stephen - what do you use to convert the films to Quicktime? Do you tend to get them on dvd anyway, or on tape/film? Cubase SX can load digital film formats (avi/mpg etc) but at the mo, the best thing I have for conversion is a digital camera which can make short (4min) movies. It's OK, especially with a time-coded vhs, but it's not the same as using a dvd.
COMPOSER's THREAD
- Thread starter Stephen Kaminski
- Start date
I prefer and usually ask for the film on Mini DV format, but I can convert from DV CAM, S-VHS, VHS, BETA and even 3/4" to MINI DV and then import it from my camera to my computer as Quick Time. I haven't gotten anything yet on DVD.
When I did the music for the Shaman King (FOX Saturday Mornings) they sent out the scenes as Quick Time files with SMPTE burned in. So that was easy.
When I did the music for the Shaman King (FOX Saturday Mornings) they sent out the scenes as Quick Time files with SMPTE burned in. So that was easy.
(at the risk of sounding stupid....) mini dv - is that as in a hand-help, digital video camera? Which presumably links (what, via usb?) to your computer?
I'm really trying to get used to the different film formats, and ways of converting them onto computer, what gear you'd need etc. Now, the vhs, beta (do people even use betamax these days?) s-vhs - yes, I'm familiar with them, though as yet I don't know what I'd need to accurately transfer onto pc. What's the difference between mini dv ad dvcam?
I'm really trying to get used to the different film formats, and ways of converting them onto computer, what gear you'd need etc. Now, the vhs, beta (do people even use betamax these days?) s-vhs - yes, I'm familiar with them, though as yet I don't know what I'd need to accurately transfer onto pc. What's the difference between mini dv ad dvcam?
My camera is a MINI DV (Miniature Digital Video) format digital camera (Sony Handy Cam-type) It hooks up to a PC / MAC via Firewire. USB is usually used for still photo transfers.
My camera has composite (RCA) inputs that will accept video input from pretty much any other video source. You record it on MINI DV in the camera and then upload it to your PC/MAC by Firewire. Some cameras will act as a converter and let you pass the video signal through the camera without recording into the camera first.
There are also straight video converters out there that act as video ports for the PC instead of using a camera at all.
DV CAM tapes are larger in size than MINI DV, hence the name. DV cameras are usually one format or the other, but some DVCAM Decks play and record both formats. MINIs are about the size of a DAT, DV CAM tapes are about the size of an audio cassette tape. There are also many other tape formats for cameras, but you would be best off to get a digital camera.
And yes, I have run into people still using Beta. Mostly for advertising.
My camera has composite (RCA) inputs that will accept video input from pretty much any other video source. You record it on MINI DV in the camera and then upload it to your PC/MAC by Firewire. Some cameras will act as a converter and let you pass the video signal through the camera without recording into the camera first.
There are also straight video converters out there that act as video ports for the PC instead of using a camera at all.
DV CAM tapes are larger in size than MINI DV, hence the name. DV cameras are usually one format or the other, but some DVCAM Decks play and record both formats. MINIs are about the size of a DAT, DV CAM tapes are about the size of an audio cassette tape. There are also many other tape formats for cameras, but you would be best off to get a digital camera.
And yes, I have run into people still using Beta. Mostly for advertising.
Good morning guys (from snowy Atlanta...)
It's been busy around here - sorry I haven't responded sooner. I'm using a Kurzweil 2600xs completely loaded with the orchestral roms. It's been a real treat since I bougth it quite a few years ago. I run it into a Behringer mixer and, from there, into an aural exciter for that crisp FM radio sound and then finally into a studio grade CD live burner. I have my studio monitors tied to the burner so that I hear exactly what the burner is going to record. That has worked out very well.
I have an HP pavillion with Cubase, which I don't really use too much. I prefer to play everything track by track from the keyboard because it allows me to do a better job of controlling the nuances of the individual instruments.
I have Sibelius (which I use for scoring and printing individual parts when they are to be played by a real orchestra.) I just finished scoring a piece for a University Symphony here in Atlanta. It will be performed at their spring concert on April 15 (tax day?). It's interesting that I had recorded the song that they will be performing in my studio before I scored it for the symphony - since it was the closing theme for a production late last year. I had to rearrange it for the symphony because of the absence of some instruments in the symphony such as the harp - which is included in the studio version of the song. If you would like to hear the studio version of the tune, go to www.digitalsoundtracks.com and click to select the samples page and then load down the closing theme from Angel in the Aisles. It's a good tune for demonstrating the range of the 2600.
