, what is more traditional: a love that develops over years or minutes?

Okay, look. None of these movies have anything to do with "Traditional Romance" no matter how much spin is placed on a scene. "Hellraiser III" is a horror flick. "Planet of the Apes" is a SciFi. "Dirty Harry" is a police drama.
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Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a drama/romance/science fiction/comedy film.
The Dark Knight is a drama/superhero/action/thriller film.
Pulp Fiction is a crime/action/drama/comedy film.
____ ____ is a drama/romance/action/thriller/dark comedy film.
Pan's Labyrinth is a fantasy/horror/drama film.
The Truman Show is a romance/comedy/drama/science fiction film.
The Graduate is a drama/romance/dark comedy film.
Rocky is a romance/drama/sports film.
Twelve Monkeys is a drama/science fiction/thriller/dark comedy film.
A Beautiful Mind is a drama/romance/thriller film.
There Will Be Blood is a drama/thriller/dark comedy.

These are all examples of films with mixed genres. All of them critically acclaimed and most classics. They have have different major genre elements that make them the films that they are. Most of them have romance elements. Eternal Sunshine, The Truman Show, The Graduate, Rocky and A Beautiful Mind are obviously romances. Although They all had either elements of science fiction, comedy, or dark comedy. They aren't one thing. 12 Monkeys had a romance subplot if I remember correctly, between the woman and Bruce Willis. Another example (another Gilliam film) would be Brazil. There was a strong romantic subplot that drove the story in another direction and completely changed the tone of the entire motion picture. ____ ____ is a romance in some sorts. _____ and ___ ________ are in ____, aren't they? That was a major part of the story, wasn't it. Sorry, I would put the name of the film, but there's a certain first rule about not talking about it.


I'm SORRY!! You can't say "Dirty Harry loved his gun". ... You can't say "Apes loved their culture". ...You can't say "Pinhead loved eating the skinless body of an unsuspecting disco bimbo" and file it all under "Traditional Love Story". There is absolutely NO ARGUEMENT for linking these movies to "Traditional Love Stories".
Click to expand...

Why not? (oh, and by the way - I don't recall Pinhead eating the skinless body of an "unsuspecting disco bimbo" in the ORIGINAL FILM. Yes, there is an argument for linking the love of objects other than a man and a woman to a traditional love story. What is traditional really depends on how you were raised and the environment you are currently in. For example, a person who had a destructive or violent family might find a character's love for violence or hate more traditional, whereas someone less jaded will find it more untraditional. Another example would be a same sex love story. For someone who grew up against say gay marriage, I assure you how "traditional" it is will be far different then how someone who is comfortable or okay with it. Another example would be a love that developed over the internet or by phone. That would be less traditional for someone who is not experienced or interested in electronics or the internet, and more traditional for someone who developed a relationship or knows people who developed relationships that way. I could go on and on and on and on about what would be traditional to some and untraditional to others. Now when I think we disagree about what is traditional is a relationship between two human beings. Love can often be between a human being and a state of being, for an object, for a desired emotion, or a wanted state of another object or human being. History has shown us that people often desire pain upon another, money, power, fame, happiness, death for another, or sadness for another.

P.S. You want a love story that steps out of the "Traditional" box? That's "Ghost"! ....Dead guy in love with an alive girl. Traditional, yet untraditional. And he didn't stick his metaphysical penis in her after he was dead.
Click to expand...

Okay. What's your point? Traditional love stories can be placed in untraditional settings or circumstances. Anyway, one of the main points I'm trying to make is that traditional is debatable.
 
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I would want to drop the "traditional" part and substitute it with something like "conventional." If the OP wants a "traditional romance between a man and a woman" to appeal to his/her ex-girlfriend or a female audience, then that's easy enough. Put a traditional romance between a man and a woman in your story.

