conversation cutaways

[doomedvideos]

Ok so I am trying to work out in my head this, which maybe simple but I may need some sort of clarification:

If I have filmed 2 people talking with 2 different angels over the shoulder one side and the other, when I want to edit and cut away when A is talking to see B, does the audio overlap the second clip with no sound? or does the sound of the second clip carry on, the thing I dont get is if the sound carrys on in the second clip you may hear the voice of the first clip twice in a way.

Or do I overlap the audio from clip 1 to clip 2 and then take away the audio from clip 2 until clip 1 has finished then carry the audio on from clip 2.

also what happens if they both talk at the same time, obviously having both audio would cause too much reverb or somthing.

Or is it when filming you direct one actor to act alone in a way which can be edited later?


sorry if this sounds quite all over the place. Im just trying to get my head around the basics of a conversation whislt cuting away to the other person.


if you have read this far, thanks.

 

[2001 Productions]

Or do I overlap the audio from clip 1 to clip 2 and then take away the audio from clip 2 until clip 1 has finished then carry the audio on from clip 2.

Yes. (How's that for a concise answer?)

also what happens if they both talk at the same time, obviously having both audio would cause too much reverb or somthing.

It would only sound like reverb if they were saying the same thing. If you want the two actors' dialog to overlap then overlap it. Not a problem.

Or is it when filming you direct one actor to act alone in a way which can be edited later?

Not sure I understand this question. When I direct a dialog scene, I just tell the actors to be careful not to overlap (if only one is mic'ed; if both are mic'ed it doesn't matter), otherwise you have "off-mic" audio to deal with in editing. If the scene calls for them to overlap I make it happen in editing.

 

[doomedvideos]

thanks for that 2001,

What still kind of bugs me is that i am going on the asumption that i may have many different takes with different angels , so say I have shot A to overlap shot B i wouldnt want the off mic sound of A talking whilst be, i guess u just need to delete the audio of that right? i think im going round in madness here, this whole audio cutaway thing is taking over my life, i am thinking about these problems 24.7, i even woke up in the night last week and thought about a problem, 'thats it!'

 

[Alcove Audio]

Cutting dialog is an art form all to itself; that's why there are dialog editors. 2kProds gave the right answer - you let the audio continue under the visual edit. That's a good place to start, but the more you learn the more you find out that there's more you need to learn. I posted some info about dialog cutting in this thread:

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=18360

I think it's #8.

Reverb is when a myriad of minute reflections occur at the same time; a sound source is reflected off of the walls, floor ceiling and other hard surfaces. Extreme examples are gymnasiums, hallways, indoor pools, etc. There are a huge number of software plug-ins that can emulate this effect.

At one time reverb was created by condensers attached to springs suspended over metal plates; some of them occupied entire closets.

These days Impulse Response (IR) reverbs can capture the reverb impulses of real acoustic spaces and emulate them. They are extremely helpful when you need to match ADR to production dialog, or to create a sense of space when the entire scene is looped. I use Altiverb from Audioease; they add new IRs all the time and, with the right gear, you can create you own.

 

[2001 Productions]

say I have shot A to overlap shot B i wouldnt want the off mic sound of A talking whilst be, i guess u just need to delete the audio of that right?

Of course. Why would you keep audio you don't want? That's what editing is: keeping only the best stuff and eliminating everything else.

 

[doomedvideos]

Thankyou people, I shall keep reading this all week so this all sinks into my brain.

Just one thing Alvoe, you said this on one of your posts:

You also must checkerboard the dialog; this means that you will take away all of the room tone from between the lines of dialog and then place the lines from each character onto an individual audio track.

Would I really need to do this with my low quality mic/set up? is this necessary as the room tone is already recorded the first time? why would I need to do this. I have tryed this once before and it sounded odd.

 

[Alcove Audio]

As I said initially, dialog editing is an art form unto itself. It requires a great set of ears, a good listening environment, decent speakers, a decent DAW and an understanding of how to use noise reduction, cross-fading & EQ combined with an esthetic knowledge of cutting dialog. Of course, you need well recorded dialog to cut to begin with; but that's another issue.

The reason to eliminate the production sound "room tone" between lines of dialog - ultimately - is to have control over every last detail in the final audio mix; hey we're all control freaks, right? The primary reason is that it reduces the multitude of extraneous sounds that always manage to creep into the production sound tracks.

Trying to explain dialog editing in a few short posts is like describing color to a person blind from birth; it can't be done. The same applies to the other audio disciplines - recording, editing and mixing ADR; recording, editing and mixing Foley; recording, editing and mixing sound FX and the re-recording process (audio mixing). Hey, could you explain editing the visuals in one post?

