Can a villain truly be nasty?

[Aspiring Mogul]

I seem to remember a thread where they said all viallains have to be likable in some way.

I don't know if that's true, but I have a story where the bad guy is, tentatively, not likable. He's cheats, steals, and murders, so everyone would cheer if and when he gets his just rewards.

I am thinking of the original Terminator, who was unlikable, but what're your thoughts on this?

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Right, but what is the reason behind it? Is this a personal experience and you want to make sure they are not liked? Were you a marine and find it dishonorable so want to make sure they are disliked? Or is this total fiction, and this is a creative decision?

Basically you don't want Point Break or Heat (man I love Heat, great flick).

Also likable is different than being liked. You shouldn't write them as dry/dull/uninteresting unless you have a reason.

I was never a Marine; that's just a creative decision, because I don't want another Khan Noonien Singh, a likable villain.

 

[indietalk]

Gotcha

 

[Mr.Struggle]

Villains don't have to be likable, but they can't be evil. No person thinks their actions are evil. People have an amazing ability to justify our actions. As long as their motivation is relativistic and character-driven then it is fine if they aren't likable.

 

[Samjarmin]

Good question

That's a really good question to explore.
My opinion is that villains are much more interesting when portrayed as '3D' characters rather than either good or evil. I mean I think people aren't really pure good or pure evil and have aspects of both.
One of the things I like about game of thrones is the ability to make me hate and love the characters as the seasons continue. I hated Jamie Lannister in the first season and loved seeing his hand cut off further on. But now he's one of my favourite characters and I like him. I think it was when he explained to another character that he watched the targaryan king kill women and children and so went against his oath and stabbed him. Completely changed his character dynamic for me.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I enjoy characters that make you think philosophically about good and evil in people and their actions.
Although I do acknowledge that's not best for all films, we are meant to hate Jason vorhees for killing horny teenagers, but then if people came to your house and garden and started having sex all over the place, when your like 30 and haven't even reached first Base, you'd be pissed off too.

 

[Samjarmin]

Good post, Scoopicman. I want my character to be interesting and nasty but not likable. Basically, he is an Space Marine officer who, with those under him, kills his Marine commanding officer and runs off with stolen money. He and his subordinate thugs then go around pillaging and pirating.

My team of heroes are Marines, and they will go all out to get the bad guys, because the Marines have a credo that, if you kill an officer, they will do everything to get you. This is like Mutiny on the Bounty, except I want a difference where the mutineers are totally unlikable thugs.

Good idea. You could always throw in some PTSD or some kind of 'excuse' that the mutineers use to justify their own actions? Maybe a life of killing people has taken its toll and now they want to fight or kill who they want instead of being told to 'follow order's.
Have you heard that story about the scorpion and the frog? Scorpion wants to get across the river but convinces a frog to take it across on its back, frog is hesitant, scorpion explains they will both die if the scorpion stings it in the river. They get halfway across and the scorpion stings the frog. The frog says 'why did you do that, we will both die now', the scorpion says 'i can't help it, it's my nature, I'm a scorpion'.
Maybe the story can help you with the mutineers characters? They are evil and kill but why? Have they always been that way or were they turned that way by killing? I watched rambo first blood the other day, his breakdown at the end in the police station shows the extend of his psychological breakdown and PTSD.
Let me know what you decide for your characters as Ive created a story myself (much different) but mine only has 3 characters so how people create and dialogue their characters would be interesting to hear.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Good idea. You could always throw in some PTSD or some kind of 'excuse' that the mutineers use to justify their own actions? Maybe a life of killing people has taken its toll and now they want to fight or kill who they want instead of being told to 'follow order's.
Have you heard that story about the scorpion and the frog? Scorpion wants to get across the river but convinces a frog to take it across on its back, frog is hesitant, scorpion explains they will both die if the scorpion stings it in the river. They get halfway across and the scorpion stings the frog. The frog says 'why did you do that, we will both die now', the scorpion says 'i can't help it, it's my nature, I'm a scorpion'.
Maybe the story can help you with the mutineers characters? They are evil and kill but why? Have they always been that way or were they turned that way by killing? I watched rambo first blood the other day, his breakdown at the end in the police station shows the extend of his psychological breakdown and PTSD.
Let me know what you decide for your characters as Ive created a story myself (much different) but mine only has 3 characters so how people create and dialogue their characters would be interesting to hear.

Hi Samjarmin,

I know about the story of the scorpion and the frog, which was referenced in the initial episode of Star Trek: Voyager, when the Borg, 7 of 9 was introduced. The PTSD was also used in the ST: NG episode, "The Forgotten".