But I like Snyder's take on this. The love story does not need to be a "traditional" romance between a man and a woman. It can be a buddy (love) story. Or, he gives as an example the relationship between Sandra Bullock and the girl contestants in Miss Congeniality. Anyway, I'd recommend getting rid of this commitment to a "traditional man and a woman romance scenario." Think more broadly...like Snyder.

It's been way too long since I saw Dirty Harry, so I won't even try to guess or speculate.

And it's been a long time since I saw The Enforcer. But I'm pretty sure there was a buddy love story between him and Kate Moore (Tyne Daly). Right? Well, I can't remember for sure.

I think there is a love story in Hellraiser. Apart from the one between the bad guys, there's the father-daughter love story. It's not a romance, thank heavens, but it's surely a love story of a subplot, right?

I'd argue there's an obvious love story in Planet of the Apes, too. Though I don't think it should be necessary to argue the point. I think it's pretty clear. It's even more clear in Burton's remake. It's between George Taylor (Bright Eyes) and Zira.
 
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Wow, it's only my first post to the site and we seem to have quite a debate going on! Thanks for your awesome replies, I'm going to look back over the script in due course. At the moment it's only sporadic scenes and dialogue - I've got a vague backstory but I'm feeling out the characters at the moment.

Currently the film feels to me like Kick-Ass but if she really had superpowers. I say superpowers, it's more like a curse, and her abilities are used to benefit people above her i.e. do their dirty work. Hmmm, the screenplay has evolved quite a bit from my initial idea...

Begin in media res...
A normal middle class suburban family are having dinner when quite unexpectedly a cache of money crashes through the ceiling, containing £50million. The eldest daughter then has to come clean about her double life since the money quite clearly came from her bedroom.

I'm feeling it as a cross between the love for her family, or going for the 'escaping the friendzone' scenario.

Any opinions? Commence the dissection!
 
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durbaq said:
Wow, it's only my first post to the site and we seem to have quite a debate going on! Thanks for your awesome replies, I'm going to look back over the script in due course. At the moment it's only sporadic scenes and dialogue - I've got a vague backstory but I'm feeling out the characters at the moment.

Currently the film feels to me like Kick-Ass but if she really had superpowers. I say superpowers, it's more like a curse, and her abilities are used to benefit people above her i.e. do their dirty work. Hmmm, the screenplay has evolved quite a bit from my initial idea...

Begin in media res...
A normal middle class suburban family are having dinner when quite unexpectedly a cache of money crashes through the ceiling, containing £50million. The eldest daughter then has to come clean about her double life since the money quite clearly came from her bedroom.

I'm feeling it as a cross between the love for her family, or going for the 'escaping the friendzone' scenario.

Any opinions? Commence the dissection!
Click to expand...

ok... first... is this a script you're writing on spec or something you plan on producing yourself?
 
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durbaq said:
... a cache of money crashes through the ceiling, containing £50million...

Any opinions? Commence the dissection!
Click to expand...
Umm... yeah.
Is this a comedy?

Have you any good idea how much volume £50million would occupy or the weight required to break through floor joists?

http://1000000-euro.de/how-much-does-a-million-pounds-weigh/index.php
The amount of £ 50,000,000 would have in 50 Pound Sterling Notes a weight of 1.21 t. A single stack of money with 1,000,000 new banknotes would be 133.00 m (145.45 yards) high und would have a volume of at least 1,763.58 litres.​

http://ncalculators.com/number-conversion/cube-root-calculator.htm
Cube root of 1,763.58 litres is 12 = 12 x 12 x 12 liter (?) block of cash in her cache. :D

How on earth is she going to have that much cash in her bedroom without her family knowing about it?

ok... first... is this a script you're writing on spec or something you plan on producing yourself?
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Oh, it's a spec script, which reminds me...

PathOfAFeatureFilm_zps717817db.png

And OP is still at the "Plans" point.



mlesemann said:
Yeah, pretty much :yes:

Rayw - I think you & I had a similar discussion about this a few months ago, no?
:)
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Yeah!
It's probably safe to say token females/significant others in stories are a mutual pet peeve. ;)
 
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