My first professional scoring job was in 1981 - a film starring Tippi Hedren from Hitchcock's "the Birds" and well known veteran actor Troy Donahue. At that time I was doing radio and TV jingles with a jingle business I started in the 70's.
By the way, the jingle business is a very lucrative business if you're willing to get out and sell. It's also a great way to pay for a studio. I pretty much paid for my first studio with funds from my jingle business ("Audio Advertising"). You guys would crack up at our first jingle. It was for a pet grooming business called "The pampered pet." We spent hours with a 100 foot mic cord chasing my friends dog around the back yard trying to record some of his barks. Isn't this a glamarous business?
I also have a complete editing suite (Adobe Premiere 6.5 and after effects) and own a JVC miniDV for dumping tape to the computer so that I can do the complete sound design job - if needed. In fact, my wife and I incorporated a production company 2 years ago and, after completing 3 productions (2 of which have aired on Atlanta television) we are working on a documentary that I will be scoring later this year. My wife's a great writer and to open up more opportunities for her to write and me to score, we decided the production company was a good way to go. We bought a DVX100 24p camera and invested in lighting and sound equipment. It's been an exciting adventure.
Well, that's the report from snowy Atlanta. It's been great to read about what everyone's doing and using. Keep up the great work everyone!
Kindest Regards,
Hutch DeLoach
It's been busy around here - sorry I haven't responded sooner. I'm using a Kurzweil 2600xs completely loaded with the orchestral roms. It's been a real treat since I bougth it quite a few years ago. I run it into a Behringer mixer and, from there, into an aural exciter for that crisp FM radio sound and then finally into a studio grade CD live burner. I have my studio monitors tied to the burner so that I hear exactly what the burner is going to record. That has worked out very well.
I have an HP pavillion with Cubase, which I don't really use too much. I prefer to play everything track by track from the keyboard because it allows me to do a better job of controlling the nuances of the individual instruments.
I have Sibelius (which I use for scoring and printing individual parts when they are to be played by a real orchestra.) I just finished scoring a piece for a University Symphony here in Atlanta. It will be performed at their spring concert on April 15 (tax day?). It's interesting that I had recorded the song that they will be performing in my studio before I scored it for the symphony - since it was the closing theme for a production late last year. I had to rearrange it for the symphony because of the absence of some instruments in the symphony such as the harp - which is included in the studio version of the song. If you would like to hear the studio version of the tune, go to www.digitalsoundtracks.com and click to select the samples page and then load down the closing theme from Angel in the Aisles. It's a good tune for demonstrating the range of the 2600.
My first professional scoring job was in 1981 - a film starring Tippi Hedren from Hitchcock's "the Birds" and well known veteran actor Troy Donahue. At that time I was doing radio and TV jingles with a jingle business I started in the 70's.
By the way, the jingle business is a very lucrative business if you're willing to get out and sell. It's also a great way to pay for a studio. I pretty much paid for my first studio with funds from my jingle business ("Audio Advertising"). You guys would crack up at our first jingle. It was for a pet grooming business called "The pampered pet." We spent hours with a 100 foot mic cord chasing my friends dog around the back yard trying to record some of his barks. Isn't this a glamarous business?
I also have a complete editing suite (Adobe Premiere 6.5 and after effects) and own a JVC miniDV for dumping tape to the computer so that I can do the complete sound design job - if needed. In fact, my wife and I incorporated a production company 2 years ago and, after completing 3 productions (2 of which have aired on Atlanta television) we are working on a documentary that I will be scoring later this year. My wife's a great writer and to open up more opportunities for her to write and me to score, we decided the production company was a good way to go. We bought a DVX100 24p camera and invested in lighting and sound equipment. It's been an exciting adventure.
Well, that's the report from snowy Atlanta. It's been great to read about what everyone's doing and using. Keep up the great work everyone!
Kindest Regards,
Hutch DeLoach
pokewowplayer1 said:
LOL! Poke your something.
I agree
Music is a key element to the film. In my mind as a Producer/Director the score is as important as the actors, DP, production design ect. If it's on the screen or in this case in our ears it should be paid for, on some level. There should always be room for negotiation, like back end points and if the music can be used again on other projects, that starts the scale sliding to higher or lower prices. A major point is often soundtrack album and who retains thoes rights as well.
In the end I think it's fair and just especially if the film has any potential to earn money.
Peace,
Redemption
www.redemptionmovie.com
Music is a key element to the film. In my mind as a Producer/Director the score is as important as the actors, DP, production design ect. If it's on the screen or in this case in our ears it should be paid for, on some level. There should always be room for negotiation, like back end points and if the music can be used again on other projects, that starts the scale sliding to higher or lower prices. A major point is often soundtrack album and who retains thoes rights as well.