For a good overview of the process I would recommend "Sound Design: The Expressive Power of Music, Voice and Sound Effects in Cinema" by David Sonnenschein and "The Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound" by David Lewis Yewdall. The Sonnenschein book takes a more artistic viewpoint, the Yewdall book, though a little dated, takes a more technical viewpoint.


Reading books and cruising the internet is no substitute for practical experience. You should take your project to a real audio post professional and live through the process. Watching him/her work, but more important LISTENING to what s/he does, will teach you more in one day than a dozen books and asking hundreds of forum questions.

 

[doomedvideos]

Cheers again alcove,

The first book you mentioned by David Sonnenschein is quite cheap on Play.com so I think I may get that today. I guess I shall learn more with more practice and talking to people.

 

[directorik]

Practice is a great thing. If you have a camera (even
with a built in mic) and two friends who will sit at
table and read lines from a script, you can give it a
try.

Shoot a simple dialogue scene from a bunch of
different angles - your friends reading the lines over
and over. Then get the footage into your editing
software and start playing around with it. Don't worry
about the lighting, the continuity or even having
excellent audio - this is editing practice.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I'm not trying to scare you off, but audio is a very deep subject. As with most disciplines, the more you learn the more you learn that there is more you need to learn.

I've been sitting behind a console - a computer screen these days - for more years than I care to admit, and I learn something new every day. The best advice I ever got was from a computer programmer back in the early 80's, long before Windows, when we still did most of our work in "C"; "It's very simple, but there's one HELL of a lot of simple." So take human bites and pick one aspect of audio to study every week. For production sound work you will need to know about microphones (types, polar patterns, etc.), signal path and gain-staging. For audio post you'll start with basic editing techniques, track layouts, cross-fading, EQ (equalization), dynamic processing, sub-mixes and volume automation.

Follow directorik's advice. Once you've finished your dialog edit start with some EQ. Be radical just to find out what they do. There's Hi-Pass EQ - which allows high frequencies to pass through - and Low-Pass EQ - which allows low frequencies to pass through. Low-pass is helpful when reducing hiss, Hi-pass is helpful when reducing rumble. Parametric EQs are used for zoning in on specific frequencies.

Have fun!

 

[doomedvideos]

directorik,

Yeah I am going to try that, going to get a couple of people to read somthing i did, for a test.



Alcove,

Well im not scared off yet, which is good, all I want to do is make my film ideas, so I need to know what I need to know, If I somtimes feel a bit of enthusiasm has gone I say to myself "what ellse are you going to do?"

At the moment im trying to learn everyting i can about making films, but the audio is the one that i seem to be asking the most questions.

I'm not trying to scare you off, but audio is a very deep subject. As with most
Have fun!

Think I have done this with the last couple of videos I did, but there was some sort of line graph thing, I just moved it around until it sounded right, trial and error really.

 

[M1chae1]

This may have been said already but...

As far as overlapping dialog...don't do it. Not unless you are using lavs on both actors or boom micing both actors. It's best to have the actors create their own quick pause during performance and recording, and in the editing room you create the overlap or spacing...it's cleaner that way.

Good actors know to do this. It looks 'fake' during performance...but the film crew will understand what they are doing, and respect them for that.

 

[Alcove Audio]

One more little tidbit... You can overlap the dialog during the editing process. As long as your angles don't show the mouths of both actors at the same time you can increase the pace and intensity of some scenes with the actors lines stepping on each other. It worked quite well on a feature that I worked on several years ago, a couple having very heated argument.

 

[doomedvideos]

This may have been said already but...

As far as overlapping dialog...don't do it. Not unless you are using lavs on both actors or boom micing both actors. It's best to have the actors create their own quick pause during performance and recording, and in the editing room you create the overlap or spacing...it's cleaner that way.

Good actors know to do this. It looks 'fake' during performance...but the film crew will understand what they are doing, and respect them for that.

I see what your saying that was what I was trying to say earlier. I do only have one boom but I do want to overlap at least a few times or it will look to ping pong like, Ill have to test and try things.

Arguments espeicaly should over lap I tink unless it was intended to cut bit by bit like ping pong but that would be for effect i guess.

 

[directorik]

I don’t believe there is ever a “don’t do it” when learning how to
make movies. Try everything! Learn what works for you and what
doesn’t.

I often direct actors to speak over each other. Sometimes it’s
best to do the overlap in editing but sometimes doing it on set
works better.

I'll bet the reason both Michael and Alcove offer the advise they
do is because they tried several methods and have found what
works best for them. I come from the "try and try again" school
of thought. I learned best from trying and failing. So that's why
my advice to you, doomed, is to try different methods. Don't be
afraid to just do it.

