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Do films need traditional love stories?

durbaq

durbaq

Just got back from The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. It is an adaptation, not a replication of the source material I understand. I thought it was brilliant except the love triangle. It felt so tacky. I know PJ's Lord of the Rings lifted Aragorn and Arwen's love story out of the background. I think, since the success of Titanic and its tragic love story / epic approach to storytelling that it is expected to draw in a crowd?

I tried to show an ex-girlfriend Glory once and she didn't care for it. Why? Because it lacked a traditional love story between a man and a woman.

I'm working on a screenplay at the moment. The leading female character is idolised by her best friend, who lacks the courage to confess his feelings to her. Since seeing TDoS I'm starting to think that maybe it's becoming a cliche, I'm going to explore other avenues that aren't so traditional. Or perhaps its always been part of the main elements of making a crowd-pleasing movie and 'if you can't beat them, join them'

Any thoughts?
 
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What is the demographic of this film's audience?
For whom is it made?

20120213FilmDemographicQuadrants1.png

(Petty note: this exact image is one that I scammed from a
MPAA document page and is now being used by others :lol:
http://www.screencraft.org/blog/four-quadrant-film-10-essential-elements/

Another way of looking at it would be "From whom do you NOT want top take money from?"

Of course, attempting to pander to all audiences all the time is just absurd, but seriously, you gotta just consider who the primary target is and then just write for them.

Also, is this a spec screenplay you'd like to sell, or one you plan on shooting yourself - for which you'll be directly responsible for it's marketing when you next move onto the role of producer/marketer/huckster?
 
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Well at the moment the film focuses on the main female who has powers not unlike that of an X-Men character. So I suppose it's a superhero movie, maybe, not unlike Kick Ass but nowhere near as high concept as Superman or Batman. I want it to be very understated. It's also undoubtedly British and I'm aiming for a Hot Fuzz approach to the sueprhero genre, as in the way that film took on the action/crime one whilst mantaining a unique texture.

So the demographic must be in those age groups. It's the old story: she can't fall in love with anyone due to her powers and responsibilities... but it's been done before!

To be honest, I'd love to see this movie on the big screen someday but where to sell it, and how? It just feels like an endless ocean.
 
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Don't shoehorn a love story in there just because you feel like films "need" them - movies definitely do not need traditional love stories, and independent projects in particular aren't beholden to anything. At the same time, make the movie you want to make! Love stories are popular for a reason - they're deeply relatable - and it sounds like the love story element was an important part of your original concept. I wouldn't take it out, just like I wouldn't just add one in.

Let's look at some blockbuster examples: I'd say Jaws doesn't have a traditional love story (one of the characters is married, but that gets very little screen time), Inception doesn't have a traditional love story, Star Wars doesn't really develop one until the second (fifth?) film... But these are very high concept movies. If you want to ground your film a little bit and have more human/character drama, you probably should play with romantic relationships a little bit. It's just an important part of who we are.

That said, you could probably be a bit more out of the box than "best friend idolizes her, lacks the courage to tell her" - especially if the two end up together. You're right in that it's a cliche, but it's also a dangerous one. It implies that when a girl and a guy are good friends the only thing stopping them from moving on to the next step is the guy's courage. Sometimes the girl is just not interested or attracted to the guy - and that should be okay, since it's no fault of her own - but we never see that conveyed in movies. The situation - the guy is scared to tell his girl best friend how he feels - sounds familiar both in that I've seen it in movies before and experienced it in my life, but whereas in movies the guy always somehow gets the girl, in real life I've rarely seen it play out that way. There's something about that whole situation that just feels inauthentic to me.

Obviously I haven't read your script - it's possible that the relationship develops and grows organically - but I'd caution you to avoid the whole "she finds out at the end of act 2 and then suddenly realizes she also has feelings for him" gimmick.