In the end I think it's fair and just especially if the film has any potential to earn money.
Peace,
Redemption
www.redemptionmovie.com
Missing the point
I wish I'd found this thread earlier, as I'm post production right now and am about to commission a musician.
I think a lot of this debate misses the point. The important thing is to get the right music and the right person on the project. More often than not, it is the soundtrack that makes the movie. The fact that you can get stuff for free, shouldn't ever be the motivation for using it.
In my opinion, no body should ever be asked to just give their work away for nothing. When I was running writing teams in Radio, I would hire someone who had never made a living as a writer before, but who showed promise. The funny thing was, that as soon as they got a wage, as soon as someone said "You are worth $35,000 + dollars a year as a writer" they all became better writers, almost over night. There is something about being taken seriously as a professional (ie. paid) that ups people's game.
This is the reason that I have always prefered defered payment, as a way of securing services, when I haven't had the money up front. The payment is always at union scale for the job and is subject to the project going into profit. Most people understand this and at least we give them a contract which states that they will get paid, when we do. All my people also understand that I am at the back of the payment cue and that they will get paid before I do. This my motivation to get the right price for the project and also my debt of obligation to the people who invest their time and talent in my projects.
Asking people to work for free is like asking for them to pay for your movie, offering defered payments is asking them to become partners in the project.
The other reason for approaching the issue like this, is that it means that you have firm legal ownership of the rights to the music and that means that you won't have to sort out those issues once a distribution company has expressed an interest. Anyone who is using music provided for free, without contracts in place, is just asking for legal hassles further down the line.
The bottom line is, that if you think that someone's music is good enough to be on your film, you have a moral obligation to pay them for it. If you don't have the money then you have to come to a fair agreeement that benefits both them and you. This may mean that, in fact, they never recieve any payment. However, they must have gained in some tangible way, and a credit on a short film, made by someone nobody has ever heard of, probably isn't enough. At the very least they should get multiple copies of the final piece to use as showreel material and the film maker should make sure that the film gets seen. If they are working for you based on exposure, then at least you can do that well, getting the film out to festivals and working hard to promote the piece.
I think the other side of this is that sometimes film makers don't want to work with "professionals" because they haven't sufficient confidence in themselves as professional film makers. In other words, "no one will pay me, why should I pay you." The funny thing is, the best way to start being a professional film maker, worthy of being paid for your work, is to start treating the people you work as professionals. Trust me, you get better work and at the end of the day you don't get let down, because you have contracts in place.
I wish I'd found this thread earlier, as I'm post production right now and am about to commission a musician.
I think a lot of this debate misses the point. The important thing is to get the right music and the right person on the project. More often than not, it is the soundtrack that makes the movie. The fact that you can get stuff for free, shouldn't ever be the motivation for using it.
In my opinion, no body should ever be asked to just give their work away for nothing. When I was running writing teams in Radio, I would hire someone who had never made a living as a writer before, but who showed promise. The funny thing was, that as soon as they got a wage, as soon as someone said "You are worth $35,000 + dollars a year as a writer" they all became better writers, almost over night. There is something about being taken seriously as a professional (ie. paid) that ups people's game.
This is the reason that I have always prefered defered payment, as a way of securing services, when I haven't had the money up front. The payment is always at union scale for the job and is subject to the project going into profit. Most people understand this and at least we give them a contract which states that they will get paid, when we do. All my people also understand that I am at the back of the payment cue and that they will get paid before I do. This my motivation to get the right price for the project and also my debt of obligation to the people who invest their time and talent in my projects.
Asking people to work for free is like asking for them to pay for your movie, offering defered payments is asking them to become partners in the project.
The other reason for approaching the issue like this, is that it means that you have firm legal ownership of the rights to the music and that means that you won't have to sort out those issues once a distribution company has expressed an interest. Anyone who is using music provided for free, without contracts in place, is just asking for legal hassles further down the line.
The bottom line is, that if you think that someone's music is good enough to be on your film, you have a moral obligation to pay them for it. If you don't have the money then you have to come to a fair agreeement that benefits both them and you. This may mean that, in fact, they never recieve any payment. However, they must have gained in some tangible way, and a credit on a short film, made by someone nobody has ever heard of, probably isn't enough. At the very least they should get multiple copies of the final piece to use as showreel material and the film maker should make sure that the film gets seen. If they are working for you based on exposure, then at least you can do that well, getting the film out to festivals and working hard to promote the piece.