 

[doomedvideos]

I don’t believe there is ever a “don’t do it” when learning how to
make movies. Try everything! Learn what works for you and what
doesn’t.

I often direct actors to speak over each other. Sometimes it’s
best to do the overlap in editing but sometimes doing it on set
works better.

I'll bet the reason both Michael and Alcove offer the advise they
do is because they tried several methods and have found what
works best for them. I come from the "try and try again" school
of thought. I learned best from trying and failing. So that's why
my advice to you, doomed, is to try different methods. Don't be
afraid to just do it.

That sounds good mate, i like.

 

[M1chae1]

I don’t believe there is ever a “don’t do it” when learning how to
make movies. Try everything! Learn what works for you and what
doesn’t.

I often direct actors to speak over each other. Sometimes it’s
best to do the overlap in editing but sometimes doing it on set
works better.

I'll bet the reason both Michael and Alcove offer the advise they
do is because they tried several methods and have found what
works best for them. I come from the "try and try again" school
of thought. I learned best from trying and failing. So that's why
my advice to you, doomed, is to try different methods. Don't be
afraid to just do it.

The reason I give that advice, is because three of the directors I worked with in the past have told me the same thing--in addition, I've watched an editor go crazy over on-set overlap.

But it's true...you can have overlap...just make sure you are properly micing the entire conversation. It will make your life much more easy in the editing room for sound design.

And for the most part, Rik is right...there isn't a 'don't do it' for a lot of aspects...you can experiment. But let's be honest...are you going to tell a DP or CO to go ahead and break the 180 degree rule? Are you going to tell a boom op to mic the master but not the CU? There are certain things you don't do...lol.

One thing that bugs me about some directors now'adays...is they think the 'improv' on set is a cool thing...I'm talking about entire scenes of improv. They don't care about matching dialog, blocking, continuity...anything. Man that's a headache in the editing room, and usually no matter how skilled the editor is...the final cut looks odd. That's definitely not a 'don't do'...but it certainly is a 'I wouldn't.'...lol

 

[doomedvideos]

Ok so I filmed 2 people acting out a scene from my screenplay last night. I had a master shot of them both in chairs and then over the shoulder shots from one and the other.

Problem I found was that on the master shot when they were both in the frame I was cueing but when one said one thing and one said another I was turning it to whoever was talking but somtimes missing as I was not fast enough to point to the person who talked. Not sure if this is me being a bad boom op or there is a reason, like I need another boom lol.

Also I made a BIG mistake, infact a stupid mistake. On the over the shoulder shots I pointed the mic to the person who was not in frame instead of the person who was in frame talking. You can still hear the other person but its just not as loud, maybe I can still work with this footage for a test of overlaping but damn I should of not been so confused.

 

[M1chae1]

Ok so I filmed 2 people acting out a scene from my screenplay last night. I had a master shot of them both in chairs and then over the shoulder shots from one and the other.

Problem I found was that on the master shot when they were both in the frame I was cueing but when one said one thing and one said another I was turning it to whoever was talking but somtimes missing as I was not fast enough to point to the person who talked. Not sure if this is me being a bad boom op or there is a reason, like I need another boom lol.

Also I made a BIG mistake, infact a stupid mistake. On the over the shoulder shots I pointed the mic to the person who was not in frame instead of the person who was in frame talking. You can still hear the other person but its just not as loud, maybe I can still work with this footage for a test of overlaping but damn I should of not been so confused.

Doh! You will have to either use the audio from the master if it works, or have the actors come in to ADR. As you obviously know, when you're doing a CU on an actor...that is the actor you mic.

When you shoot a master...just do your best to mic whoever is talking. If you're not skilled enough, or your mic is creeky and loud, keep your mic stationary to record nat sound of the scene. You should mostly be using audio from each individuals CU anyway when on the master. But if that doesn't match up, just do a few takes of the master, micing each actor separately.

 

[doomedvideos]

Doh! You will have to either use the audio from the master if it works, or have the actors come in to ADR. As you obviously know, when you're doing a CU on an actor...that is the actor you mic.

When you shoot a master...just do your best to mic whoever is talking. If you're not skilled enough, or your mic is creeky and loud, keep your mic stationary to record nat sound of the scene. You should mostly be using audio from each individuals CU anyway when on the master. But if that doesn't match up, just do a few takes of the master, micing each actor separately.

This was only for a test practice but still it was a shame, I think i did have the mic stationary on one of the master shots, at least i hope i did lol.

ill see what i can do.