Budget of 3500-4000

S

sonofsam

Going to be an urban documentary. There will be a LOT of low level light scenes because a lot of the shots will be on city streets at night. There will also be a lot of building scenes and stuff like that (urban exploration) so we won't be able to set up a bunch of lighting since there wont be power, and we can't be there for too long. Any recommendations on a camera? Or suggestions on the best way to go about this?

Just an example of one scene will be going into an abandoned mental hospital in the middle of the night.
 
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The most popular choice for that kind of thing at the moment is the Canon DSLRs, which with the right lenses are fantastic in low-light. There was an urban exploration film in the sewers and subways of New York posted here a while ago, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was called - I think they shot with the 5D Mk. II and a 24mm f/1.4 L. You'll also need some decent audio equipment - I'd imagine wireless lavs would be best for this kind of thing, maybe in combination with a shotgun mic on the camera; a mic on a boom pole is going to be far too unwieldy for what you're planning.
 
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There is an outstanding "Underworld" documentary on Vimeo, I can't seem to track it down. Whether that's the correct title or not.

A guy takes you through the old underground tunnels, and underground railways, that are no longer in use. He tops it off by scaling Manhattan bridge (I think it's Manhattan).

If i track it down, i'll be sure to post. Inspiring it was.
 
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Papertwinproductions said:
There is an outstanding "Underworld" documentary on Vimeo, I can't seem to track it down. Whether that's the correct title or not.

A guy takes you through the old underground tunnels, and underground railways, that are no longer in use. He tops it off by scaling Manhattan bridge (I think it's Manhattan).

If i track it down, i'll be sure to post. Inspiring it was.
Click to expand...

That's the one I was thinking of, cheers! It's called Undercity…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWF3IDk9Gek
 
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I noticed he used an audio recorder - which seems to be
essential when using the DSLR's.

Question for those of you using DSLR's for documentaries:
Do you use the on camera mic? Do you plug a mic into the
camera?
 
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I don't think that DSLRs are a very good option for documentaries.

The audio recording, as Rik alludes to, is going to be a bit of a nightmare if you can't plug straight into the camera. I'm assuming that an 'urban documentary' will involve a fair amount of run and gun footage, rather than sit down interviews?

Also you will need to get a rig for the DSLR if you are going to use it for documentaries because, unless you put a tripod down, they're simply not steady enough for unplanned shooting.

Basically, to cut a long story short, I think there are probably better options within your price range especially if you were willing to buy second hand and possibly sell it off when you're done. But, with audio equipment, that's going to be pushing at the very top end of what you want to spend.
 
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I wouldn't normally use DSLR as my first choice for a documentary, but I think a documentary that will be shot primarily at night, on city streets, is a definite exception. In these conditions, I feel like DSLR is a must.

directorik, I'm not sure that there's much of an answer to your question, because I'm not sure how many people are using DSLR for documentaries. If I were to do it, I would definitely want a boom-op, with a portable audio recorder and a shotgun mic.
 
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That's what I was thinking. But when sonofsam asked about a
camera for a doc, the answer was a DSLR.

This week I'm shooting some footage for the Navy. Can't use
lights, can't use another person (audio) so I'm shooting with
my only option. My JVC HM100. So far it has held up will in
low light conditions. And the audio (Sennheiser MKH 416) is
pretty good, too - attached to the camera.
 
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That's so weird, cause i actually watched that Undercity documentary 3-4 days ago while randomly on Vimeo.. Didn't cross my mind to check the video details..

from his video:

"Shot on a canon 5d mkii with canon 24 f/1.4 (version 1) with the zacuto rapid fire, Zoom H4N and a sennheiser g2 wireless lav. The zacuto was really great at being there when I needed it but also staying out of the way."

The main thing i'm concerned about is, for a beginner, will all of this be extremely hard to learn to use properly (mainly learning the audio etc) ?

The editing won't be a problem as it is going to be outsourced to a professional, but the shooting etc will have to be done by us (not trained whatsoever) because it will be hard to convince a professional videographer to tag along for what we're doing..

With that setup he has, is it a lavaliar mic or ? Also, is it recorded separately from the video and then syncd in post production? Basically what i'm asking is it a plug and play operation... like can the mic can be plugged into the camera?
 
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It's not so difficult to learn. However, with a very narrow depth of field
(which is what many people feels makes the "film) there is a need to
constantly ride focus - very little in the frame is in focus. In my opinion,
that's difficult especially when shooting a documentary. Same goes for
audio. Using a separate audio recorder isn't difficult to learn, but it does
require another person. And getting good at using the boom pole to get
the best audio does take time and skill.