I think the other side of this is that sometimes film makers don't want to work with "professionals" because they haven't sufficient confidence in themselves as professional film makers. In other words, "no one will pay me, why should I pay you." The funny thing is, the best way to start being a professional film maker, worthy of being paid for your work, is to start treating the people you work as professionals. Trust me, you get better work and at the end of the day you don't get let down, because you have contracts in place.
My thanks to Redemption and Clive. Wow!
Stephen,
I just got to listen to your music and look at your credits and there is no way you should be doing stuff for free unless it is a student. I might be calling you for my next project and I will pay!!!!
Peace,
SAR
www.redemptionmovie.com
I just got to listen to your music and look at your credits and there is no way you should be doing stuff for free unless it is a student. I might be calling you for my next project and I will pay!!!!
Peace,
SAR
www.redemptionmovie.com
Sounds promising Stephen - I'd ask him to put that in writing!
(Oh, but he just has....)
I have to agree with Clive about the professionalism thing. I know that before I started out professionally, I didn't act professionally - hell, I was just starting to get into making music, and the whole thing was just a bit of fun. But since I started talking the whole thing seriously, I started treating people professionally, even if they're just students having fun. And it's amazing the difference it makes, both to them and to me.
I also think it's great having this two-way, open communication with composers and, well, everyone else!
(Oh, but he just has....)
I have to agree with Clive about the professionalism thing. I know that before I started out professionally, I didn't act professionally - hell, I was just starting to get into making music, and the whole thing was just a bit of fun. But since I started talking the whole thing seriously, I started treating people professionally, even if they're just students having fun. And it's amazing the difference it makes, both to them and to me.
I also think it's great having this two-way, open communication with composers and, well, everyone else!
In most cases (especially in the indie world) a deferred payment contract is ultimately the same as "free." Many who say they will not work for free often include that they will not work with a deferred payment contract contingent on the project making money.
Stephen's comment about the producers on a no budget project still needing to come up with a small amount of pay led me to the impression that he, and perhaps others on this thread, would not work with a deferred payment contract. Other's comments about "bills to pay" helped lead me to that conclusion.
Hopefully I'm hearing something different because I have always considered free and deferred payment to be pretty equal in nature when all things are said and done - the difference being the latter is more professional, tends to build long-term relationships, suggests good will, an on occassion actually results in a check being cut.
I have offered such contracts on most of the projects I have produced and have been on the receiving end of them as well for any serious projects I have scored. Maybe we're all saying the same thing here?
Regards,
Hutch
Stephen's comment about the producers on a no budget project still needing to come up with a small amount of pay led me to the impression that he, and perhaps others on this thread, would not work with a deferred payment contract. Other's comments about "bills to pay" helped lead me to that conclusion.
Hopefully I'm hearing something different because I have always considered free and deferred payment to be pretty equal in nature when all things are said and done - the difference being the latter is more professional, tends to build long-term relationships, suggests good will, an on occassion actually results in a check being cut.
I have offered such contracts on most of the projects I have produced and have been on the receiving end of them as well for any serious projects I have scored. Maybe we're all saying the same thing here?
Regards,
Hutch
Hutch,
I think we are all saying the same thing, at least from my point of view. In the past as a crew member I have taken deferred payment, although I have never received a check.
As a producer I prefer to make a small cash sum (shows true good faith) and deferment in some cases a piece of the film. As you said it does foster long-term relationships.
This is a great thread, a lot of good info for everyone.
Peace,
Redemption
www.redemptionmovie.com
I think we are all saying the same thing, at least from my point of view. In the past as a crew member I have taken deferred payment, although I have never received a check.
As a producer I prefer to make a small cash sum (shows true good faith) and deferment in some cases a piece of the film. As you said it does foster long-term relationships.
This is a great thread, a lot of good info for everyone.
Peace,
Redemption
www.redemptionmovie.com
Hutch, I couldn't put it any better.
Every gig has to be looked at on their own merit - personally, I'm very happy to work for a lo/no/deferred payment, as a means to build up relationships and experience. In fact, I'm currently working on 2 on that basis, with a third coming up next month.
Obviously, I cannot afford to do this indefinitely, though, and at some point I feel that I will have to start charging where appropriate. That does not mean that I'll never do any more lo/no/def gigs though!
You guys are right, defered payments do get abused.
I've turned down work on films in the past, when I was offered defered payments, simply because the work was on a short and the producer was not being straight with me about their funding situation. Short films almost never make money back and therefore a defered payment is "working for free." The offer of the deferment on most shorts is either dis-honest or niave. On shorts, I'd rather just go out and help out my mates for a few days, than have someone try to sucker me into believing there was a wage attached.