------------------------------------
I've made a science fiction/fantasy love story feature film and I'd appreciate it if you could check it out. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jasmerrin/sleepwalkers-feature-film
Take whatever I say with a grain of salt, because I have no idea what I'm doing.
 
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Love story...

every single movie ever has a love story within in...

Transformers - Bubble-Bee and Labouf's character

Space Odessy - HAL and his own existence

The Hobbit (the good one) - Biblo and his forbidden love of adventure

Just because there is a love story, doesn't mean it has to be cliche

Heck, look at She ... love story with a guy and his computer (yeah this is the main story)

I think why a traditional man / woman love story is included is because writers aren't good enough to create a character the audience cares about without going for the easy way out
 
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Heck no is it cliché.

It's timeless.

But like Jasmerrin says, that doesn't necessarily mean you should shoehorn one in.

On the other hand, the high priest of Hollywood (and I.T.) screenwriting, Blake Snyder, pretty much said you need to. Though he called it B Story. But, it's not necessarily a conventional love story. I won't try to explain what he means here. I'd probably only butcher it. Or infringe. And I'm feeling a little too lazy about it. But really, we should probably all have a copy of Save the Cat, so get yours, if you don't already.

I like the love stories. I think that people who boohoo and complain about how trivial or obligatory they are are pretty much full of it. It's a show. An affectation. They should get over themselves and their hang-ups about it. Love in a story isn't cliché. It's human nature. It inspires. It moves. It stirs. You can hardly go wrong with it. Who doesn't -in actuality- want love, to love, and to be loved? It's very human, as human as anything else.

That's why people want love stories, even if only in the subplots. That's why audiences will pay over and over and over to see and to hear them. Sex sells? Sure it does. But so does love. In spades.

Naturally.

Of course.

Lots and lots of romantic love.

Peter Jackson is smart.

Peter Jackson is human.

I like the love stories in his Tolkien films.

Maybe, in some corners romantic love is uncool.

Romantic love, they say, was invented in the Middle Ages, I guess.

But I think they're full of it. At least in part.

However people might want to spin it today, it's clear that whoever wrote Song of Solomon knew something about romantic love.

Romantic love is as old as pair bonding, I should think. And pair bonding is as old as the species, at least.

Having said that, I wouldn't advise you to, as I said, shoehorn one in, if it's really contrary to what you want to do. (I'm warming up to Snyder. But I wouldn't say I'm exactly on the BS2 Bandwagon, either.)

Anyway, personally, I like love stories. =)
 
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durbaq said:
Well at the moment the film focuses on the main female who has powers not unlike that of an X-Men character. So I suppose it's a superhero movie, maybe, not unlike Kick Ass but nowhere near as high concept as Superman or Batman. I want it to be very understated. It's also undoubtedly British and I'm aiming for a Hot Fuzz approach to the sueprhero genre, as in the way that film took on the action/crime one whilst mantaining a unique texture.
Click to expand...
Sigh...
Let me do your homework for you...

X-Men: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120903/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt
5:1 males:females
7:5 under/over 30
20% females. Guess who probably paid for most of those tickets? Include the GD love story.

Kick Ass: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1250777/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt
6:1 males:females
3:1 under/over 30
15% females. Include the GD love story.

Superman : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078346/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt
8:1 males:females
3:4 under/over 30
13% females. Include the GD love story.

Batman : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096895/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt
7:1 males:females
8:7 under/over 30
14% females. Include the GD love story.

Hot Fuzz : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425112/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt
6:1 males:females
7:4 under/over 30
15% females. Include the GD love story. Make it a buddy story instead if you like, a la 'Lethal Weapon', 'Rush Hour', or 'Sherlock Holmes.'
 
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Hey Ray, just a question.

Those numbers you linked to, they're numbers of voters from imdb right? If so, do you know how accurate of an indicator these are to actual attendance ratios?

The reason I ask is I looked up a couple films that I'd assume would skew wildly towards female audiences (The Notebook, Bridget Jones' Diary) and they will have a higher number of male voters.
 