A mic can be plugged into a DSLR camera, but the audio is notoriously
poor on those cameras. After all, video is a secondary objective in the
making of those cameras and audio is merely an afterthought.

If you will always have two people (camera and audio) then the set up
used by Andrew Wonder is a fine choice. If it's mostly going to be one
person, then a traditional camcorder might be the better choice for what
you want to do. As Papertwin mentioned, you will need a shoulder mount
and I'd suggest a nice follow focus unit and mattebox, too.
 
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directorik said:
It's not so difficult to learn. However, with a very narrow depth of field
(which is what many people feels makes the "film) there is a need to
constantly ride focus - very little in the frame is in focus. In my opinion,
that's difficult especially when shooting a documentary. Same goes for
audio. Using a separate audio recorder isn't difficult to learn, but it does
require another person. And getting good at using the boom pole to get
the best audio does take time and skill.

A mic can be plugged into a DSLR camera, but the audio is notoriously
poor on those cameras. After all, video is a secondary objective in the
making of those cameras and audio is merely an afterthought.

If you will always have two people (camera and audio) then the set up
used by Andrew Wonder is a fine choice. If it's mostly going to be one
person, then a traditional camcorder might be the better choice for what
you want to do. As Papertwin mentioned, you will need a shoulder mount
and I'd suggest a nice follow focus unit and mattebox, too.
Click to expand...

Seems as though maybe the DSLR isn't the best option for me then. Are there any other cameras you can suggest? Mostly there will be 2 people with me, but i don't really want to have 1 guy dedicated to audio. I was thinking of just having a shotgun mic on the camerea and a lav mic on myself while while walking in front of the camera.


Forgot to also thanks to everyone who has contributed in this thread. Your insight is GREATLY appreciated.
 
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Would JVC HM100 be okay for something like this? How does it perform in very low level lighting?

Maybe i could being some sort of light with us, or would that ruin the shot?
 
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sonofsam said:
there will be 2 people with me, but i don't really want to have 1 guy dedicated to audio.
Click to expand...
In my opinion, if you are going to have one people with you, having one
dedicated to audio will be a huge advantage. So many movie makers
(especially documentary makers) put audio near the bottom of their priorities.
Sometimes it's unavoidable. For my current project I begged and pleaded
to have an audio person with me but was denied - the Navy will only allow
one civilian where I'm going. You will have two other people.

Anyway, it's your project so you know your needs better than I do. Any
video camera in your price range with a mic input (look for an XLR input)
will be fine. As others have pointed out, they may not be as good as a DSLR
in low light and you won't get the very narrow DOF so many people want,
there there are always compromises made.

Because I own and use the JVC HM100 that would be my suggestion. Pushing
your price range, but an excellent camera. If that's not what you want, pop
over to B&H Photo and you can search by price. Any Canon, Panasonic, Sony
or JVC in your range will be an excellent choice.
 
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Aother good point by Rik. In those dark situations you're going to have to have a pretty good hand riding focus constantly because the DOF is going to be razor thin. A prosumer cam, even an SD one like a DVX might not be a bad choice. It would leave lots of budget wiggle room for a nice shoulder mount, maybe even a budget steadicam unit.
 
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If you are really running and gunning at night, how about the Canon HFS100. It is what i use for adventure races. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36zvcV4jfBE This was shot with a Princeton Tec Headlamp. I know it isn't a 'real" camera but it works great in low light and if you don't know what you are doing (like me). I use either the Canon shot gun mic or a Rode SVM. In 3 full length films I haven't had to sub title yet.My sound is getting better(thanks all here)
Hope this helps. Oh yeah it is cheap. I like it because the small size is not threatening when shooting.
 
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Yeah so, originally, I thought the recommendation of DSLR was one I agreed with, simply because of the tremendous ability to shoot in low light. I just randomly realized the flaw in this logic, however.

In order to take full advantage of low-light capability of a DSLR, you need a really low f-stop, so you're going to need a prime for that. Uh, primes don't zoom. And in documentary shooting, when you're out and about following someone, and you need to set up shots on the fly, you really need to adjust zoom quickly. Needless to say, you're not going to want to have to change lenses in between shots, so forget that. And if you use a zoom lens, the f-stop isn't going to be low enough to make a huge difference between DSLR and camcorder, in regards to low-light.

So, I'd definitely go with one of the camcorders that these other guys are recommending.
 
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