However, a feature, shot on a fully professional format, has a much higher chance of making money back and a defered payment isn't the same thing. I do however think it's sensible to go in with the attitude that you may never see that money back. I think it's important to remember that on projects that are funded via good will (defered payments), that the composer is in the same situation as everyone else on the project. It is their judgement call as to the "marketability" of the project. I do think it's worth asking the Producer where they intend to sell the product, whether they have distribution arranged up front etc. The clearer the Producer's business plan for the feature, the better your chance of being paid. If the answer is "we'll show it around" or "we'll worry about that when the picture is made," chances are that the film will run into distribution problems and payment is less likely. A Producer that can list the distributors that the film is going to be offered to and explain why this film meets their buying profile is a much betteer bet.
On features the thing to watch with defered payments is the position that you are in, in the order of payment. The film will have to put it's cash investors at the front of the list, a good producer will put cast and crew next, with themselves at the back of that list. This isn't always the case.
I think that the bottom line is, that you find people that you like to work with and you trust, you stick with them and don't work for people you aren't sure about. It's in everyone's interest to take good care of the people we work with. The one thing that I insist on, with any project that we undertake, is we pay a wage when we can and if people come out to work for us without a wage, then we try to put as much paid business their way as possible.
I've turned down work on films in the past, when I was offered defered payments, simply because the work was on a short and the producer was not being straight with me about their funding situation. Short films almost never make money back and therefore a defered payment is "working for free." The offer of the deferment on most shorts is either dis-honest or niave. On shorts, I'd rather just go out and help out my mates for a few days, than have someone try to sucker me into believing there was a wage attached.
However, a feature, shot on a fully professional format, has a much higher chance of making money back and a defered payment isn't the same thing. I do however think it's sensible to go in with the attitude that you may never see that money back. I think it's important to remember that on projects that are funded via good will (defered payments), that the composer is in the same situation as everyone else on the project. It is their judgement call as to the "marketability" of the project. I do think it's worth asking the Producer where they intend to sell the product, whether they have distribution arranged up front etc. The clearer the Producer's business plan for the feature, the better your chance of being paid. If the answer is "we'll show it around" or "we'll worry about that when the picture is made," chances are that the film will run into distribution problems and payment is less likely. A Producer that can list the distributors that the film is going to be offered to and explain why this film meets their buying profile is a much betteer bet.
On features the thing to watch with defered payments is the position that you are in, in the order of payment. The film will have to put it's cash investors at the front of the list, a good producer will put cast and crew next, with themselves at the back of that list. This isn't always the case.
I think that the bottom line is, that you find people that you like to work with and you trust, you stick with them and don't work for people you aren't sure about. It's in everyone's interest to take good care of the people we work with. The one thing that I insist on, with any project that we undertake, is we pay a wage when we can and if people come out to work for us without a wage, then we try to put as much paid business their way as possible.
Clive & Redemption,
Please feel free to call me for any film you do!
Please feel free to call me for any film you do!
Good Points (especially about the leagl aspect).
Poke
Poke
Turning to pop songs instead of scoring, I've run into producers who have put songs into their films only to find themselves in a legal nightmare once they get a distributor interested. They put the song in the film without asking permission and all of a sudden they can't use that key song, vital to the story, because now they have to pay for it and can't afford it. (And probably getting sued for using it in the first place).
Master Use & Sync Licenses are usually not cheap if you go beyond the festival-type license. Should they have thought of that at the beginning? Do you think the publishers of that song would be interested in a backend deal?
There are a lot of legal issues surrounding copyrighted music. I would urge filmmakers to do some homework so they can be prepared and put out a great film with as little music-legal trouble as possible. Filmmakers should know about Master Use, Sync, Re-use fees, work-for hire, authorship, and basic copyright laws and know the process of securing the rights to a song. A little knowledge is a powerful thing.
Master Use & Sync Licenses are usually not cheap if you go beyond the festival-type license. Should they have thought of that at the beginning? Do you think the publishers of that song would be interested in a backend deal?
There are a lot of legal issues surrounding copyrighted music. I would urge filmmakers to do some homework so they can be prepared and put out a great film with as little music-legal trouble as possible. Filmmakers should know about Master Use, Sync, Re-use fees, work-for hire, authorship, and basic copyright laws and know the process of securing the rights to a song. A little knowledge is a powerful thing.
Thanks for the advice, man. Maybe you could enlighten us on the fundamental (basic) laws of wich you speak, and how to do things legally...(you don't have to if you don't want to, of course).