That's why I don't want to use either, because I want to write something different. These guys are just thugs, who can't help but steal.

My story goes like this - after the war, those Marines kill their CO and run off to the wild lands (in the outer edges of the galactic arm). The crew goes after them, and the story is that, even in the frontier, law and order will be needed. Having PTSD would distract from that message.

 

[Samjarmin]

Hi Samjarmin,

I know about the story of the scorpion and the frog, which was referenced in the initial episode of Star Trek: Voyager, when the Borg, 7 of 9 was introduced. The PTSD was also used in the ST: NG episode, "The Forgotten".

That's why I don't want to use either, because I want to write something different. These guys are just thugs, who can't help but steal.

My story goes like this - after the war, those Marines kill their CO and run off to the wild lands (in the outer edges of the galactic arm). The crew goes after them, and the story is that, even in the frontier, law and order will be needed. Having PTSD would distract from that message.

I see what you mean. Yeah it would distract from what you want to explore. I like your idea, Sci fi is always good. Also wanted to say your star trek knowledge is impressive!!

Your story sounds good, how you have explained it reminds me of my high school history lessons on bringing law and order to the west of the usa, how difficult it was and how it was needed and the contrast between the law and order of the East against the lawless West.
I'm new to film making and by that I mean I'm a complete noob, I was wondering how you go ahead to make a Sci fi film? Are you going through a studio with a budget or are you able to do most things yourself like cgi etc?

Just out of interest have you seen Tom hardy in a two/three part adaptation of martine mccolls 'the take' (I think it's called that). He plays a villain in the programme but what I found the most disturbing about his character was he was so unpredictable, you couldn't tell what was going through his mind or how he would react.

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[Alcove Audio]

Hannibal Lector, though, was somewhat likable, though I can't quite definite how he is likable.

Not likable, hypnotic/magnetic may be more applicable. Probably true of most "truly nasty" villains, actual and fictional.

 

[maz]

Not likable, hypnotic/magnetic may be more applicable. Probably true of most "truly nasty" villains, actual and fictional.

It goes back to what I mentioned in my first reply - that kind of charisma that many truly evil people have, that has people following them without really knowing why.

Surely Lecter wasn't the villain of that movie though? It's been a long time since I saw it.

 

[harmonica44]

Lecter was more of a supporting character than an antagonist. The real antagonist of Silence of the Lambs is Buffalo Bill. He's an example of a truly nasty unsympathetic villain. He is such a mustache twirler, that I didn't feel sorry for him at all when he met his demise. And the movie won best picture, so a lot of people probably do not mind unsympathetic villains, if he counts?

 

[maz]

Lecter was more of a supporting character than an antagonist. The real antagonist of Silence of the Lambs is Buffalo Bill. He's an example of a truly nasty unsympathetic villain. He is such a mustache twirler, that I didn't feel sorry for him at all when he met his demise. And the movie won best picture, so a lot of people probably do not mind unsympathetic villains, if he counts?

If I remember the movie correctly (and it has been over 20 years since I saw it), Lecter's role is that of a mentor - maybe an anti-mentor given his predelictions?

 

[indietalk]

Technical advisor of sorts... still a villain but not the villain.

 

[harmonica44]

Mentor or technical adviser then . In one of the books I have on screenwriting, "The Anatomy of Story", Lecter is described as the 'fake opponent ally' character. So that's another label as well, I guess.

But even if he is not the true villain, Buffalo Bill is still a good example, cause he is a pure unsympathetic mustache twirler type.

 

[rabbimaster]

I think someone mentioned this already but "likability" is somewhat moot. It's really about having a villain who is interesting whether this means charisma, charm, motivation as long as they are 3D.

I suppose you could have a villain who is 100% evil in genre filmaking whom the audience is just wanting them to meet a grisly end ala Joffrey but you are somewhat entering the realm of pantomime. In this case you had better have a mighty charismatic actor. Empathy I think is key to engaging in characterization and plus the world aint black and white so why make charecters so

 

[Firm1]

I seem to remember a thread where they said all viallains have to be likable in some way.

I don't know if that's true, but I have a story where the bad guy is, tentatively, not likable. He's cheats, steals, and murders, so everyone would cheer if and when he gets his just rewards.

I am thinking of the original Terminator, who was unlikable, but what're your thoughts on this?

I don't think that the protagonist or the antagonist need to be liked or disliked. That's entirely up to the writer and story. But I do think that your audience should at least understand both characters and where they're coming from. I think a lot of people get confused and assume that they should like them. They can certainly empathize with them, but they don't have to. They just gotta know them.