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Nope.
I have no strong or weak correlation between IMDB voter/user numbers and theater head counts, which I probaly could go hunt down at boxofficemojo - but just don't feel like it.
(OP can go get "quality" homework at his/her leisure. :lol:)

Now, you do bring up a valid observation that we can make a reasonable deduction that while the female theatrical attendence is roughly the same as male, the writers and directors are predominantly male, and it's likely that males are more assertive in posting their opinions at a site like IMDB, thus almost invalidating the data for any gender ratio quantification.

Include the GD love story.
It's a spec script, after all.
In the 1/100,000 chance it does sell the producer/director can cut the love story out if they want.

But if the OP honestly wants to see his/her work up on the screen - better learn how to direct.
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?p=347081&highlight=rubes#post347081
 
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rayw said:
Now, you do bring up a valid observation that we can make a reasonable deduction that while the female theatrical attendence is roughly the same as male, the writers and directors are predominantly male, and it's likely that males are more assertive in posting their opinions at a site like IMDB, thus almost invalidating the data for any gender ratio quantification.
Click to expand...

My aim wasn't to attempt to debunk your data. I was attempting to work out if that data was a fairly accurate sample of the demographics to base my own research upon. I do think that it can give you an indication of how strong a ratio is, though you may need to discount the male votes to gain a more accurate idea of the ratio and pick up the viewership from the box office numbers divided by the average admission ticket price.

I was also surprised by the age bracket numbers. It seems older voters vote more on IMDB where the younger ones participate (maybe) more elsewhere.

Just food for thought. Though, apologize to the OP for going so off topic.
 
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The Terminator, Back to the Future, The Mummy Returns and Superman: The Movie to name a few examples of movies that feature a romantic relationship in them without it being classified solely as a romantic film.

These movies prove you can have a genre film with a romantic relationship in them but there are plenty that don't and are still successful. So it comes down to your target audience and what you do to cater to their needs.
 
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Love stories don't origin from Titanic :P

Think of this:
what makes 'normal' people dare and risk everything?
Or suffer?

What makes the audience think: "Ow no, don't say that!"
"Don't let her/him walk away."?

One of the simplest answers: love.

It's one of the most human elements in any story, because it can trigger every emotion.
 
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tokenwhiteboy said:
Planet of the Apes has a love story... the Ape's love of their culture.
Click to expand...

Since the subject is, "Traditional Love Stories", one of my favorite traditional love scenes is in "Hellraiser" when Pinhead shot a bunch of hooks and chains into an unsuspecting woman's flesh, ripped her skin off and then ate her.

...That's traditional? ...Right?

-Birdman
 
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Birdman said:
Since the subject is, "Traditional Love Stories", one of my favorite traditional love scenes is in "Hellraiser" when Pinhead shot a bunch of hooks and chains into an unsuspecting woman's flesh, ripped her skin off and then ate her.

...That's traditional? ...Right?

-Birdman
Click to expand...

Friday the 13th... Mrs. Voorhees loves her son.
 
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Birdman said:
Since the subject is, "Traditional Love Stories", one of my favorite traditional love scenes is in "Hellraiser" when Pinhead shot a bunch of hooks and chains into an unsuspecting woman's flesh, ripped her skin off and then ate her.

...That's traditional? ...Right?

-Birdman
Click to expand...

As I recall, the love story was between the dead dude and the woman who was giving him skin. That's fairly traditional... right? A love story between a man and a woman that must be kept secret? Not that the dead part, but a large part of the story IS motivated by love... Without the love aspect, it would be a whole other film.
 
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You people are completely whacked! ...I'm learning now that "Hellraiser", "Dirty Harry" and "Planet of the Apes" are all representative of the traditional love story.

I feel sorry for any screenplay writing noob who should happen to stumble into this thread looking for direction.

-Birdman
 
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